SPEAKER_01: 0:10

Hello and welcome to Running with Problems. My name is John Eisen.

SPEAKER_02: 0:14

I'm Branda Williamson.

SPEAKER_01: 0:15

Running with Problems is a podcast about runners and the problems they inevitably face. Today on the podcast, we have Amelia Boone.

SPEAKER_02: 0:22

Yeah, very exciting guest for us.

SPEAKER_01: 0:25

I am so stoked to share this podcast with y'all. I've been dreaming of having Amelia on the podcast. I feel like when we started a podcast named Running with Problems, like Amelia Boone came to mind, right?

SPEAKER_02: 0:35

And we'll talk about why.

SPEAKER_01: 0:36

Yeah, we'll get into that. But before that, Miranda, how are you doing?

SPEAKER_02: 0:40

I'm doing good. I ran Pike's Peak this weekend while you were out of town putting on some races.

SPEAKER_01: 0:48

How was Pikes Peak?

SPEAKER_02: 0:49

It was like Disneyland a little bit.

unknown: 0:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 0:52

Yeah, the top of it can is basically a Disneyland gift shop.

SPEAKER_02: 0:57

It was. And um the experience was a lot of folks out there who are less experienced trail adventurers doing probably the biggest thing in their life. That's what it felt like.

SPEAKER_01: 1:11

Well, the bar trail up to Pikes Peak is very accessible, as is the incline. And so if you're in Colorado Springs, you can get onto the bar trail pretty pr pretty easily. You can drive to the top of Pikes Peak. So being so accessible, it allows people who are less uh adventurous to have a mountain experience. Yeah. And that's really great.

SPEAKER_02: 1:35

Yes. And for the most part, it was really great because most people were like, what time did you start? And they started at 6 a.m. and we're passing them, and we started at 8 30, and they're like, Oh wow, you're so impressive. And then people cheering us on, and just mostly people being super impressed by us. But we did get some guy lecturing us about how we're no longer gonna have knees.

SPEAKER_01: 1:58

Oh yeah. You should really, you guys should stop running because your knees will hurt.

unknown: 2:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 2:05

I cannot put up with those people.

SPEAKER_02: 2:10

You know that's my most hated thing that people tell me about my running is that my knees are gonna be gone.

SPEAKER_01: 2:18

It's so rude. And it's also wrong. Like the reason your knees hurt when you run, accepting uh chronic issues that might occur in in any random person's body, but the general reason is because your muscles are not strong enough to accept the impact that happens when you run. Normally the muscles accept the impact, and if they're strong enough, then they don't tighten. And once they're once they start to tighten because they're not strong enough to accept the impact, that's when your knees start hurting because your joints and your tendons start getting pulled by the tightening muscles. So it's really just a function of how fast you start, how much you work on your strength that uh tells you how much your knees are gonna hurt. So this person is uh both wrong and annoyingly rude.

SPEAKER_02: 3:05

I agree. But for the most part, it was a fun adventure to go on if you want a lot of people to cheer you on, because it was other than the knee guy in ego boost. And actually, I told myself that he was just jealous that he was not able to run like we were.

SPEAKER_01: 3:19

Oh, he's so he's so jealous.

SPEAKER_02: 3:20

And we passed him when we were on our way down, and he was like clearly experiencing some altitude sickness and was like dead on the side of the trail. So, you know what?

SPEAKER_01: 3:29

His knees probably hurt.

SPEAKER_02: 3:32

How are you? How was your weekend? You had a big weekend.

SPEAKER_01: 3:35

I'm exhausted. I have I worked for at least 40 hours straight. Oh my gosh. Yeah, we we put on the 250Ks. So the West Lime Winder and the Saw Watch Ascent. I help Caleb and Kelsey with uh Freestone Endurance, put them on. And I was basically kind of RD for like like race directing, um, filling in for Caleb and Kelsey. Now, Kelsey is the race director of Westline Winder, and Caleb is the race director for Saw Watch Ascent. But this weekend we had so much uh unpredicted events happen that I sort of had to step up and do a lot of race director style things, which meant I was very busy all weekend. We had all sorts of fun things to deal with from you know course cutting to uh we had a runner that evacuated the course without telling us. So I was running around after the race trying to find them. We had to alter the course for the Sawwatch Ascent due to weather danger. Um, and yeah, it was just a wild weekend. Uh wow.

SPEAKER_02: 4:42

Sounds eventful.

SPEAKER_01: 4:43

It was I, yeah. I I got home Monday morning just totally exhausted. I'm still recovering. But yeah, I got a few fun stories from the weekend. Uh a few people came up to me and told me that they listened to my podcast.

SPEAKER_04: 4:58

What?

SPEAKER_01: 4:58

At least three. I didn't catch the name of two of them because I was so busy. Like, like they would catch me and like I'm running around trying to like solve some problem or find something for somebody. Like it was kind of crazy. Uh, so I wasn't able to chat with a couple of them, and I'm super sorry, but please, I encourage you if you see me, come talk to me. I would love to be talked to. I enjoy talking. But one of them, Dan Rabenowitz, I was able to have a conversation with. I just want to give a shout out to Dan. He ran his first Ultra at the Sawwatch Ascent. I just want to big congratulations to Dan. It was great to see you out there. And thanks to everyone who listens to the podcast and came to the races. Uh, you know, we really appreciate the commingling of these two uh communities.

SPEAKER_02: 5:44

Welcome to the Ultra community, Dan.

SPEAKER_01: 5:47

Yeah, that's great. Also, I got called an asshole while I was doing this. Uh, you want to all so on my somebody wrote ass on my car in the dust on the back of my uh on the back of my window. And I'm like, I I don't think I'm gonna ask. So here's the story. So I I drove up to an aid station, SHIELDS Aid Station. Now, I have like an hour and a half to visit the aid stations in between the start of the 30K and the first finisher of the 30K, because they run really fast on the 30K. And so I have this little bit of time to go visit all these aid stations, make sure they're set up right, and then I gotta get back to time to finish. So I pull up to Shields, it's a non-crewable aid station, but it's kind of on like open land, and sometimes people try to crew their. You just kind of tell them off anyway. Three girls were walking up and they were like, you know, I parked right in front of the trail. I saw a spot parked there, and I walked up, and these three girls are like, you know, that race up there, they asked us to move, we parked there, but they asked us to move. And I was like, it's okay, I'm with the race. But I didn't, you know, maybe I was dismissive because I was in a hurry, you know, like I just gotta get out, check in with these people and drive away. Also, what I didn't tell them was like, I'm going to drive away in three minutes.

SPEAKER_00: 7:00

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 7:00

But then this one girl said, Oh, well, I guess they saved the spot for you. And uh, and I was like, I didn't even respond to that. I was like, Yeah, yeah, they did. Yeah, that spots for me. I know, I know that spot's for me. So I can go up and check it up the state situation and then get the fuck out of here. Um, and then when I got back to my car, I had to ask written on it. Oh. And it really affected me. I was like, I'm not an asshole. Maybe I was.

SPEAKER_02: 7:26

Oh, well, they probably had something going on and were just disrupted by all of the commotion of the race. It had nothing to do with you.

SPEAKER_01: 7:37

I had to convince myself of that.

SPEAKER_02: 7:41

You're not an ass.

SPEAKER_01: 7:42

No, I hope not. You know who's not an ass. Amelia Boone.

SPEAKER_02: 7:47

Is that your transition? That was the best transition I had.

SPEAKER_01: 7:50

I, you know, I racked my brain for what a good transition would be. That's what I came up with.

SPEAKER_02: 7:54

But yeah, I loved our conversation with Amelia. I loved getting to know her. She was really interesting and easy to talk to. She is a prolific writer. So it's it's our job as interviewers in this setting not to um continue to have her say what she's already said, but to add to what she's already created and said. And when someone is such a prolific creator, content creator like Amelia Boone, um, it's both easy and challenging to find new and interesting things to uncover about her. And we, I think we did a great job. You and her had great chit chat and camaraderie about your shared Barclay experiences.

SPEAKER_01: 8:40

Oh, yeah, that was fun. That was, I mean, that's probably my favorite part of the conversation, talking about Barkley. Uh it was pretty good. And yeah, we just vibed. I mean, we talked about where to run when you visit Apple Park. Because we both work for Apple, which was a good part of the conversation. I don't know. It was funny. I think half of the conversation is me and Amelia just talking, and then half of the conversation is a real interview where you brought up serious topics.

SPEAKER_02: 9:05

That's correct. So the first half is John and Amelia chit-chatting.

SPEAKER_01: 9:11

Just vibing.

SPEAKER_02: 9:11

Vibing. And then the second half, I had some really uh deep questions I wanted to ask her because she has put a lot of content out there that really interests me. Um, some is about her struggle with an eating disorder, which is um fascinating to me. I have some shared experience with that. And other is about her um choice not to have children. And that's really interesting to me too.

SPEAKER_01: 9:38

Yeah, especially given our history with that topic.

SPEAKER_02: 9:42

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 9:42

So, yeah, I thought it was an amazing conversation, and I really hope you, the listeners, enjoy it.

SPEAKER_02: 9:48

And if you hear tapping.

SPEAKER_01: 9:50

Oh, yeah, tapping. That is because Amelia speaks with her hands. And and that is you get an audio like representation of Amelia speaking with her hands. Anytime you hear tapping, that is Amelia making some sort of gesture with her hands and hitting the table. Our podcast setup doesn't dampen table tapping very well. So you do that's if you ever hear the bumps in the podcast, that's could that's table tapping.

SPEAKER_02: 10:16

Yes. Sometimes I remember to tell people not to do that. Um, because we had that one time when one of our guests was popping the Pringles can over and over again. No.

SPEAKER_01: 10:30

I didn't even notice that, but you remember it so well. It's funny what we noticed.

SPEAKER_02: 10:35

Yes. Um, and so after that, I started in my my brief prepping people not to do that type of thing, but I totally forgot with Amelia.

SPEAKER_01: 10:45

Yeah, I was wondering if we should pause at the beginning and be like, stop that. But we didn't.

SPEAKER_02: 10:51

Yeah. And it life went on.

SPEAKER_01: 10:54

It will. Well, if you have any feedback for us, hit us up at running with problems on Instagram or podcast at runningwithproblems.run. We love to hear feedback. I loved hearing positive feedback from uh our listeners out there. I keep calling you guys the problematics. I don't know. Oh. Running with problematics.

SPEAKER_02: 11:17

I like my friend of the pod better.

SPEAKER_01: 11:22

Well, we'll keep workshopping what to call listeners of running with problems. If you have suggestions, let us know. And without further ado, here is Amelia Boone.

SPEAKER_02: 11:32

Enjoy.

SPEAKER_03: 11:40

Amelia Boone, welcome to the pod. Thank you so much for having me. Excited to be here.

SPEAKER_01: 11:45

Yeah, it's great to chat with you. Finally, you've been a dream guest of ours. Oh, thank you.

SPEAKER_02: 11:49

And I have so many things I want to ask you and talk about. I think the subjects are endless. One is you share a lot of your life through your writing. I do. Which um I appreciate. And I think you're a really excellent writer. Thank you. Um, John is also an excellent writer, and you too, I think, share a similar style.

SPEAKER_01: 12:08

Mm-hmm. Just sort of tell it as it is. Right. Like just keep but like be detailed, but also like get the arc down of like what you're trying to get across. At least that's at least my style.

SPEAKER_02: 12:22

Succinct, too. There isn't a lot of like unnecessary um metaphors or like nobody nobody has time for that.

SPEAKER_03: 12:30

You know, even if I'm like if people are gonna spend four minutes reading something, I'm like, okay, this is a four-minute Substack post. People can handle that. I'm not gonna make them read through like 20 minutes of something to get to the point, you know.

SPEAKER_01: 12:42

So you've been writing for a while and you went and now you're on like Substack.

SPEAKER_03: 12:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 12:46

Should I be on Substack?

SPEAKER_03: 12:48

I guess it just depends. I the reason I went to Substack was um because frankly, and this is sad as somebody who's tech adjacent, is that my website got too complicated for me to like figure out on my own. And so I was like, you know what's an easier interface? Substack. Uh so I guess it just like depends. I miss the old style like blogging where everybody just like blogged. Um, but it is useful, at least with Substack. You kind of get like people get the reminder in their inbox if they want it. But then sometimes I'm also like, oh, I don't want to bother you by sending something out into your inbox. So uh and some people don't like it because you technically don't, I guess, own the, you know, it's like on somebody else's platform.

SPEAKER_01: 13:33

That doesn't really bother me that much, but yeah, you can always like copy it off.

SPEAKER_03: 13:37

Exactly. I'm not like I'm like I have copies on Microsoft Word, you know, it's it's fine.

SPEAKER_01: 13:43

I've been I've been writing on my blog website for a while for I don't know, 10, 15 years now. And I'm like, I'm kind of tied to it. I don't want to let it go.

SPEAKER_03: 13:53

Absolutely. No, I mean I I I get that. If you go go back like through like old, I started writing on like a blog spot back in the day. I think it was like 2010. I started writing on like the old blog spot and then like moved all of those over to the website and then moved over to Substack. So, you know, who knows? Let's see where it goes.

SPEAKER_02: 14:12

Have you kept like a race report for most of your big events?

SPEAKER_03: 14:16

I used to do a lot of race reports. I've gotten away from it, I guess, in terms, I guess in terms of true race reports, which is funny because I'm always thinking, I'm like, oh, nobody wants a report of how the actual race is. But then I know when I go to run 100 or like run 100s, I look for race reports because it's helpful. Yeah. It's actually like I'm like, the only people who care about this are the people who are going to go run that race. But at the same time, there are actually a lot of those people out there, depending on the race. So a part of me is like maybe I should get back to more like traditional type of race reports, like, hey, these are the really hard sections, or at least for me they were like, watch out for this, etc. Um, I think now with so many ultras being, you know, live streamed that people the you're there are more and more ways to access that kind of stuff beyond the written word. But I will always be a written word person, not a video person at all.

SPEAKER_01: 15:12

So yeah, these days if you're running a race, you can find somebody who's recorded a bunch of uh video from the race. But I think that still doesn't, I think there's still value in the race report. I don't know. I had somebody tell me when I was out of Hilo, there they came up to me and they were like, I read your San Diego 100 race report, and I ran it, and it was really helpful. And I was like, wow, okay, that's the one person. It's like the one person that read that race report. Yeah, there we go.

SPEAKER_03: 15:39

Well, it gives you more of an idea because I know before Hilo, I watched like the well, you know, I watched that video and like you see the beautiful overarching, you see the train, but you don't realize I'm like, this looks amazing, but you don't actually get like the full nitty-gritty aside from like some people's experiences in there. So there is there is value to that whole like the logistics in written word, you know, as opposed to being like, wow, this looks really pretty. Are you from Colorado, Amelia? I'm from Oregon originally.

SPEAKER_02: 16:10

Yeah. Where in Oregon?

SPEAKER_03: 16:11

Portland area.

SPEAKER_02: 16:12

Oh, grad school in Portland. Yeah, really? Where? Yeah, Portland State. Okay.

SPEAKER_03: 16:17

Yeah. Yeah. My sister went to University Portland for undergrad. So um was just there this past weekend, and it was it was lovely. It was sunny and then it rained um for a day, and I was like, all right, I'm getting the Northwest experience.

SPEAKER_01: 16:28

And then you brought it back with you.

SPEAKER_03: 16:29

I brought it back with me. I'm one of those weirdos on days like today, the like the one day in Colorado it rains like this during the year. I'm like, oh, this is hilarious. Oh, you are love it. Oh no. I don't think I could deal with it all the time. Um, you know, because I grew up with that. But now that we get it, knowing then the the sun comes out tomorrow, it's it's quite lovely. So, did you start running on forest park trails then? I didn't. I actually did not run um really at all. I ran, I played team sports in in high school. Um, and I so I would I'd run a few miles to stay in shape for that. But no, I actually never ran Forest Park until probably like 2015. I had gone back. It was like when I actually started trail running. So um I didn't start running, didn't do any kind of like distance running until I graduated from law school. Oh. Um and where did you go to law school? Uh I was at University of Washington in Seattle. So I ran some around, but I never ran. I hiked the trails there, like the in the Cascades, but I didn't even every once in a while I would be hiking and I'd see somebody running by and I was like, ooh, maybe I could do that one day. But I just I didn't think, you know, to me, it was like, no, this is me. I'm just gonna go out for a hike. Uh but yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 17:49

So And what inspired you to start running? Because I also started running in grad school. And it was like in Portland, I needed to get outdoors. I needed to find a way to like get my endorphins going, have some outdoor time. What was your inspiration?

SPEAKER_03: 18:05

I So oddly enough, I got into ultra running through obstacle course racing. So I started when I live, I I moved to Chicago uh to join a law firm right after law school.

SPEAKER_00: 18:16

Big law firm?

SPEAKER_03: 18:17

Big law firm, very big law firm. And I saw all the people around me in my law firm would cope with uh going out to happy hour and getting drunk after work. This seems pretty standard. Yeah, yeah, very standard. And I mean, I I did it as well. And but I think after like a year of that, I just started to, it was just, I don't know. I just wanted something different. Um, and actually had a coworker who found this thing called a tough mutter and he's like, hey, we should run this as a as a and I was like, I've never run, and they were 13 miles long, and it was at this ski resort in Wisconsin, um, or ski hill in Wisconsin. And uh I was like, I have never run 13 miles before in my entire life. So I need to train to do this. And I remember I ran a to this day my first and only road half marathon. Um, and I ran it in preparation for the tough mutter. And then um, and then kind of found this like tough mutter and then like realized I really enjoyed it. So I signed up for more. I signed up for a 24-hour one, which I had zero business in running.

SPEAKER_01: 19:23

But I was like, But you you went from 13 miles to 24 hours? Yeah, you're a woman after my own heart.

SPEAKER_02: 19:31

Exponential group. Great.

SPEAKER_03: 19:34

Never, I mean, ridiculous. The fact that I was like, oh, I think I can do this. Like, I mean, I don't know if that's just youth. I think I was 27 at the time. And I was like, I'm invincible.

SPEAKER_01: 19:46

You're working like 80-hour weeks.

SPEAKER_03: 19:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 19:50

And and you're just gonna go get in all the way into it.

SPEAKER_03: 19:54

Just all all the way into it. Um, and that's kind of the funny thing is, is then from doing that 24-hour race, I then kind of backed down into some shorter distances and then uh, you know, like just got into that entire world and spent five years doing everything within obstacle racing, Spartan racing. Um, but didn't really, I think what I what I realized from all of that is like I really enjoyed the running between the obstacles and not so much the obstacles themselves. And I think I started to like stumble upon things around, I remember, and everybody, everybody has these experiences of like um, I think I read like one of Anton's reports of Leadville or something along the you know, one of those his he had speaking of blogs, like he had Anton has a great vlog. The blog of blogs, his writing is phenomenal.

SPEAKER_01: 20:49

He's yeah, and so I think he's running like 250 mile weeks, right? And he's winning Leadville, yeah, and everyone loves him.

SPEAKER_03: 20:57

Yeah. So I think that's where I was like, oh wait, you can run through the mountains and not do obstacles.

SPEAKER_02: 21:04

What what have I been doing all this time?

SPEAKER_03: 21:08

But I was living in Chicago, it wasn't a great place to like train for ultras. And so I think that's kind of where I came to running through obstacle racing, but like, you know, didn't really do pure running until uh 2015, so like a decade ago.

SPEAKER_01: 21:25

But did you now you were uh I think it's safe to say a pretty good obstacle course racer?

SPEAKER_04: 21:31

Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 21:33

You experienced quite a bit of success, multiple-time world champion. Yes. So that's amazing. Yeah. Did you experience similar success in ultra running?

SPEAKER_03: 21:42

Um I uh when I first I I initially, yes. So I um I ran, I had well, I ran the Georgia Death race in 2015 and had no idea what I was doing. I I ended up third, but it was like it was a pretty terrible experience.

SPEAKER_01: 21:58

But that's that's a very difficult race. Very rocky. You take every little hill on the DRT.

SPEAKER_03: 22:04

Right, right. And I this is my first ultra, and I was like, let me just do this one. Sounds great. Um, once again, having no idea what I was doing. Um, but I then um when I moved to California at the end of 2015 to work um for Apple, and uh I met a friend who was like, hey, there's like this race and these like golden tickets for this thing called Western States. And so I ran Sean O'Brien in 2016 and I got a golden ticket to Western States. Awesome. Which I never used and still have not have not run to this day.

SPEAKER_01: 22:42

So um do you regret that? Or was it an injury?

SPEAKER_03: 22:46

So I ended up with my first injury because I didn't know how to train. I think I jumped from doing an obstacle racing, I was maybe running 20 to 30 miles a week for like OCR. And then all of a sudden I was like, I'm gonna be an ultra runner, and I started running 80 miles a week. Oh, yeah. Like I didn't know anything around like how you increase mileage. And not only was did I jump from like 30 miles a week to 80 miles a week, I started doing vert because I moved from Chicago to California. Right.

SPEAKER_01: 23:18

Yeah, it was a recipe for you, you ran Rancho a lot.

SPEAKER_03: 23:22

I ran Rancho all the time.

SPEAKER_01: 23:23

Yeah. Yeah. I went, I went out there and I was running a rancho, and somebody I was with was like, that was Amelia Boone who just ran by.

SPEAKER_03: 23:30

I was like, okay.

SPEAKER_00: 23:32

Cool.

unknown: 23:33

Uh huh.

SPEAKER_03: 23:34

Yeah. I was like a I was a fixture on those trails for so many years. And still, when I go back to the area every few months, my favorite thing is going to Rancho. And just like and just like waving at all the people that I've seen that are still the same people that were running there 10 years ago when I first, you know, started running there.

SPEAKER_01: 23:51

That's the best part about visiting the mothership.

unknown: 23:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 23:54

That's what I say.

SPEAKER_01: 23:55

I agree. Like there's great trails. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 23:59

For our listeners, these two both work at Apple. Right.

unknown: 24:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 24:06

I mean, you know, tools of the trade.

SPEAKER_03: 24:08

Exactly. I mean, it's great. It's right there. And I tell I this is my I don't know my unpopular opinion, and I might get I might get booed out of Colorado for this, is that I actually think California has better trails than Colorado.

SPEAKER_01: 24:22

I mean, it's so hard to compare. I mean, the difference. The California carpet is wonderful for running. Right. But I I like hiking a little more. Yeah. I'm from California. So I like, I like the rocky, crazy trails we have here. Although California has those two. They're all just on the eastern Sierras.

SPEAKER_03: 24:41

Yeah, exactly. I mean, I think you can I well, the thing that I really enjoyed about um the Bay Area is that, especially kind of the South Bay, is that you can, and I you could kind of do this here, but there are parts like that 280 corridor. You can connect trails and parks for like 40 to 60 miles and like never go off a trail. And it just like you're weaving up and down skyline. And I mean, it's just an endless network that people don't realize is there. And like Marin in that area is kind of the same. Oh, they're so beautiful in there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 25:16

We we take uh every few years we get out to Marin in the spring. Because it's like in the springtime when it's just snowy here, Marin is just like an oasis for running. I love run. I I love running in California as well. I mean, who doesn't?

SPEAKER_03: 25:30

I do think I do think my other opinion, though, is that actually running in Colorado keeps you healthier because there is more hiking and because there is because like California you can run year-round. You can bomb, you basically, when you're running down hill, you're like running down a steep road, which is hard on your body.

SPEAKER_01: 25:48

Yeah, it's harder on your body than like a twisty technical track. Right.

SPEAKER_03: 25:52

Where you kind of like have to like stop or like step down. Or I don't know, I'm terrible at technical descent. So maybe I'm just maybe, maybe if I was good at them, I wouldn't have to stop. But yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 26:02

I love I love technical descents. The only thing I'm good at in running. So tell them to keep that.

SPEAKER_03: 26:09

Yeah. Hey, hey, take it, take it. You just gotta know what you're good at. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah.

unknown: 26:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 26:16

Um yeah. So speaking of technical descents, is that is that where you fell on hilo? On one of the descents? No.

SPEAKER_03: 26:26

I uh I made it down Antaro in one piece. Okay, that that is a tricky, that road is tricky. It's I mean, it's it's terrible. I did it in training because I know I hate technical descending. Um, and so I was like, you know, I just want to know what I'm in for. So I started going down this road. I was like, this is glorious. This isn't that bad. Oh, I thought that's so nice. I was like, what are people talking about? This is so great. And then as I get further down and further down, it's like baby heads. Yes. It wasn't as bad as I expected. Um, but no, I actually fell um in the most embarrassing spot, which is at the top of Law's Pass. Oh, like the top? Yeah, like just cresting, literally, just went by the photographers and was starting down the descent and like do do do do do do putting away my poles and just like caught a toe and just went down. And I was like, does somebody catch that? Oh no. It was like the dumbest place to go down. Um, and then yeah, well, I mean, there's but like the most annoying. I was like, but that's always what happens to me. I never fall on something super technical. I always fall on something that's like a few rocks here and there, but just not paying attention.

SPEAKER_01: 27:43

Yeah, I never roll my ankle when there's a ton of rocks. Right.

SPEAKER_03: 27:46

And I was dealing at that point, I think I don't know if I was bonking towards the top of Laws, but it's very easy to bonk there. I was definitely feeling a little bit underfueled and a little bit shaky. And so I think that just also played into a bunch of stuff. The the scenario.

SPEAKER_02: 28:04

But you finished, you finish. I came back. I did, I did.

SPEAKER_03: 28:07

How do you feel about your finish? I'm really proud of my finish. And I people are like, so you uh broke your kneecap and then ran 70 miles. And I was like, I I didn't know. I mean, anytime you go down and running and you're like, oh, my knee kind of hurts, and then it didn't feel great on descents, but like by Hancock, so like 50 miles, it was feeling fine again.

SPEAKER_01: 28:27

So I saw you come into Hancock, you look very happy. Right. You look good, you had blood down your knee, which is not a normal.

SPEAKER_03: 28:34

Right. Right.

SPEAKER_01: 28:35

It was like, okay. I mean half the people had like bloody beats. Exactly. It happens.

SPEAKER_03: 28:40

Yeah, the med guys looked at it and they're like, You're fine, go on. And I remember my physical therapist was there, um, actually like cruing for a husband, and I was like, I think I messed up my tendon.

SPEAKER_04: 28:49

And she was like, Oh, it looks fine.

SPEAKER_03: 28:53

But you know, every the thing in Ultra is like everything ends up hurting at some point. By the end of the race, I was like worried about my left Achilles, not my knee. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 29:02

So every other pain becomes more worse. Right. Yeah. I would I was doing this crazy race called Euchrebar Massacre with my buddy. I know of that one. You know Euchrebar. Well, of course it's like Barkley. Right. And I like to say, if the name doesn't want make you want to run it, I can't tell you anything else that would make you want to run that race. So we me and my buddy were out there and he slips because there's so much loose shit there. And and he just gets this huge gash on his calf.

SPEAKER_04: 29:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 29:29

And we're like 10 miles into this 50 mile thing. And you know, we're like, I don't know, we can't really get out. So we just keep going, just keep going. Eventually we see some other people, and one of them apparently is a doctor. And and I was like, I was like, hey, Nate, you should you should ask, you should ask him if you're how your gashes. And so from like 20 yards away across a bridge, Nate's like, hey, does this look bad? And this this guy's like, this guy turns around, he's like, you know, from 20 yards away, he's like, I don't think I can see any bone. You're good. And then, you know, four more hours of fighting, baby man's an eating, and we got time cut. That's how that went.

SPEAKER_04: 30:10

Hey.

SPEAKER_01: 30:12

He's fine. He just has a scarf.

SPEAKER_03: 30:14

Yeah, it happened to me. I remember I was um coming down Mount Morrison. It was like it in uh it was April 2020. So I just moved out here. I was coming down Mount Morrison. It was before they like made a bunch of stairs on it, which I hate that they now it's all like a lot of stairs, but it's still pretty rough. It's still pretty rough. But anyway, there were a bunch of people on the trail. And I kind of like, I like somebody like slipped and then I slipped. Anyway, I went down and I like gashed my knee over super wide, but it was like right at the beginning of COVID. And I was like, I don't want to go to the hospital to get stitches for my knee. Like they actually hospitals are bad. Hospitals are bad. Like we didn't know what was going on. And I text a photo to an ultra-running doctor friend, and I was like, Does this need stitches? And he's like, probably, but maybe just stere strip it. It definitely needed stitches. But like I didn't ever get them. And I'm like, it's it's a great scar. So good scar.

SPEAKER_01: 31:11

Yeah. So you didn't think anything of it when you went down on high? Not that it was like a break. No, right.

SPEAKER_03: 31:18

And even in even I didn't get, I finally went to the doctor like two weeks after the race. So, you know, I was like, I took a week off, and then like I was like, oh, I'm feeling pretty good. Try to get in a running. I was like, he's still not great. Um, but I thought it was just maybe like the fat pad. So I went to the doctor and he was like, he's like, we should get an X-ray. I was like, I'm not worried about bone. I was like, I'm not worried about bone.

SPEAKER_01: 31:40

This is not gonna be a bone thing. Right. Is that a little bit of like a protection mechanism? Like, don't even, don't even take it. You know what?

SPEAKER_03: 31:47

I actually just didn't even, it didn't never register that I could have broken my kneecap. Like, because you're like, I'll down my radar. Yeah, because you when you Google like broken vitella, it's like inability to bear weight.

SPEAKER_01: 32:00

You ran 70 miles on this thing. Right. Yeah. And you were walking afterward, you ran, you rode your bike afterwards.

SPEAKER_03: 32:04

Yeah, I rode my bike afterwards. Like it was fine. Um, or I thought it was that does not sound like a break.

SPEAKER_01: 32:10

Like, I wouldn't think that's a break.

SPEAKER_03: 32:11

No, no, nobody did. He didn't even they actually the way they found it is they um we were gonna do an ultrasound to look at my tendon and my fat pad and to orient, we didn't take an x-ray, which orient himself to like where the tendon was. He did the ultrasound over the bone. And apparently with an ultrasound on a superficial bone like that, you can see a divot in the bone, and he rolls over it. He was like, We're gonna need more imaging.

SPEAKER_04: 32:36

I was like, oh.

SPEAKER_03: 32:38

So yeah. Yeah. Um, but you know, it's like I was I was celebrating um after High Lonesome, getting through a hundred miler without breaking a bone because I Is that is that something to celebrate? Well, in my in 2023, the last Hundred Miler I did, Cascade Crest, I ended up with a femoral neck stress fracture. Neck? No, femoral femoral neck. Femoral neck.

SPEAKER_04: 33:04

Neck. That's a new one.

SPEAKER_03: 33:06

I didn't know yeah. So I um like was running into mile 97. I felt like it was like, and then I limped in. And so it was like I kind of was traumatized from 100 milers after because of like I was with my pacer at Hilo, and we were we had just hit the road, we come off the trail onto the gravel road, and she just does it feel real yet? And I go, no, I still have three miles to go. I could still break something.

SPEAKER_01: 33:39

No, you're like going up the swear hill.

SPEAKER_04: 33:43

Yeah, like something implodes.

SPEAKER_03: 33:46

Um, but which I had to run that hill. That was terrible.

SPEAKER_02: 33:49

You ran that hill, that swear hill.

SPEAKER_03: 33:51

So I was in seventh place of seventh place woman, and we're just jacking, you know, we're hiking up the hill, driving. All of a sudden I turn around. There's this woman behind me, literally sprinting like a freight train. No. And I was like, she just must be out for a run. She must be out for a run. Yeah, but who runs that road?

SPEAKER_01: 34:07

Nobody runs that road.

SPEAKER_03: 34:08

Oh, oh. She, she, I forget, I think her name was Grace. She sprinted, she's she holds, I think, the course record on that. If I looked at Strava, she on that hill. On that hill. She passed. And so I start running as fast as I can because I was like, I'm not gonna get past in the last like yeah, half mile before the finish. But no, I couldn't even, she went by me like I was standing still. Oh no. So I dropped from seventh to eighth in the last like half mile. Which was like a little bit of, but yeah. Well, so I had to run.

SPEAKER_04: 34:41

I was like, oh, as soon as she passed me, I was like, I'm not running this anymore.

SPEAKER_01: 34:45

Oh yeah, no, it's like fuck it. What's the difference? She's like, she heard that way.

SPEAKER_03: 34:51

She passed me.

SPEAKER_04: 34:52

I was like, have it.

SPEAKER_01: 34:53

Yeah, I'm done.

SPEAKER_02: 34:56

Can't bring myself to care in this moment.

SPEAKER_01: 34:59

When I when I ran two years ago, I was I was on the road section and um and I'm walking because I'm like, oh, I'm so gassed. And Luke Nelson runs by me with his two or three kids in tow. And he just the only thing he says to me is dig, dig, dig. I'm like, I'm like, oh if Luke Nelson tells me to fucking dick, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna have to fucking dig.

SPEAKER_04: 35:24

I know, I know. It's it's terrible. I was like, I just want to walk up this hill, leave me alone.

SPEAKER_01: 35:31

Oh, yeah. And Miranda also finished this year as well.

SPEAKER_02: 35:35

I did. My first hundred. Oh, wow. I was I stole your number, 11. Oh, there you go. Okay, now I'm piecing it together. Yes, yes. All right, how was your experience? I had a great time out there. I had a great experience.

SPEAKER_03: 35:50

That's a stout first 100.

SPEAKER_02: 35:52

Yeah. I mean, I could have asked for a better experience out there. My crew was amazing, my time was amazing, a great night. Yeah. Yeah. Can't we did luck out with weather?

SPEAKER_03: 36:05

It was it was great weather. I think we were. I know.

SPEAKER_02: 36:07

I just pieced my girlfriend at Run Rabbit Run. I was there. I was there. I was crewing. You were there. I was crewing.

SPEAKER_03: 36:13

Who were you crewing? I was crewing my friends uh Zoe, uh Zoe Roman TJ David. Oh, yeah, yeah. I saw Zoe out there. Yeah. And so I was up at Dry Lake when it was just hammering. Like me too. Hammering.

SPEAKER_02: 36:25

It was horrible. I'm standing out there waiting for my runner. And I'm just like, I don't want to go out in this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 36:33

Yeah. They uh I there was a lot of hypothermia.

SPEAKER_02: 36:37

There was. I've never seen someone come into an aid station so hyper hypothermic as uh one of the hares coming into dry lake.

SPEAKER_01: 36:44

Mm-hmm. Didn't he have to be carried?

SPEAKER_02: 36:47

He was like, yeah, toted in. Yeah. Yeah. Like he was on his feet, but like not, he was being propelled forward by someone else and he couldn't talk anymore. He was so hypothermic.

SPEAKER_03: 36:59

This is my argument for like, I know like they don't get above tree line at Run Rabbit. I ran it how that was my first hundred actually, but um I uh I was like, I feel like everybody needs to carry a jacket the entire time. That race too. They should. It gets cold that night every year. Yeah, it does. You know, it's the time of year. I remember being very cold during it, you know. But I would always, I know there were a lot of people that's I gotta save ounces anywhere. And I'm like, I was a little bit upset about having to carry so much gear at Hilo, but also like I get it, you know? And like, is really like a five-ounce jacket going to make or break your race? No, and it's everyone has to do it. For good reason.

SPEAKER_01: 37:42

Yeah, we I had to tell, I had to be the adult in the room and tell people that their jackets weren't didn't have uh didn't have taped seams. Some one guy got really upset because he was pacing and he's like, got this clearly not tape seam jacket. And and the the volunteer calls me over, she's like, Can you talk to him? And I'm like, dude, like you if I show this to Caleb, what do you think he's gonna say? Right. It's like it's he got really upset. I was like, go find a poncho. Somebody for a poncho, right? You're gonna be fine, you're gonna run the race. Next year, bring a tape seam jacket. Yeah, it's in the rules.

SPEAKER_03: 38:16

It's very easy. Reading is not hard. Like, and there is the poncho option too, right? Especially for pacers.

SPEAKER_01: 38:23

So you can just bring the poncho. Right. Uh I read Anthony's uh Anthony Lee's report from Run Route. Oh, yeah. And he said he left uh Summit Lake where his drop bag with all his warm clothes, and it said he was nice and sunny. And five minutes later, the weather rolls in, and the whole section from Summit Lake to Dry Lake, he is hypothermic, near hypothermic, right? So, like uh yeah, I think it just came in and hit them right at the wrong time.

SPEAKER_03: 38:49

Yeah, and then knowing where to drop your gear and stuff like that. That's why I'm just like, just carry a jacket with you at all times. Just do it, you know, a jacket and gloves, right? Yeah, it's I mean, it can I'm I I lose, I've bad rain outs, so like my hands get cold and wet, like I'm useless. Like I can't. So I always carry gloves or hand warmers or something like that because I've had to have friends pull down my pants for me so I could pee because like my hands won't function. I was treating for Barclay, actually. Yeah. And was out there uh with Maggie Gooderall, and I was like, my hands are like freezing and wet and clawed up. And I was like, Maggie.

SPEAKER_01: 39:29

You're at Frozen Head?

SPEAKER_03: 39:30

We're at Frozen Head.

SPEAKER_04: 39:31

I was like, Maggie, I have to pee. Can you pull my pants down for me?

unknown: 39:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 39:36

And that's how you become really good friends with somebody.

SPEAKER_03: 39:39

Did you have a cold Barkley year? Uh I did. I had a very rainy and foggy, and we had a terrible weather year. Oh. It was a terrible weather year. Were there any finishers you're no? Um, and only so I ran in 2018. Um, somebody did a fun run.

SPEAKER_01: 39:59

2018 would be the year after Gary's success. So I don't remember. Did Gary came back? John Kelly maybe had a function.

SPEAKER_03: 40:09

No, no, John didn't run that year. Um I'm trying to remember, did Gary come back that year? I think Gary came back that year and did fun run, or am I making that up?

SPEAKER_01: 40:16

Oh, yeah, maybe he came back one more year and did a fun run. He did a fun run. And then he was done after that.

SPEAKER_03: 40:21

Yeah, because Guillaume was on track. That was his first year. He was on track for a fun run, and then he got lost in the fog up on Bird and like curled up in his like emergency blanket, and then told us all when he came down the next morning after the time cutoff that a dog kept him company up there for the and we're like, are you sure you weren't hallucinating?

SPEAKER_04: 40:44

Like we to this day, he maintains there was a dog in the fog that like kept him company while he was like curled up in his emergency blanket.

SPEAKER_01: 40:54

This is why it's the greatest phrase. The stories out of this phrase are always the most absurd.

SPEAKER_04: 40:59

The people who get like picked up on like by cops walking along the out in Petros or something like that. Just trying to find their way out.

SPEAKER_01: 41:08

Yeah, when uh when Carl ran um that next year, I think like uh when he went out for lap four, yeah, Lass is like, no cops.

SPEAKER_04: 41:19

No cops, yeah, no cops. They don't want anything to do with us. No wandering into people's yards, don't get shot.

SPEAKER_01: 41:27

I also had a cold year, but no rain. Oh so it was actually quite nice.

SPEAKER_03: 41:31

You were two years ago?

SPEAKER_01: 41:33

23. 23, yeah. So yeah, I guess three instances ago. Three, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And it was cold, like it was like 10 degrees. Yeah, it was one of those years where the where the water froze. Yep. Yeah, yeah. I definitely saw the water. But you know, that's kind of an exaggeration because anyone that any of the bottle the bottles that were open froze. Yeah, but the closed ones are fine. So it's a little bit of an exaggeration to say the water froze. Like just to say something at Barclay is not as bad as it seems. Just one thing. One of the things that I think.

SPEAKER_03: 42:02

I will say the one thing to me that wasn't as bad as it seemed um were the Briars. So everybody talks about the Briars at Barclay, but they talk about, I think if you do uh the fall classic, the fall classic is awful.

SPEAKER_04: 42:15

Terrible.

SPEAKER_03: 42:15

Like terrible. And I have never done it probably for that reason. No. Um like I like it goes through my mind. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 42:22

Um, but uh But during but during race day for the Barclay, the the big Barclay, the briars are all dried. Yeah. And sometimes they're even mowed.

SPEAKER_03: 42:32

Yeah, they were mowed the year before the week before we showed up. And I think since we were all it was cold my year, so I was in long tights the entire time. Um, so and I also wore like like high gaiters, so I didn't have any scratches, I think, on me, you know.

SPEAKER_01: 42:49

Um I they were mowed for me, and the hardest thing was like not tripping over like the like you're trying to do that downhill pretty fast because it's one of the only sections you can really run.

SPEAKER_03: 43:00

Oh, I slid down and on my butt because it rained nonstop night. Oh, right.

SPEAKER_01: 43:04

And that hill becomes a fucking mudslide.

SPEAKER_03: 43:08

I have more pictures of me. Howie Stern was, you know, the fight, and like he goes, I he was, you know, taking photos. He goes, I don't have a single picture of you on your feet. Like I literally was like on my knees, or the pictures are me like on my butt. Like I was just not on my feet during that race.

SPEAKER_01: 43:28

Well, I mean, I ran BFC in a rain year as well. Yeah. And so I I understand that you cannot travel up these slopes or down these slopes on your feet when it's raining.

SPEAKER_00: 43:39

Uh-uh.

SPEAKER_01: 43:40

They just they just become month slides.

unknown: 43:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 43:43

One of Miranda's favorite pictures of me is from like climb clawing my way up that hill.

SPEAKER_02: 43:48

My screensaver for my phone. It's it's a great picture.

SPEAKER_03: 43:54

And then I always tell people too, because they see pictures of Barkley and they're always from Rat Jaw, you know, because that's like the one area where and I tell them, I'm like, that is the easiest hill on the course. It is like it is long, it is steep, but that is by far the easiest.

SPEAKER_01: 44:12

You can turn your brain off, which you can't do the rest of the time.

SPEAKER_03: 44:14

Right. But I was like trying, I was like, it was like Hiram's vertical smile or something. I was going up.

SPEAKER_01: 44:19

Oh, I don't think I ran that one.

SPEAKER_03: 44:20

I don't know that one. I was going up it with Jamil, and I turned to him and I was like, How have you done this so many times? At one point I grabbed a tree and held on, like a small tree, and like held on to the tree to like get like a respite from like going up because it was just like otherwise, otherwise you're just like you're like my poles, even I was just like held onto a tree just to like hang on for a second and like give myself a break.

SPEAKER_01: 44:46

So yeah, and then one of the things I didn't know to expect um or didn't really understand before I ran it was how many cliffs there are.

SPEAKER_04: 44:58

How many places you could fall to your death? Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01: 45:02

Like, and then and then like you have to find the way down. Yeah. And that's not always obvious. Right. And so like I wasted 20 minutes coming down apocalypse, yeah. Just like trying to find the fucking like the descent line off this 40 foot cliff. There's like one little and and I was talking to Tomo after the race, and he's like, Yeah, you just go left. And I was like, Well, I nobody fucking told me that. I had no idea. I spent 20 minutes finding that thing, right? But like that's that's why veterans are have a way better shot at that race. Is because you just know, oh, at this, at this one cliff, I go left, and this other cliff, I go right, and this other cliff I go straight. And like there's just so many little things to the navigation that aren't on the maps, aren't in the instructions. It's just experience. Exactly. And you can only get that experience when you run it.

SPEAKER_03: 45:53

Exactly. Yeah. And I mean, and that's like that's why you have to have a certain number of veterans in the race. And I know there's a lot of like criticism that people criticize Laz for like, you know, the the entry process and things. I'm like, you can't have a bunch of virgins running around in the woods. Like it's not gonna work. You have to have people that know where they're going to like then help teach the other people, you know, at least like follow, you know. So it's otherwise just it would it would never be a thing. You can be the best person at Land Nav, like following a compass bearing, and it's just it's still, it's still like insane. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 46:34

So you were one of the only people to be able to like live comment on the on the Barkley. There was one year where you you were like tag teaming with Keith.

SPEAKER_03: 46:44

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01: 46:45

Yeah. How was that experience? Because this is like a very unique experience.

SPEAKER_03: 46:48

Well, well, by tag teaming, I Keith allowed me to repost and for him, which I could then add color commentator. I tell Keith that um we should we share the the eternal bond of all both being attorneys, actually. And uh so uh I joke that I I'm I'm gunning to take over Keith's job when he no longer wants it.

SPEAKER_01: 47:12

Um I know I'm like Do you think you you might be better with the three phones?

SPEAKER_03: 47:16

Oh, for sure, for sure. You know, and he was like, he's all like, can you help me out with a setup here technologically? I was like, I I've got nothing for you. Because he does, he actually um he keeps an old, I think I wonder if he still does. It's an old Blackberry. Well, no, so I think it's an old like iPhone 8 he used for a long time that for some reason would get service, but the newer ones wouldn't. And so he would keep like an old, old iPhone that would somehow get out messages that others wouldn't.

SPEAKER_01: 47:46

So yeah, I think the year I saw him, he he was juggling like three or four phones constantly. Trying to find one with service at the time.

SPEAKER_03: 47:54

Yeah, yeah. I mean, everybody's like, get a Starlink out there. And I was like, Have you seen Frozen Head? Like Starlink isn't gonna work.

SPEAKER_04: 48:01

Like there's like too heavily wooded.

SPEAKER_01: 48:04

It's very wooded, it's like enclosed in like on three sides. Yeah. It's uh yeah, it's pretty hard to get a signal in there.

SPEAKER_03: 48:11

Yeah, no, but I mean, that's like part that's what that's part of the mystique. Like I always said, if you could live stream Barclay, like it wouldn't be what it is.

SPEAKER_01: 48:20

Part of it is Keith.

SPEAKER_03: 48:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 48:21

Keith is an integral part to the experience that the rest of us could play.

SPEAKER_02: 48:25

Playing the mystery of it. Yeah. Yeah. You don't know what people are doing out there. Did you go out there to crew? Yeah. Okay. So you've you've seen it from like a crew perspective. Yeah. I was hanging out with Keith at the fire. He called me the coffee goddess because I would make him coffee every morning.

SPEAKER_03: 48:41

The fire is a great place. I've recruited it as well as like run it. And it's it is a fun place.

SPEAKER_01: 48:47

The fire is good to hang out with.

SPEAKER_03: 48:49

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 48:50

Enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_02: 48:52

Amelia, I I would love to ask you about your decision to be open about your eating disorder with the run community. Yeah. What was that decision process like? I mean, it seems like it must have been challenging.

SPEAKER_03: 49:07

Yeah, you know, I think for me, it it was a it was kind of a long process of kind of figuring out how much of my life I want to share and knowing that once you put something out there, it's pretty hard to unring that bell as well. Um, and that will that fundamentally change how people see me, how people relate to me. But I know for me, I had spent so many years, especially when I was obstacle racing. And in obstacle racing, I timed it in this weird thing where the sport was like rising really fast and it was getting a lot of attention. And so I was getting a lot of media and a lot of press, and I would tell all these stories or tell about my history. And but there was like this huge chunk of my life that I never spoke about. And it felt, I felt very incongruent about how I felt myself on the inside and the things that I struggled with internally, and like what the media would portray me as, especially around people calling me the queen of pain or like, oh, she's such an obstacle-racing badass. And I'm like, I have literally been struggling with mental health issues since I was seven years old. And like, this is not the way that the world externally is seeing me is not my own experience. And I think I had so much shame in my life from a very early age about feeling broken, about feeling like I had all the problems, that there was something wrong with me. And, you know, it like shame really, and trite saying by now, but really thrives in silence and like staying hidden. And so when I decided to speak about it, I was like, look, like I am struck, just like everybody else out there has something going on, you know, like so do I. And like I'm tired of hiding this. I'm tired of being ashamed about it. And like it's so ubiquitous, unfortunately, in the endurance athlete world. And I think a part of me honestly was like, I just don't want to feel so alone in it, you know. Um, so it was never really to be like, I want other people to be inspired by my story or anything. It was just like I wanted how I, what I was going through internally to also then like reflect as well how I experienced the external world, you know, and how people experienced me. Yeah. Um, so that that was really what it was about, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 51:38

And I I still don't hear that many voices in Ultra Running talking, talking about it. Has that been your experience, or have more people come forward to talk to you about their experiences with eating disorders?

SPEAKER_03: 51:51

Yeah, I mean, I think it's I think because it is such like a small once I spoke about it, then you know, when you open yourself up, then a lot of people will come to you with their own stories. So all of a sudden I was gonna was like, oh, actually, no, there's a lot of us that deal with this, but unfortunately. Um but I do think there has been more of a movement of people being like, hey, yeah, like me too, and this is what I'm doing about it. And you even see, I, you know, it's I love when Tim Tollifson spoke up about his his struggles as well as a male in ultrarunning, which you don't hear you do not hear a lot of he was on Rich Roll, um, you know, talking about it. And so I think more and more like people are recognizing it. And I think especially in a sport, the wonderful thing about ultrarunning um is that I is that I think for a lot of for me particular, and I've spoken to other people who feel this way as well, is that because you're asking so much of your body, it actually really helps you to be like, I am fueling my body to be able to do these really, really hard things. Absolutely. Like, and it doesn't then matter what my body looks like on the outside, you know. Like, I need to make sure because so much of like the pressure of aesthetics, you're like, I don't care. Like, I just want to be able, I want to accomplish. I need to take my 400 calories an hour while I'm moving to be able to do these things. And to do these things, I'm gonna have to feed my body right, you know. Um, and so I think for me, it's always, you know, ultralunning has provided kind of like uh a really good mindset in like how do I take care of my body to be able to do this?

SPEAKER_02: 53:37

I was gonna ask that next. I've from my with my own struggles, I found that to be true. That ultra running has been a path towards healing my relationship to my body.

SPEAKER_03: 53:49

Yeah. And I I believe that. And I believe it's I'm sure that there are people out there who would take issue with that because they'd be like, are you just trading one addiction for another? Are you just trading your common refrain?

SPEAKER_01: 54:03

Exactly. It is like an argument. What would what would you say to that?

SPEAKER_03: 54:07

I would say perhaps I was like, I mean, let's be in an ideal world, could I would I be recovered or recovering from an eating disorder and not, you know, have ultra running as a as like, you know, uh an outlet, you know, as a in an idea in a more enlightened version. Yeah. Probably, sure. But I don't think I think we all do this in many ways. And I know Rich Roll has spoken about this kind of at length because people asked him when he, you know, was he's in recovery for, you know, alcoholism and addiction. And they're like, well, aren't you just trading that for exercise? He's like, Yes. And like sometimes like I see those trade-offs, and like this is the one that you know fits with my values. And like, it's not perfect, you know. Um, but it's better than what I was doing.

SPEAKER_02: 55:03

We had Katra Corbett on the pod, and she was like, meth was killing me. Right. And ultra running me is giving me life. Yeah. She's like, there's a big difference there.

SPEAKER_03: 55:13

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I mean, I think we're all existing in this like messy middle somewhere, you know? And I and so, you know, like do I I believe personally for me, ultra running like actually helps me have a healthier relationship with my body and with food. But there are others who would maybe think otherwise and you know, to each their own. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 55:39

I mean, at some level, and this is this sounds crazy to say, but like maybe addicts are the smart ones because life in general is is a lot of suffering. Yeah. And addicts have found something that makes them happier. And they do it a lot. And they decided, I'm just gonna do this as much as I can. You know, and then of course that can take some uh take you to some negative places, and that's why, you know, you have to find healthier outlets. But if ultra running makes you happier, then do it more as long as your body holds up. And then that and then you're then you're into the challenges that you face, right? A lot where this thing that you love, yeah, your body has not held up through it.

SPEAKER_03: 56:24

Right. And I think it's hard for me, so much of too is that, you know, um I went back into recovery, went back into treatment in 2019 because of my cycle of injuries. That was like, I'm clearly not eating enough to be able to sustain what I'm doing. And it's keeping me from what I love to do, you know. And so let's try and break this. Let's try and break this cycle so I can set myself up to then be able to compete and do what I love to do. And I there's this part of me that's like, I've still gotten injured since then, and I have, you know. Um, but I've also been able to run four 100 milers and two big backyards and you know, things along those lines. And in that I I wouldn't have been able to do. But, and it's not like a, it's not a switch. It's not all of a sudden like I'm in recovery, therefore my body is going to forget what I did to it for 20 years and then be like, you're fine, go ahead. I'm always gonna be predisposed to bone injuries, you know? Um and unfortunately, like that's a that's like a trade-off that I have to weigh. At this age, not I like if I have to be out for a bone injury, it's fine. If I break my hip when I'm 70, not great, you know. So it's like as I get older, I'm probably maybe gonna have to rethink some of these things, but I'm just like pushing that off in the decision. So you don't have to make a decision. Yeah, yeah. So now I'm like, no, no, no, no. That's like a that's like a future amelia problem. Future amilia problems. For now, I'm just gonna set myself up to be able to like have the strongest bones I can, train within my limits, and see what I can do, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 58:05

So I have uh, speaking of addicts, I have an addict friend who speaks about her addiction, the way that you speak about your recovery from an eating disorder. And part of being a prolific writer is you have some of these things that live. And I would love to hear if your your um thoughts have evolved. So this friend, she says that she can always feel the addict inside of her. She always feels that young girl addict living inside of her, and she always needs to be vigilant of that addict. And I've read some of that in your writing that this is something you are always um living with and working with. And I wonder if your thoughts have changed around that or if you still feel that way.

SPEAKER_03: 58:57

No, I absolutely I I do never I will never believe that I am recovered, like with an ED at the end. Like I will always be in recovery because I unfortunately, you know, for dealing with this for so long, my brain is just going to want to do things. And like I can look at a food and be a human cal like calorie calculator if I want to. But and like that impulse is still there. The question is, do I act on that? Do I listen to that or do I ignore it? So I have to make that decision every single day. And the more that you make the decision to ignore the eating disorder voices, to ignore that, like the quieter they become. Like I always I think I had a therapist who once called it like you have a little monkey on your shoulder. And like, you know, the the more that you pay attention to it, like the tighter it's gonna grip and like hang on. But you have to like, the more you don't listen, it's like it will relax, it will let go. Um, and so I think that that's something that I have to like every single day. You make that choice.

SPEAKER_02: 1:00:01

And when you're running a hundred, is that monkey silent?

SPEAKER_03: 1:00:06

Honestly, yes. Um, I mean, I don't think originally at first, but it's taken me a little bit to get to the point where like fuel, like I'm very comfortable with fueling and like not even thinking about like now I'm like, oh God, I gotta fuel so I don't bonk. You know, I gotta fuel so I don't hit that terrible wall. Um, you know, so I can finish this race. And uh so it's it is something that, yeah, when I'm running, like I don't, I don't know if it's just I don't have time or if I'm thinking about other things, but it's very like kind of like formulaic, this is what you're gonna do, and you can't deviate it from it because finishing this race is way more important than the mental gymnastics going on in your brain. So and I've seen what happens when you don't fuel during a race.

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:55

It's not good.

SPEAKER_03: 1:00:56

It's not good. We've all been in a place where like puking or something, and like you can't get and you just it's like a death march, you know? Yeah, yeah.

unknown: 1:01:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:05

Or if you're fueling the spring energy.

SPEAKER_02: 1:01:07

Oh, yeah, I did that for many years ago. Oh no, I had a bad race as well.

SPEAKER_03: 1:01:13

Oh, I did awesome sauce for literally like four years, like all of Cascade Crest, and I was like, no wonder I broke my finger. I will, I will, I know they're still in existence and I will never understand how I actually saw a rapper on the trails a few months ago.

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:32

Miranda still partakes.

SPEAKER_02: 1:01:33

Oh what? Now and then I will I vomited one back up in my mouth at high low and probably can't do them ever again.

SPEAKER_03: 1:01:41

You can do them with it, don't they have MCT oil in them now? Do they? Oh, I thought they do now. I thought that's how they reformulated it to put in more calories. Oh, I don't pay attention to any of that though. If it works for you, I'm not judging. It didn't. It didn't. I just know that I would have gastrointestinal issues, probably if I was like, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:04

It was so funny how spring was, I mean, they were the most popular brand of endurance fuel. And then like even before everyone found out that the numbers were lying, like the simpler carbs of like Morton, Precision, SIS, or like they they came out of nowhere, and then now they're just that's all anybody ever does.

SPEAKER_03: 1:02:27

I know. Yeah, it's very, I mean, I think fueling goes in like these weird waves too. And then now you have it's kind of groupthink. It's groupthink, yeah. Because then you have people with the ketones and like within the thing. And every like, you know, not for me. I'm all like, hey, what what I have found is I actually feel way better on solid food during I felt like death at high low until I started eating real food. And everybody told me, up that high, your stomach isn't gonna be able to handle it, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But no, no, no. When I was eating gels at 12,000 feet felt like death. Switched to quesadillas and pizza, amazing. So it's like everybody just has to like figure it out for themselves. I think it's I was the opposite. Yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:11

I couldn't do solas at high low, and I was so disappointed. It was my first time in life where that was a problem. Oh, I know.

SPEAKER_03: 1:03:18

Yeah, I was like, yeah, I was like shoving pizza in my mouth at Louis Wonder Hunt. I was like jealous. It's like everybody talked about this, and here I am doing it.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:30

Okay, I'm gonna make a hard transition because we're coming up on time, and I have to ask you this question. So um, you wrote an article for Outside Magazine about um this decision being made for you not to have children. Um, and that we we're in that same boat. We've had we've been open about our challenges as well on this podcast. And you wrote something at the end of that article that really resonated with me that there would be grief either way. And I would love to just know where you're at with that grief.

SPEAKER_03: 1:04:05

Yeah, no, it's a good question. I appreciate you sharing that because I think in being open about this aspect of my life, I've realized there are so many people in a similar scenario. Absolutely. I was always told like you are either child freedom proud or you are childless and like, you know, devastated about it. There is no like middle in this kind of like a well, maybe I wanted it to happen, maybe I didn't, but like at this point it's kind of happened and I don't know how I feel about it.

SPEAKER_02: 1:04:37

Which I really related to that whole indecisiveness. I never wanted to have children until I met my partner, which then I was 40 when we got married.

SPEAKER_03: 1:04:47

And so Yeah, and then you reach a point and you're like Yeah, oh yeah. Um, and I think for me, really it it it's a it's a constant thing. I mean, I don't think kind of like with the eating disorder, it kind of evolves. And there will be some days where I'll be with a friend and their kids, and then I'll have like pings of sadness of like, what could have been, or you know, that alternate life. And then there are other times where I'm like, man, I just like my life right now is phenomenal and I love it. And I think that's just going to continue to evolve as as I get older and to figure out two ways that okay, like what in my life, what need would having children like what would that have filled? And are there other ways where I can kind of fulfill those kind of like needs um in a mechanism that's not like you know, my own children, you know, or um whether, or whether that's just like being involved in the community or volunteering or or figuring that out. And so I think that um it is really kind of something that's it's not static for me. Um, and uh and I don't think we should ever kind of push aside that like grief or feel shame about having grief about it because I'm you know, it's I I I have well, this is an entire another podcast, but I have a lot of feelings about how we deal with grief in our like American society. Well, that would be a good podcast. Yeah, not just about children, grief about injury, grief about losing sport, grief about like everything and the fact that we just want to shove it aside and pretend that it doesn't exist. Not true. That's not how you deal with it, you know.

SPEAKER_01: 1:06:36

So it is it is a great way to not deal with it and then have it come up in the worst situations that it can.

SPEAKER_03: 1:06:44

Exactly. Yeah. You know, and then 20 years later being like, Oh, I never dealt with that, you know, instead of dealing with it and moving through it at that time, you know.

SPEAKER_01: 1:06:55

Something it took me many years to learn. Yeah.

unknown: 1:06:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:06:58

How to deal with grief.

SPEAKER_03: 1:07:00

Yeah, it's messy.

SPEAKER_01: 1:07:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:07:02

Oh my gosh, Amelia, I could talk to you for much longer. But uh, we are coming to the end of our time together, and we like to ask our guests to share a piece of advice with our audience to end out the pod. It doesn't have to be about running, it could be about life itself. It's funny.

SPEAKER_01: 1:07:22

Um, I knew you were gonna ask me this, and I was like, I prepared the guest. Look at me. You did. I prepared the guest.

SPEAKER_03: 1:07:29

I mean I had some, but the funny thing is, is like I was like, oh yeah, it's that. And then now I'm like, oh God, I forgot what was it what I was gonna say. You might have to edit this one down a little bit while I him and ha. Uh we probably won't.

SPEAKER_01: 1:07:41

Yeah, no, generally speaking, we don't.

SPEAKER_03: 1:07:44

You're like, you're like, no, actually, um if you're going to This is good, right?

SPEAKER_01: 1:07:50

This is great. Pete the the listeners love listening to us think about talking. Like we're gonna, like we're gonna, but by the way, listeners, I really appreciate you listening through this whole episode. I'm sure you guys loved listening to our conversation with Amelia Boone. So I just want to say thank you for listening.

SPEAKER_03: 1:08:09

Um, oh God, what was it? So it was a piece of advice. It was like, I mean, honestly, and this is really trite, but like I for the me with the thing that I think about is like I spent so many years um competing at a high level and making myself miserable, being like, oh, but I have to do this and I have to like, you know, like oh, if I don't do this as well in this race as I'd like to, like I'm it's I'm gonna be disappointed, everybody's gonna be disappointed, like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And um it doesn't matter like at what level you compete, but I'm sure most people have expectations of themselves. And the thing that I like to remind myself is nobody gives a shit how you do, like in running, like literally nobody cares except yourself. Uh, you know, like I don't remember anybody's race results. Like, I just like I'm not keeping the track of your ultra sign up. And it helps sometimes like take pressure off yourself. And like, so, but anyway, I'm getting to the broader thing of like stay present in this because it will end, you know, like you don't know when your last ultra is gonna be. You don't know, like, like you don't know when the last time you'll be able to finish 100 mile or is like I kind of race like every race could be my last, and would I be okay with that? You know, just because you you don't know what the future holds, you don't know what your body's gonna cooperate with. And I think that that's also true for like so many things in life, too. Is like at some point this is all gonna go away. So, like, stop taking it so fucking seriously. Like, just enjoy what you have.

SPEAKER_02: 1:09:50

I am obsessed with that vi advice, and it's very timely for me and my girlfriends. We all ran our biggest events this year, and some folks are very unhappy with their performance, and this is exactly what we were talking about. Like, who I for already forgot what your time was.

SPEAKER_03: 1:10:08

You know, like it's good to have those goals. Like, if you wanted to run a three-hour marathon and you miss it by like two minutes, that doesn't like take away everything that you did for that, you know.

SPEAKER_01: 1:10:18

So it's still great, right? Like on the on this last hundred I just did, we were coming down this road at the end, it was like eight miles, all descent. And I was like, Oh, I should be running, I should be running. And then I'm like, Miranda, I'm just gonna turn on some music. And we were just singing on the road for two hours until we finished the race. Yeah. And it was fun, and it was a great time to spend with my wife, and I enjoyed it, and I still finished the race within the cutoff. So who cares?

SPEAKER_03: 1:10:46

Right. And it's like those are the things that you remember. Like, I don't, you're not gonna remember whether you finished like 14th or 15th or like 29th or like, but you will remember the experiences that you had out there, which is why, like, when I now I'm just blathering on, but like when I run 100s, my I love getting to know people. Like, I love I ran like 50 miles of Hilo with it, because we just kept running the same pace with this wonderful guy named Owen. And we just kind of like were passing each other, and like he would pass me, and then I would catch up, I would pass him, and like, but like having those moments, like taking time to actually get to know, like that's what you remember. Yeah, and that's why ultrarunning is so cool, is because like there's all of that, it's like life experiences wrapped up into like one terribly hard race.

SPEAKER_01: 1:11:35

Like, how many how if you're not an ultra runner, like how many old friends do you have where you're like, Oh, I I only spent one day with them, but it was 12 hours. Yeah, like when we were next to each other.

SPEAKER_03: 1:11:47

We know our life story. We did some very intimate things together as like somebody who's peeing on the side of the trail, and like, you know, like somebody else was puking over there.

SPEAKER_01: 1:12:01

Yeah. It's great.

SPEAKER_02: 1:12:02

Well, this has been great, Amelia. Thank you for being on the pod. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01: 1:12:06

This was excellent, and we'll see you listeners next time.