SPEAKER_00: 0:11

Hello and welcome to Running with Problems. My name is John Eisen.

SPEAKER_03: 0:15

And I'm Miranda Williamson.

SPEAKER_00: 0:17

Running with Problems is a podcast about runners and their lives and the problems they inevitably face. Today on the podcast, we have me, John Eisen, interviewing Troy Meadows for the Mid-Packer podcast. We are cross-posting. Woo! So this uh podcast, we recorded it for the Mid-Packer Podcast. It's on their feed. Uh, but we're also cross-posting it over here so that you guys can hear this interesting conversation. Troy and I talk about the Dark Divide 100. Um, and uh we'll talk about him in a second. But before we get to that, Miranda, how are you doing?

SPEAKER_03: 0:51

It's my birthday today.

SPEAKER_00: 0:53

Happy birthday. No, I'm not doing that. No, no, don't do that.

SPEAKER_03: 0:56

I'm not doing that. Um, yeah, it's my birthday, and I thought it was really cool that all I wanted to do for my birthday was live my normal life. I wanted to do our normal Thursday run, go to our normal Thursday restaurant to eat. And this weekend, I wanted to run with my girls like I always do, and uh go out to a nice dinner and pretty much at the place that we always go to nice dinners at. Exactly. I was like, this is a sign of an amazing life. If to celebrate, I just want to do my normal life.

SPEAKER_00: 1:32

Yeah, I mean, I I think that's the way you gotta construct your life so that living it is the best realization of yourself.

SPEAKER_03: 1:40

Yeah, and it really is. I I can't love my life more.

SPEAKER_00: 1:46

That's great. I how are you? Oh, I'm doing okay. I'm doing okay. I'm trying to get back into running. Uh, been a bit out of it for since Dark Divide, and I played a chess tournament. You did. And on day one, I played very well. So this was it's um it's three games on Saturday, two games on Sunday. The each game is what we call 90 minutes plus 30 seconds. What that means is you get 90 minutes for the whole game, but every move you play, you get another 30 seconds added. So if you play 40 a 40 move game, then that is a 110 minutes total. And your opponent also gets the same amount of time. So they start with 90 minutes and they add 30 seconds per move. And that means that a game can last anywhere from, I think my shortest game was 45 minutes, and my longest game was um I or I think the longest game at the tournament was something around four hours, four and a half, four and a half hours. So yeah, they can be pretty tiring because you have to think really hard.

SPEAKER_03: 2:59

You have to be very here.

SPEAKER_00: 3:02

I mean, it it is somewhat, I mean, it's not dissimilar, right, you know, from that idea. I think there's some differences. First of all, you have an opponent right in front of you, you have a problem always to solve. Second of all, you have to like keep your energy up very consistently, but without the ability to like, you can't really rest too much, you know. I can walk around while it's m my opponent's move, but at the end of the day, I'm always thinking about the chess. And um the second day of the tournament on Sunday, I um what's the technical term for this? I think uh shit the bed. Shit the bed, shit the bed is the tournament. I'm term I did not play well. Uh Summit's tail is hitting the table, and that is making noise on the podcast.

SPEAKER_03: 3:50

Uh sorry about that. Uh, I promise he's a silent dog. It's just as soon as we start potting, he is involved.

SPEAKER_00: 3:57

Yes, very involved. The uh yeah, I did not play well the second day. My I blundered. I uh my opening was pretty good. I had advantage out of the opening and I immediately made a positional mistake. A positional mistake is a mistake that creates an opportunity for your opponent in the long term. So chess moves, especially pawn moves, are moves that you can't take back. So once you make them, they have create they have created an irrevocable situation on the board. Now, a move with the bishop or the queen or whatever, those moves can be taken back, but a pawn move can never move backwards. And this creates very lasting consequences for certain pawn moves. And I I made a pawn move in this game on like move 10 or something, and it basically switched advantage from me to my opponent. And then throughout the rest of the day, my blunders, my mistakes kept getting worse and worse and worse until I finally I lost very badly in the last game, and I have felt quite bad about it.

SPEAKER_03: 5:03

How have you been managing those feelings?

SPEAKER_00: 5:06

Oh, you know, not well. I mean, I do my best, I think. It's I think it's just difficult to play a to to put yourself out there and to play a one-on-one sport-ish thing. Maybe it's not a physical sport, but it's a it's a game, a one-on-one game. And you know, I care about how I play. I care about my feelings on my play.

SPEAKER_03: 5:37

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 5:37

And I'm playing in a certain section of people who are similar level to me. You know, I'm not playing master players, uh, grandmasters or international masters. I'm playing other intermediate players rated around my level. And I I wanted to do well, and I ended up scoring two and a half out of five, so that's like 50%. But uh, you know, it left a bad taste in my mouth losing the last two games. And, you know, losing the fourth game, you know, you make a positional blunder. That's something as an intermediate level player I will do from time to time. Um something I can learn from. But the fifth game, it was just like all mistakes that were fixable.

unknown: 6:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 6:20

Or not fixable, but just like very foreseeable. Right. Yeah. So, you know, I was playing hope chess. It's where I hope my opponent makes the move that would blunder the game. Not making the best move overall for the so yeah, that that's been a good distraction from running that has made me want to find running again.

SPEAKER_03: 6:43

What else have we got going on in our world? We've been saunaing a lot.

SPEAKER_00: 6:48

Oh, yes, we got the sauna installed. I don't know if we've talked about it a little bit.

SPEAKER_03: 6:51

I don't think we have.

SPEAKER_00: 6:52

We've been talking about installing a sauna in our lives for years.

SPEAKER_03: 6:57

It has been at least a year.

SPEAKER_00: 6:59

And we finally got it all ordered, installed, set up. I've been working and we've been saunaing every day, and it's amazing.

SPEAKER_03: 7:08

It has been amazing. I love it.

SPEAKER_00: 7:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 7:11

So for our uh future dog sitters, um, you have a sauna to use. Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: 7:16

It's currently heating.

SPEAKER_03: 7:18

Um, the other thing that's been really amazing is uh we've been meeting people who listen to the pod that we don't even know. I had a person come to our happy hour run, our boulder trail runner's happy hour run, and be like, oh yeah, I listened to your pod. He said, he said, I skipped through your intro. I hope you don't mind because I don't know you. And he's like, I think I don't mind.

SPEAKER_00: 7:41

It's not gonna hear this, but we appreciate you. And Mark and Tasha are new listeners. Right. Yeah, welcome to the podcast family, the the problematics, as I like to call you all.

SPEAKER_03: 7:53

Ruth listened to our Run Cations episode, and she's actually in Shamini right now and was like, that was really helpful.

SPEAKER_00: 8:00

So welcome to the podcast.

SPEAKER_03: 8:01

Welcome to the listeners.

SPEAKER_00: 8:03

And I forgot to mention, but long time super fan Eric actually finished both of the 50Ks that we spoke about on the past episode uh in the intro. And I just want to give a big call out to Eric. That was a great running, and I'm super proud of you.

SPEAKER_03: 8:20

Good job, Eric. He hopes to run a hundred next year.

SPEAKER_00: 8:24

So he's got a high lonesome 100 qualifier. And if you get if anybody on the podcast is interested, listening to the podcast is interested in running High Lonesome, you get an extra bonus to your lottery entry uh when you enter High Lonesome if you're a running with problems listener.

SPEAKER_03: 8:41

That is not true at all. We we definitely love you, but uh that is a lie.

SPEAKER_00: 8:53

I'll talk to Caleb about it. We'll see if we can work in an extra extra half a point. Um let's talk about Troy before we get ourselves in trouble. Troy Meadows, we met Troy at the Dark Divide 100. He is, you know, he has a podcast with the in that's in the free trail podcast network. And so he's big in the free trail community, which is a it's a paid running community that Dylan Bowman started. I'm a member just because I like supporting Dylan and his efforts. And uh Kevin, one of our friends who was also running Dark Divide, is part of the Free Trail Pro community. And so he knew he and uh Troy were kind of friends from online.

SPEAKER_03: 9:35

And so they met Kevin and Troy.

SPEAKER_00: 9:36

Kevin and Troy, yeah. Right. And so so we met at we were hanging out before Dark Divide and chatting a bunch. And then on the race, it just ended up that Troy and I spent like 10 hours hiking together because that the first 10 hours of the race, we were just kind of right there with each other. That's excellent. And I don't want to give away too much of what happens in the race, but Troy Troy does end up uh, you know, having some trouble.

SPEAKER_03: 10:04

This is running with problems. We always have trouble, you know. You have problems. That's one thing you can expect on this pod.

SPEAKER_00: 10:10

It is so consistent that nothing ever comes without problems. So we talk about all that, and this is a really fun little interview I did with Troy. So it's just me and Troy. There's no Miranda. So if you're looking for Miranda, skip to the next episode. We'll be back in a couple weeks.

SPEAKER_03: 10:28

But it's really fun to have our first um sharing like this.

SPEAKER_00: 10:32

Our first cross post.

SPEAKER_03: 10:34

Cross post. And you made it happen. And I'm really, really excited about this.

SPEAKER_00: 10:41

Look at that. We're accomplishing our goals.

SPEAKER_03: 10:43

So if you overcome these problems, if you like the Mid-Packer podcast, go listen. Go enjoy some more of this type of content.

SPEAKER_00: 10:52

Yeah, absolutely. We'll have all the links in the show notes. Mid-packer podcast releases, I think, weekly. They they do a lot of good episodes, they're part of the free trail network there. Um, Troy gets in a lot of different people from a lot of different walks of life who are all, guess what, mid-packers, people like you and me who are out there just trying to enjoy the sport for the innate beauty of it.

SPEAKER_03: 11:17

So we hope you enjoy this taste. And if you want more, go find their pod wherever you find pods.

SPEAKER_00: 11:23

Yeah, check it out. And without further ado, enjoy all right, friends.

SPEAKER_01: 11:36

Welcome back to the Mid-Packer Pod. This is a special episode because I got my man, John Eisen, on the pod with me. We I thought I was gonna finish Dark Divide with this man, and we spent 11 hours together, and I ended up having the worst night of my life. And John was basically with me all the way up until the wheels just fell off, and I could think of no other person to come on for us to just for one talk about Dark Divide because I think the race is amazing. Um even though I had yeah, a not so amazing experience. Uh, and then, but I also wanted to get uh introduce John to the audience too. So John, how goes it? How you doing, brother? Thank you for having me. Um, it goes well. I'm I'm happy to be here. Yeah, dude, stoked to have you. And then if the audience doesn't know, John and his wife, Miranda, produce a podcast called uh Running with Problems. Is that correct? I get that right. Running with Problems is correct. So talk about the show for a minute and then we'll dive into Dark Divide.

SPEAKER_00: 12:35

Yeah, I can put on my podcast voice. Hello and welcome. The uh yeah, running with problems is it's a passion project of my wife and I. We don't monetize it in any way. We just like to interview people out in the community that we meet that have, I guess, have problems. I find that like most of my running is uh filled with issues. I like to say that everything I learned from trail running, I learned by failing. So we we take that vibe into the podcast and we try to we try to explore issues, everything from um like injuries, psychological issues. We've done some good episodes on overtraining syndrome. Uh we just had Amelia Boone on. She's she's very open with a lot of her history with eating disorders. Uh so just it kind of runs the gamut of problems. We've but the hilarious part is we started the podcast as a relationship advice podcast for runners. Okay. I mean, it's super niche, right? Like, how many people? How many what is the audience like capacity for that? I'm not sure. But about eight episodes in, we we decided to switch everything and just be more broad. Talk about a lot of problems. And yeah, we we release bi-weekly, and you guys should check it out if you enjoy it. My wife's on it, she uh she tempers me a bit. Yeah, we were joking.

SPEAKER_01: 13:57

I was like, your job on when we talk about your job is to turn the mics on me and we're gonna talk about my DNF at Dark Divide. And I was like, Your job is to keep us on the rails, and you're like, Troy, that's what my wife does on our podcast. I'm like, so we got two loose cannons that are basically gonna go hard in the paint about Dark Divide today. So the audience is in for a treat.

SPEAKER_00: 14:16

Deep into one subject. There's nothing wrong with that. We just keep going down, you know?

SPEAKER_01: 14:21

Uh uh Well, that's good because we're gonna we're gonna make this all about all about Dark Divide. So I guess where what I want to start with is the crew that I ended up becoming adopted by. Like the Colorado crew showed up. Why, like I met my my buddy Kevin, who I know from the free trail community, introduced me to you and Miranda when you guys showed up. Yeah, yeah. We had been there for most of the day, and then many other people showed up, and like ultimately it turned into like some reunion for the high lonesome crew. And then uh we spent a good, I mean, we spent a lot of time pre-race hanging out, but like why tell the story really quickly of why y'all all just ended up at this race together.

SPEAKER_00: 15:02

It was yeah, it was Providence. I guess I don't know. So I wanted to run Plane because I love the idea of running Plane. It's a race with one aid station in a hundred miles and no course markings. That just sounds like a race I would enjoy. And it's a it was a hard rock qualifier. And then over the so I and then I got my buddy Kevin. I wanted some other people to come out with me. I got a few buddies to sign up, but Kevin was the only one who kind of stuck around. And so we both signed up for plane, and then in July, sometime we got an email saying plane probably wouldn't happen due to uh due to fires. Essentially, there were some fires near the course, not on the course, but the permitting situation was rough. So one of our other friends, so Kevin is also uh, so I'm the communications director of High Lonesome. Kevin is like my assistant, so he's the assistant communications director. And then this other guy, David, is the volunteer director. And David was running this weird, wild race called Dark Divide. And David had actually gone out to Dark Divide, of course, and explored it, and like he had tried to get out on that Snagtooth road. Do you remember the road you slept on? Oh, spoilers. I I do know about I do remember the road. So so he like gets to that, so he is like uh had a run planned where he was gonna run to Snagtooth and then get picked up on that road. But there's a uh there's a there's a landslide that was blocking access. Well, he had no way of knowing that. So he's expecting to get picked up by his wife, but his wife runs into the landslide and and can't get any farther. And so they had a really difficult time like just training for the race on the course. So he came back with all these talking about how it was super wild, and I was thinking, okay, plane might not happen. So what am I gonna do? I had a goal of running four hard races this year, and so I needed a fourth, right? If plane didn't happen, I needed something else. And uh the weekend that uh Dark Divide was is one week prior, and it just worked out a little better for me. And so I got I got Kevin. Uh I was like texting with Kevin, I was like, hey, we should switch to Dark Divide, and plane was really cheap, so it was kind of it's like okay to like donate that money uh because it has no eight stations. So I don't know, me and Kevin just decided let's switch to Dark Divide. They're both in Washington, they're both really hard. Now Dark Divide is a hard rock qualifier, so we we get our hard rock qualifiers.

SPEAKER_01: 17:28

So yeah, check that box.

SPEAKER_00: 17:30

So so Kevin switched, and then and I looked at the start list, and two other Hilo adjacent people were gonna be there, Dave Scheibel and Kevin McBride, Chris McBride. Uh Dave Dave used to be a legacy runner of Hilo. Chris runs our one of our aid stations every year, but Chris ended up having knee surgery, so he couldn't make it. But we ended up having yeah, David Fox, Dave Scheibel, Kevin Smith, and me, four Hilo associated people all going out to this tiny race in Washington. It was pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01: 17:59

Yeah. And tiny is an understatement because I think 50 people, 50 people started the hundred less than 50 people started the 100 miles. Yeah, it's less than 50 people. It's like 40. Yeah, 40 something. Yeah. And um pretty, I mean, I just from the let's just do it by the numbers, right? So it's it's a hundred miles, it's this weird, it's a you do this little loop in the beginning, and then you do three other loops, and then the loops are connected by these lines, and the lines are basically the ridge lines.

SPEAKER_00: 18:26

Is that like it's kind of a kind of a figure eight, it's like an it's like a a lollipop figure eight. Yeah, exactly. With a few out and backs to aid stations.

SPEAKER_01: 18:37

And uh out and backs to to summits. And yes, it's got 27-ish, you know, between 26 and change and 27 and change, thousand feet again. Um and it is out there, it's out there, and it's also out there on, and we'll get into this, I think, when we talk about uh the the next day you're you're set you're running during Saturday, but they're built on the the trail network was built by um uh dirt bikers. Cyclists, dirt bikers, dirt bikers, and so they don't really know there's only like in the the in the 50 miles that I managed to complete of the course, there was only like three real switchbacks that were like real switch, like maybe four real switchbacks. All the other switchbacks are these like big loping like J turns that are like underfoot, very sketch, not sketchy, but like uproots. It's not like a hard turn switchback. It's just like it's what you would want to ride on if you were a dirt bike and you were trying to make a big turn down a mountain. Um and it's lots of volcanic course to be just super loose underfoot. Yeah, the whole the whole course is full of like volcanic, basically volcanic ash, um, and uh roots and rocks. It's like very it's pretty technical stuff. Um I think the highlight is you get these epic views of the three volcanoes that are that are in the area, and that's kind of and you do that early, and that's where you and I spent a lot of time.

SPEAKER_00: 20:06

So I think before we get into the race itself, I would like to know why you signed up for the race. I don't know, establish like what attracted you to Highlands or not Hilums, sorry. Dark Divine.

SPEAKER_01: 20:20

Very good, very good question, John. And I needed a hard rock qualifier. This was the year. I had Moge on on my on on my bingo card for this year, and then it sold out. And I'm like, if I'm being honest, like financially traveling to go run a hundred miler and paying 400 plus dollars to go run is like not wasn't something I probably should have should should do. But I need this, I like have this long-term goal, it's to run a hard rock, it's to run hard rock, like every year counts, right? And I know this. And so I made the decision once um Mogeon was cancelled. I looked and I saw this race, and I'm like, oh, it's technically it's the same weekend, it's lining up. I was training like I was gonna run a hard hundred. Um, Mogeon is not as hard as Dark Divide. I don't know, like I never ran Mogeon, but like on paper, on paper, Mogeon's not as hard as Dark Divide. Um and Mogeon's hard. It's no yeah, we're not saying it's easy. It's a hardware qualifier, it's definitely hard. But um, and then I was like very intrigued, and I was like, oh, there's this race, it's dark divide. I signed up for the race. Like it turned midnight on Monday morning. Like the 10 days before the race, yeah, like two weeks before. Like when when registration the day registration was gonna end that morning, Sunday night, I was in bed on my phone, and I'm like, dude, literally, I am signing up for a no interest credit card on my phone so that I can pay the inch so I could pay the entrance in the travel for this race. Like, that's basically how I'm like doing the classic you boys got jerk or A Station Fireball meme, where like I am putting myself in credit card debt in order to go run a hundred. This is not uh financial advice. No, I don't condone anyone. Do this. I was a fucking idiot, and I'll be excuse, excuse the language. And let's just say, like, I signed up for the race that Monday. I told my wife that Wednesday, and I there was a long silence followed by a lot of explaining by myself and losing like every point I've ever earned. I I mean I'm definitely running in the negatives when it comes to like we're good. We're I'm not saying we're, you know, it's not terrible, like nothing bad's happening, but I'm like, I'm in the doghouse. I will be in the doghouse probably till like after new year at this point. So till you finish a hard rock qualifier. Yeah, until I finish the hard rock qualifier. And I'll dovetail back into this once we talk about like the first conversation I actually had with my wife after. I mean, no spoiler here, like the DNF, but um, so that's like to your point, that's the why. Like, I needed a hard rock qualifier. I like to do hard things, and I will say, when I signed up for this race, I started looking at it, started reading about it. I was like, I am I am sc I was a little intimidated. I was definitely intimidated by the race itself. I was like, I am slightly scared of this, and that's a good I thought that was a good thing, to be honest with you, going into it.

SPEAKER_00: 23:13

So yeah, it was yeah, it was definitely intimidating to be approaching.

SPEAKER_01: 23:20

Yeah. And then I flew in like the Wednesday before that day, ran around, you know, um, went to Whole Foods, grabbed a bunch of provisions, got ice. Like, I rented this to rotation with a cooler. There was an option to add a cooler. So I was like, dude, I will Turo a vehicle. Like, if anyone hasn't done this, Turo is like my new jam. I've done this in the past, but it's been a minute. Uh so like loaded the cooler up, and then I actually slept like in the parking lot of in the wrong space because I didn't have like dude the we'll get into the direct like information. The information about the race, right? So, like just finding the race. Just finding the race is definitely a challenge. And then I so I get into like I slept in the parking lot of like what is it? The set is it uh what's the name of the Cispis Learning Center? Learning Center. So I slept in that parking lot the night before, and then ultimately met all of y'all the next day. Um yeah, and I think that that is a good lead up into like pre-race, so yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 24:19

Yeah, that was yeah, look finding the I I remembered look like looking for the start line, and there's like this white sign that's just folded over on itself, so you can't, and it's so tiny and poor and like not written boldly. Just drove right past it. Like there's nothing on this road, and I still couldn't see the sign.

SPEAKER_01: 24:37

Yeah, I I woke up the next morning in the parking lot, and like I had this floodlight shining through the back of the forerunner. I like had this camping mattress set up and I was sleeping. It was a good sleeping setup, but I had this floodlight shining into the back of the forerunner. So I slept like garbage Wednesday night. And I woke up and I finally went over to the office because the office was right there, and there's two really kind ladies in there, Pat and I don't remember the woman's name. And I was like, hey, thanks for not waking me up. She's like, they're like, Yeah, I was like, I'm here for the race. They're like, Oh yeah, Dark Divine. She's like, Yeah, I was like, it's actually across the street. They gave me directions like where to get. And when I finally pulled in, because I was like the first person on site, I pull in and I'm like, man, I wish I knew this is where I needed to be the night before. Because there's like it's like dark, it's a camp, there's a campground, like it was, it would have been ideal setup for me, you know what I mean, to sleep, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 25:23

So the other side was like it's like an office parking lot. It wasn't like a campground.

SPEAKER_01: 25:29

No, no, it's uh so anyway, so that's like so. Then we end up there, and it's a it's a great like to talk about the space, the space where they're holding the race, it's a really nice place to hold a race. It's a really nice place to hold uh they do multiple events. They have the 100 miler, the 100k, they do a 50k, and they also do like the is a 30k, 25k, half marathon, something like that.

SPEAKER_00: 25:49

It's like uh, I think there's a 50k and a 14 mile fun run.

SPEAKER_01: 25:55

Yeah, that's right. The fun runs 14 miles. Uh so they run multiple distances, all kind of random variations of part of what I would say is the most epic part of the course, except for like they do an addition.

SPEAKER_00: 26:08

The 100k is really hard. That's weird logistics. The 100k actually starts two and a half hours away and runs back. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 26:18

The 100k starts at the eight the eight station that I dropped at.

unknown: 26:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 26:24

It's a whole thing. Yeah, so so then like I'm there in the morning, Kevin shows up, we're hanging out, and then you guys showed up, and then like we get there's this six, it's a six p.m. race briefing. It's mandatory. And that's when we met. Yeah, we kind of met a couple hours before that. We're all hanging out. Me and like me and the Colorado crew all hanging out at this picnic table, talking, and having a good time. I was like, oh, this is kind of cool. Like, and then it's like six o'clock and no one knows where the race director is. And then it's like six thirty and no one knows where the race director is. And finally, at like six forty-five, and people are starting to get like anyone that wasn't sleeping on site, like you, Moran, like uh David Fox. David, David was starting to get frustrated. Yeah, he lived for he was saying 40 minutes away. He was starting to get frustrated. Everyone's like, listen, I just want to go eat something and go to bed. And then Sean rolls in, and like, man, I like I spent two hours in a car after I DNF with Sean. Like, I have a I have a I I am a fan of Sean, right? Okay, but this guy came in like a hot mess to his mandatory race director meeting.

SPEAKER_00: 27:31

40 minutes late, everyone was frustrated, visibly frustrated. And he's just like carrying like what is a hobby horse with a unicorn head? A pink unicorn hobby horse.

SPEAKER_01: 27:44

And I do you remember? Did you hear what he said about the unicorn? Because I didn't catch it. Did you actually catch what he said? Like the reference of why he had the unicorn?

SPEAKER_00: 27:53

He just held it up and it was like, I don't know if this doesn't tell you about me, I don't know what will. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01: 28:03

Um and like I I mean, to his credit, he had course vandalization vandalization, and he had spent the last like two days trying to clean up, trying to fix the course. And the reason why he was he had a good reason, basically he had a pretty good reason to be late, but at the same time, we're just like, this is not getting off to a good start, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00: 28:20

And he asked, everything on this course is so far away. So if he had to if he had to remark anything that was more than the first 10 miles, yes, to drive an extra hour.

SPEAKER_01: 28:34

But yeah, from the 50, it was a two and a half mile drive, two and a half hours, excuse me, two and a half hour drive from the my from the aid station at Wright Meadow, which is mile 52, back to the start finish. So it gives you an idea of like, and then there's you have to go cover the you have to cover the distance too, right? There's plenty of hiking, running that has to happen. So he shows up in a frantic and he's like, we sent out lots of bullet points, it covered most of everything. Basically, it's the but it was the most like anti, it's like so much buildup for very little it actually like stuff that you felt like you had to be there for, and then he opens it up for questions.

SPEAKER_00: 29:12

And I remember I'm like and then an hour goes by it's like how could you guys keep asking questions? Just stop fucking asking questions.

SPEAKER_01: 29:22

And the best, I think the best question was David. David's like, so what do the course markings look like? And Sean's like, oh, hold on a second, wait a minute, and he runs back to the U-Haul that he was driving and comes back with the course course markings. And I can't help but think in my head, I'm like, this guy brought a pink unicorn hobby horse to the meeting, but did not grab the course markings and the signs that we're all gonna follow, you know. So I was like, this is you know, I mean, it's and and when you meet Sean, you realize like he is definitely the vision guy. Like he is amazing, he would be an amazing to go to go to go like business structure. He is an amazing CEO. CEO he needs uh he needs an operating officer. He needs a chief operating officer.

SPEAKER_00: 30:04

He's definitely experiencing some some like growth like issues like uh definitely needs a little bit more help. He brought in that that woman, Kelsey, to help women with aid stations this past year. Yeah, but he needs to expand. She was like building the setting out the aid station equipment the day before the race, which I mean that's one way to do it. Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 30:28

And and I think the it and um we're not painting this race in a good light. It was an amazing executive race. The aid stations were actually it was okay.

SPEAKER_00: 30:36

I think in at that moment before the race, I was like, what the fuck are we getting ourselves into? Well 100%. This looks very plain. There was no check-in volunteers. I walked up, checked my name off a list, found my bib in a pile, pulled it out, and was like, I guess I'm running this race now. I haven't seen a person or told anybody I'm here.

SPEAKER_01: 30:56

Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that. It was check-in, it was it was a self-check-in at a hundred at a hundred miler. Self-check-in for all distances.

SPEAKER_00: 31:03

So there was a lot that was odd. But despite how late Sean was, I I I definitely felt endeared to him. He was open and honest, and he like had a moment where he was about to cry because he talked about um his recent medical issues.

SPEAKER_01: 31:22

And which he feels like he may not be able to run 100 again. Like he's basically you could tell he's living, he's he's like extending his journey in ultra running through these experiences that he's creating for us, right?

SPEAKER_00: 31:34

I'm like, this guy needs to be in running with problems.

SPEAKER_01: 31:39

Yes, so I felt actually he'd be a really he'd be a really good guest. He would be.

SPEAKER_00: 31:44

Now I I thought that coming out of that pre-race meeting, it was very important for me to like get rid of any feelings of frustration. Did you did you were you frustrated? Did that carry through to the race?

SPEAKER_01: 31:58

I was, I mean, I'm a pretty like okay. Like I'm like, I'm like, I'm I don't want to be like I'm a duck, you know, like water. It's that was all that that whole experience was kind of I was like, okay, this is what we're doing, got it. It's like water off a duck's back, you know. I'm just gonna go to sleep, eat something, wake up the next morning, and we're gonna figure it all out. You know what I mean? Like and I mean that's kind of what happened, you know. Like it it it it was it was it was definitely interesting. Um it was interesting, but I think you could kind of feel this tension release after that meeting ended, and everyone kind of just like mosey off to do whatever it is they needed to do, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 32:36

So yeah, I I definitely like we I was had a 20-minute drive to the Airbnb I was staying on, and uh on my way there, my wife Miranda was driving, and I was just like, Look, John, talking to yourself here. If 40 minutes is the difference between you finishing this race and not finishing this race, you are not nearly as strong as you think you are. So get over it and move on. But I talked to my friend David, who uh who also ran the hundred, and he actually he let that frustration like affect him through, and it soured like the first 60 miles of the race for him. Like he just had a bad time. Yeah, well, like if you let these feelings carry over, they they affect your race. But I'm glad to hear that you were clear.

SPEAKER_01: 33:22

No, it was pretty. I mean, I felt I did it's uh I felt really good going into the race. Like I woke up the night, I got decent sleep the night before, I woke up on time, I felt like I got everything done. I was I didn't feel rushed at all, got to the start line and was like I mean we were sleeping a hundred yards from the start line. Yeah, I mean that makes it easy, but like at you know, at the same time, I just like I got to drink a fuck a full cup of coffee, I got to take the kids out, kids to the pool, like I got to do like all the things you want to do before you start a hundred mile journey. Um, and yeah, and then we get to the start line, it starts, you know, you do this, you do this little loop, and me and Kevin settled settled into this good pace together. You kind of came up behind us, and then you and I just kind of like locked it. It's almost like we locked in. You had to use the bathroom for a second. I was like, you know what? I could, I could, I could, I could go number one. So I went when there's a real bathroom, and you make this loop and you come back, and there's real bathrooms, and you were talking about you had to go go to the bathroom. I was like, you know, there's real bathrooms. I was like, I you're like, I know, I've been thinking about that real bathroom for a minute, and then you use the porta potty, which I thought was interesting, but I mean, I I had to use a bathroom, and I wanted to use the least time consuming bathroom.

SPEAKER_00: 34:37

There wasn't a lot of stalls in that real bathroom.

SPEAKER_01: 34:39

There was only one stall, you're right.

SPEAKER_00: 34:40

There was no one in that stall, but I thought I saw somebody go in there, like when I ran up and I was like, I don't want to deal with that. I'm just gonna use this open one right here. Uh yeah, and then we got out. Everyone had let all like Kevin and they had all left us behind. So we were just we were just together.

SPEAKER_01: 34:56

Yeah, it was just you and me. And then like we just kind of I mean, we locked in. Like, we got to the first aid station, it's this decent climb up. I was like really appreciating the pace that you were setting when because we you hit that one, that first climb. The you're on the fire road for a long time, and we were just like kind of hanging out, and then you hit this like stupid steep climb that goes on for a couple miles, and you're just like you settled in 3,000 feet. Yeah, you settled in, and I was like, Oh, I really appreciate that. John is like not in any rush, and and there was no rush at all, like not in any rush at all. And I'm like, Oh, I kind of need this because I'm like, you know, it's like I'm just notorious for like the back half of these things, not I mean, they never go great, but I'm just notorious for like dealing with big problems in the back half of these things. And I'm usually I usually attribute it to it after I do like a post-mortem of like you probably went out a little bit too hard in the first half if you're like you know, on the struggle bus for the second half. And I'm like, cool, this is great. Like, John actually, like the guy's from Colorado, he climbs at altitude, he's done like some hard races, like he's like setting up terrible at altitude, by the way. No, but I'm like, you understand what like that it's okay to have like a relative, like it was a slow pace. We were climbing it was slow, it was you know, and we were taking our time. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00: 36:14

I mean, when you're shooting for a 40-hour finish, like your average pace is like under four miles an hour. So there's really no reason to be throwing down on the first climb of the day. I think that's my attitude when it comes to any hundred, as long as I'm going for like just finishing, like just being a mid-packer, just sitting there in the mid-pack. It's just like you can't go out slow enough. And I just try to do that every time. And I'm glad you stuck with me because it even on the road climb, we were like walking the tiny hills. I was like, I know you were like, I don't know, you're like this is just me.

SPEAKER_01: 36:47

You're like, we should walk this. And then finally, I was like, we should jog some of this. You're like, Yeah, you're probably right, we should jog. Because it was like, it was very much, it was way less than douchebrade. It was way less than douchegrade, yeah. Um, but like it was appreciating it, like, and and then like we got into the first aid station, you left a little bit before me, we caught up, you were like, Hey, I'm eating, and you were like put putting a gel down, so I kind of kept going. We kind of did this little leapfrog thing as you climb, you climb up and out, you climb up onto the ridges basically. You run you climb through this forest and you end up on the ridge, and by the time we got on the ridge, we were basically running together. And these are like we shared the most epic, in my opinion, if at least what I saw, the most epic part of the course. We pretty much shared it together and did a couple out and backs. It was like there's three summits that you had to do these out and backs on. Um, and they're just like it's like amazing 360 views of the Cascades, and you know, you had what is it, Hood, Adams, and Rainier just like it was Mount St.

SPEAKER_00: 37:48

Helens uh instead of Helen. Yeah, yeah. But Helen's is like cut off at the top because you know, blew the top off some time ago.

SPEAKER_01: 37:57

We had a little bit of haze from some fires, but the AQI wasn't terrible, and I think it made it for an interesting mute, it made for some moody views because like you would look out and you would say, like, oh, this is epic, and then you would look again and you're like, Oh, there's Rainier. Like it would kind of like materialize out of the haze, and you're like, Oh, there it is, you know. And I was like, This Adams is amazing.

SPEAKER_00: 38:19

Really, Adams looked really beautiful at sunset and sunrise. Like it was just it was the closest one to us, and it's very striking. And it was every time you were up above tree line, which wasn't too often, just like on the summits, uh, and a few of the high points on the Dark Divide Ridge. Uh, but it was absolutely incredible. I agree. Yeah, and that that was like that was a big that was a big uh thing for you. You you enjoyed seeing the views, you don't get those National as much.

SPEAKER_01: 38:47

No, no, I run in the Green Tunnel, man. So I was like, this is pretty epic. And you're like, this isn't so bad. And I'm like, yeah, freaking Colorado boys, you know what I mean? So uh and we we get views.

SPEAKER_00: 38:57

I got a view right there.

SPEAKER_01: 38:58

So yeah, so it's spoiled. Yeah, you guys are spoiled. And I was like, this is pretty cool. And then there's this one spot where you climb to the top. What is the name of the one that you have to take? They have like literally have a handrail that you have to climb up to the side.

SPEAKER_00: 39:10

Oh, that one's sunrise.

SPEAKER_01: 39:12

Yeah, so sunrise.

SPEAKER_00: 39:14

We get to have like a pipe handle, yeah, at a pipe handle, exactly.

SPEAKER_01: 39:17

We get to the top of sunrise, and like you throw your poles down. I'm like, what's he doing? And I look up because I didn't notice. I like did not had not seed the and you're like scrambling, and it's like it's a scramble. It's kind of like it's high three class, low four class scramble with a pipe handle, you know what I mean? Like, and like, and I'm like, oh, that's a smart move. So I like threw my poles down too, because it's like this little you just go up to the top of the nub, and but it's this flat, perfectly flat summit where you have like this epic 360 view. You know how something's fourth class?

SPEAKER_00: 39:47

How you have to put your beer in your pocket in order to get up it.

SPEAKER_01: 39:51

I had to use two hands, yeah. So that's yeah, yeah. I definitely had to if I had a beer, I would have had to put it in my pocket. So um and so we scrambled up and down that, and then it's like you go down to the aid station, and then it's you get down to that second aid station, and then it's a six-mile fire road descent.

SPEAKER_00: 40:10

Yeah, I mean, this is the end of the first 25 mile section. And you've we've spent 18 miles of it on the ridge, and we've been just together pretty much the whole way. Um, just talking about everything. It was uh we were working. I mean, we did that section, I mean, eight and a half hours. That was my fastest 25 miles of the whole race. So sure. Yeah, I don't know, compared to the rest of it, it was going pretty quick.

SPEAKER_01: 40:38

And then you make this six mile downhill, you stop to do to do something with oh, you start to put on some, you stopped to do something, and I was like, I'll just keep running.

SPEAKER_00: 40:47

I just let I don't I don't I don't run roads super great, so I just I just let y'all you there were a couple girls in front of us, and yeah, I just I just let y'all go so I could get down at my own pace without seeing you in front of me and feeling like I had to keep up.

SPEAKER_01: 41:02

Nice.

SPEAKER_00: 41:02

Yeah, I should have it's sometimes sometimes you just gotta take care of yourself on a hundred.

SPEAKER_01: 41:07

I well, I should have stuck to like I should have been like, John knows how to John's pacing right, you know, but I was like, I wasn't you didn't get down that much faster. No, I was like two minutes, I was like, yeah, it was two minutes ahead of you. It wasn't that big of a deal. I felt like I realized when we got down, I was like, oh, I'm a little warm. But I was like, cool. Like I sat down in a chair, I like filled my bottles, did my thing.

SPEAKER_00: 41:28

They didn't have any ice at the that aid station was super important because it was after those 25 miles, like we were pretty gassed. I don't know about you, but I was dehydrated. Were you? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 41:38

I was, I mean, I I I definitely chugged down half a bottle that I didn't drink while I was up while we were up there, and then filled my bottles, and then drank an entire like 12-ounce soda, and ate like I ate like a couple orange wedges, I c ate a slice of watermelon, I grabbed a bag of potato chips. At that point, you and I were kind of leaving. You left a little bit before me, but I I spent longer at Aid Station than you did, and we left together somewhat basically. We ended up catching right back up with each other, and we were feel I was feeling good. I ate half a bag of potato chips, but like to set it up, like that's the beginning of the Dark Divide wilderness right there.

SPEAKER_00: 42:18

And so you have So this is the crux section. This is the wilderness crossing. Yeah, we should set this up, like it's 26 miles between real aid stations. And you and there is a my at mile like 12, there's a stream you can filter water from, and at mile 16, there's a minimal aid station. You have to do the shitty fucking downhill out and back that you have to climb on the way out.

SPEAKER_01: 42:43

It's really bad. It's really bad.

SPEAKER_00: 42:45

I felt that this 26 miles, like on paper, it's not as hard as that first 25, but in practice, it's a crux of the race for sure. Yeah, no, you just have to it was 85 degrees and humid, which you know, maybe that's standard for you, but for me, I was like, this is this is hot. I didn't carry enough water for that section. I was rationing, it was real I so I was pretty scared of the section, and I just wanted to make sure I was ready. So I drank a lot, ate a lot, and loaded up everything I could. Did did you have like a drop bag there?

SPEAKER_01: 43:20

I did. I had a drop bag. I like grass, dude. I had so much, dude. I I had so many freaking calories on me for that section, and I had three bottles, I had two 650 ml bottles that were filled, and then I had one 20 ounce bottle, which is basically another 650 ml. So I had like three 20 ounce bottles on me for that section.

SPEAKER_00: 43:40

So a little under two liters. I had about I had just like I had only like 300 milliliters more, so pretty.

SPEAKER_01: 43:46

Yeah, and and then like it was just and I also had like a filter bag, like I had a uh a B-free filter with a with a liter and a half filter bag. So if I needed to, I could have like tanked on even more water when we actually got to water. So I was like, I was I felt prepared for the section, and I to your point, I ate a lot in that aid station. I ate more than yeah, like it's what I wanted to do, and then um, you know, we climbed we what was that?

SPEAKER_00: 44:13

There was that one turn we climbed out of there, we were on this trail called the Dark Meadow Trail, which is another one of the great trail names in the world. Uh which I think it's the meadow below Dark Mountain, which Dark Divide is obviously named after Dark Mountain. So yeah, we we we climbed up. It was like pretty even climbing, not graded too hard. Uh, but you know, at this point I was already dehydrated, gas, knew I was going into the hardest section of the course. So again, no rush, taking it easy. And uh yeah, we we just kept chatting, going up. Uh, there was a turn off to the right, but uh that was for later in the race. That's like it's kind of like where we started our like uh large like figurate loop.

SPEAKER_01: 45:06

And and like you we passed Dark Mountain and Dark Meadow. We were like Dark Meadow, then Dark, you're like, that's Dark Mountain, and then you're like fiddling around with something, and I was like, I'm gonna go ahead because I need to go to the bathroom. And so I went ahead. No, this is kind of when everything started to fall apart for me, if I'm being honest. So like I went, I went ahead. You took off. I went ahead and I dug a hole and I was doing my business, and then like I saw you pass me.

SPEAKER_00: 45:30

I heard you and I I respected your privacy and didn't look at you.

SPEAKER_01: 45:34

I didn't think you looked, I didn't think you did. So and then I was like, or let's get started. And then when I started, and like things were starting to feel bad, but then like I don't know what happened, man. Like, I just like my stomach just started to feel very fragile, is the only how I could tell. I could, and I was able to kind of put calories in, but I wasn't like I I remember reaching in and grabbing like the half a bag of potato chips that I hadn't eaten out of my pack, and I ate those and they went down really well. And I was like trying to catch up, but I was also trying to keep my pace like even. I knew you were only like a minute or two ahead of me, and then like I remember like I was still moving pretty well when we got to that little trickle that wasn't the real creek, but you think it's the creek.

SPEAKER_00: 46:17

Yeah, so this was after the the quartz creek, which hilarious. I love this. The whole system is dirt bike trails, but you get to Quartz Creek and it's just like this you're on the ridge, you take a left, and then straight down.

SPEAKER_01: 46:31

That's the turn I'm talking about. That quartz creek trail was pretty was pretty legit.

SPEAKER_00: 46:35

Yeah, and and it it had a sign that said no motor vehicles, and you look down and there's just motorbike tracks, and I'm like, okay, sure. Yeah, that's what this is so far deep, like nobody cares.

SPEAKER_01: 46:46

Nobody gives a shit about the rules. And then that section of trail, like epic forests, like one thing to set it up for the audience, like you're in Washington's largest roadless wilderness. So, like, this forest technically hasn't been touched for like hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years. There's never been a road in this wilderness. So the Forest Service doesn't go out there and maintain it. Like, it's it's as the way Sean described it is that like this forest is what all of the Pacific Northwest and Northern California would have basically looked like before us white people showed up and did what we did to the to to to this country, right?

SPEAKER_00: 47:27

And then like whatever, but like it looked wilder than your beard, like it was it was not percent. And the train kind of like so wide, like you could stand next to a tree and reach like this, and you wouldn't you wouldn't be able to get halfway around.

SPEAKER_01: 47:40

You're huge. And and the terrain just kind of rolled in a way that you didn't realize how much gain you were, you know what I mean? Like it didn't seem like it's in and out of like creek beds, yep, and going up and down, and you didn't realize how much climbing you were actually doing. To your point, you were like, it's 85. It didn't feel hot to me, but that's this that's the section where like I just think I cooked myself pretty good and didn't realize I did it. Because we got to that little we got to that little trickle, that little creek.

SPEAKER_00: 48:11

The trickle, the trickle, it's just like it's just like trickling off of a rock.

SPEAKER_01: 48:15

And I'm thinking, I'm thinking, this is the place where we have to filter water. I'm like, how are you sweet? I was like, how am I supposed to? I like sat there and tried to fill a bottle, and I was like, How long did you stand there? Like five minutes, dude. Oh my god. And I got like a third, I got like a third of a bottle in five minutes. You know what I mean? I'm like, I gotta get out of it, dude. If I if I die of dehydration, so be it, right? Like I gotta get out of it.

SPEAKER_00: 48:40

I was like, well, I gotta keep moving. I might as well die out there. Like, I don't know. Like, I there was like a snake in there when I went in there, like a little garter, like a little garter snake slid out from under the like underneath this rock when I walked over there. It was like this is fuck.

SPEAKER_01: 48:55

So But then there was a real stream, like a half a mile later is like a freaking real creek that's like flowing crystal clear cold water, and I'm like, okay, sweet, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 49:05

So at this point, were you thinking about like heat management?

SPEAKER_01: 49:11

No, I mean I got my hat wet. I should have probably gotten every you know, I should have just gotten everything wet, but I was already kind of wet, and it was like I was like, I don't know, man. I was not, I did looking back on it, is like I wasn't taking the opportunities I should have to like really, really cool off. And I probably should have done that. It didn't feel that hot, but the humidity and the heat, and it wasn't that I mean, gosh, dude, where I train right now is so humid, and it just didn't you're used to that, it didn't feel that bad, but it that was the point where things started to really like like I stopped drinking out of my bottles, which was my liquid nutrition. I did not go to like the little tiny, I had these little like Sammy bars, these little bars that are like little three byte little oat bars, and I didn't go to those, but I probably should have instantly been like one once I was like eh, I should have instantly just started like trying to pound calories. And what happened is I ended up going like we got to the 51 mile, we got to the 31 mile mark, and I didn't really once we got to that 50k mark, like I didn't really eat calories, but those potato chips for like the next 10 miles.

SPEAKER_00: 50:20

We were together at 50k. We were together at 50k like right after that.

SPEAKER_01: 50:24

We split up right after that, but that's what I'm trying to say is like I didn't really eat calories except for that half a bag of potato chips for like the next 10 because it's mile 42 that you get to this next quote unquote aid station, and it just like everything started slowing down for me. I really started to feel it. Uh, I started to like I was dry heaving, and then finally like I puked, and it was like nothing but nothing came out but bile, and I was like, this sucks, yeah. This sucks, you know. And then I tried to drink a little bit. No, and then I drank a little bit, and then like after I drank a little bit, it would like I would sip, and five minutes later I'd be like dry heaving again, and I'm like, this sucks. So then I didn't really take anything in except for the tiniest little sips, and I ended up like putting my bottle. Once I got to the creek, I put my bottles to half strength. I like poured half of whatever half of my mix out and filled the rest of it with water. Cause I'm like, okay, now I have some calories, but like let's like let's see what what can we do here to try to like start to triage this because it's not good. And I remember that climb that you mentioned that you get to see Adams, and the sun was setting, and the sun and and it was the glow was coming off of it. Cause we weren't that far. I was still at that point, I still wasn't that far close behind me behind you guys, and like I remember seeing I remember seeing someone coming up behind me, and it was Dave. And Dave shows up and we start talking, and I like latch onto him, and I was like, sweet. So then I was with him really, we were moving really well for like a couple miles, and then we hit that turn. We saw that epic sunset, I took a picture, then there was like the sunsetting, and I was like, I took that picture, and I'm like, this is really cool. And then you make the turn that's the out and back to that aid station to go to mile 42, that mile 42 quote quote unquote aid station, which it's supposed to be downhill, but then you start climbing, and you're like, what the fuck? You start climbing, yeah. So you climb up the top of the knoll to get down it, and like that's the point where I lost date. Like, I lost David. There were some runners coming back up that had left that aid station on the out and back, and I remember stopping for one of them, and then David kind of just kept motoring, and like I just never caught David. He was gone, and I was like, Okay, and it it just like realized you were like you were like falling apart, like you were slowly exactly, dude. Pieces I I didn't realize it, but the wheels were just like like nuts and bolts were coming off the chassis, dude.

SPEAKER_00: 52:49

And it's really hard to unbonk without copious amounts of fresh water and a place to sit. I find like I mean, like you were in it, and you still had 10 miles to get to this fucking minimal aid station. Well, at that point it was less than 10 miles, yeah. So you were just like a mile away at this point.

SPEAKER_01: 53:07

I was a couple, we were a couple miles away, but things were really starting to like at that point, and like David really pulled me out. Like, we had a good conversation, I was like moving well with him. He was struggling too. I'm like, dude, where are you at? He's like, uh, I'm kind of on the sufferer bus. I'm like, yeah, dude, things are not great right now. And I had multiple people offer me Tums, and I should have taken it. And I'd never done Tums at a race before, and I'm like, oh, like like there's opportunities.

SPEAKER_00: 53:30

I'm a new believer in Tums.

SPEAKER_01: 53:32

So, like, there's opportunities for me to say, like, uh, the woman from um Rain Shadow that was running the home. Katie.

SPEAKER_00: 53:40

She ended up DNFing.

SPEAKER_01: 53:42

I know, but she passed me in that section where we had all the uh the scrub addler or whatever they were called, that like weird overgrown section of trail. She passed me there, and no, it was cool, but she was like, Hey, you need anything. I was like, No, my stomach is garbage. And she's like, You want some Tums? I was like, No. And I should have been like, Yeah, like I'll take two of those, please. Thank you very much. You know, like Tums have zero side effects, it's just calcium. So, like, I anyway, like, get we we get back to this climb, and like Dave's gone. It gets dark enough to where I pull my headlamp out and we start this descent. And this descent, I buried myself on that descent. Like, I didn't even realize how bad it was. And I was like going so freaking slow. And then the first headlamp I see is like Kevin, and I sit down off the side of the trail, and I'm like, and and like there's like a log there. So I sit on the log, he's like, he stops and he talks to me. He's like, How are you doing? I was like, dude, I am struggling. And he's like, It's okay, like you'll be good. There's an eight station down there, they have walking tamales. You should eat one of these walking tamales. Oh, Kevin was all about the walking tamales. Get get set, get get get get reset yourself. I'm moving slow, you'll catch me. Let's finish together. Like he said that. I'm like, okay, cool. Like, guy.

SPEAKER_02: 54:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 54:52

So we keep I keep walking down the trail, and it's like, dude, struggle to get down this trail. And then I see you, and you're like, Did you die yet? I'm like, dude, I'm dead. Like it was you said something. You said something about what'd you say? God, you said something like, did you it's like it's like, did you did you bury yourself? I was like, dude, I'm dead, bro. I'm so dead. And I sat down and you were like, dude, just go down there, like take a deep take a big break. This is not the aid station you want to drop at. You can drop at the next aid station, right? That's like kind of what you told me. And I knew you were saying it to be like just to motivate me to keep me going. And I'm like, okay, I got it. Yeah, you're right.

SPEAKER_00: 55:30

Because seriously, extraction from that aid station is not easy.

SPEAKER_01: 55:35

It's not no bueno. I would have been I would have been waiting there for hours and hours and hours for someone to come get me. With no cover, just like the Bivi you have. Yeah. And then I keep going down the trail, and I'm like, I see a headlight coming up, and no, no, no. I'm like, I need to sl I need to sit down. So I sit down behind a tree and I nod off.

SPEAKER_00: 55:56

Before you even get to the aid station? Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 55:58

Yes. I sat down for like five or six minutes, and then that's when David goes by. And I don't even remember this. I turned my headlamp off, and I was literally like crucked behind this tree with my poles in my hands, like kneeled down at you know, ass on the ground, back on the tree. And David was like, he said something to me. And I remember talking to him later because we hung out afterwards, and he was like, Oh dad, I told you, I was like, dude, you'll be okay. Just get down there, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, I don't remember that at all. And he's like, huh, that's funny. So then I get up, I I hobble my ass into this aid station.

SPEAKER_00: 56:27

And where where's your uh, let's pause for a second, where's your um emotional state? You know, how like determined are you? Are you are you in a low? I mean, obviously you're moving very slow. Usually that makes you sad.

SPEAKER_01: 56:41

I mean, I'm in a I'm in a really low place. I'm I'm definitely in a really low place because I'm like, how am I dealing with this right now? Like, we're not even we're at mile 40. Like, this is what I need to be dealing with at mile set. If like if it was mile 70, it's like you fight, you push, you like, you know, like it's do like my mental, and I realize this, and I'll kind of get to it when we actually get to the DNF, but like by the time I got my my mental was it was shedding away. Like my mental fortitude was just slowly evaporating. And like I get down to this aid station, and they're like, There's a bunch of people there, they're all putting the pieces back together, and I sit in this chair, and there's like video, the guy, the younger kid there took video of me, and I was having conversations with them, and he took a video, he shared it with me. It was like, not like I got some water, I was able to drink a little bit of water, and they're like, How are you doing? I'm like, I'm not doing great, but and they wanted to like, did you need medical? They were really thorough, and these are like search and rescue guys, and they're like, they're really thorough, asking me questions, and I'm like, No, no, listen, like, this is not my first rodeo. I've definitely been like, like, I'm good. I don't need medical, I'm totally fine. I just like I just need a couple minutes, like, totally got it. You know, they like, I got it, got it.

SPEAKER_00: 57:53

You know, before before you got there, uh, I had been there, and I was I was not good, but I was still eating, drinking well. I just knew I was behind and I had to make up ground. So yeah, like typical hundred mile stuff, right? Like you just figure out whatever is going wrong and you try to fix it. And this young kid on the SAR team out there is like asking me questions, and he tells me straight out, he says, Wow, you look the worst of anyone I've seen. Which just like I just started laughing so much. I was like, dude, that is not what you say to me. Like, you have to say, You look great. And he was like, I don't know, like maybe you shouldn't be continuing. And I had to get like real stern with this kid. I was like, dude, I have been here before and I'm well within my capabilities. I am still eating, I am still drinking, I am still moving, and I am not peeing blood. So no, you're not stopping me. We're good, we're good. Also, also, like, and then I saw you on the trail, and I'm like, wait till that kid sees Troy.

SPEAKER_01: 59:00

Oh man. Uh so I get into this aid station and I realized very quickly, like, it's not just gonna turn around, right? And this aid, just for the audience, the aid station has cold, really cold water, which is great. And that was from the spring. They were filtering fresh water from the spring. They had walking tamales, which are these pre-packaged, pre-cooked tamales that are kind of moist. They're actually not they they were they were decent. Like they're pretty good. If you can handle it, and then they had spring energy gels, and that's basically what this aid station had. And I'm like, I get down to the aid station, and like all I want is a freaking cup of noodle. Like, cup of noodle would have saved my life. You know what I mean? Like broth, hot noodles, broth.

SPEAKER_00: 59:39

Like, yeah. So I was looking so forward to a cup of noodles.

SPEAKER_01: 59:42

I get into the aid station and I take my pack off. Within like a couple minutes, I'm like out of the chair, and I'm like, I'm in the I'm in my pack digging out my emergency bivi. And I put my pack on the ground, I put my my my windbreaker on the ground, and I like use my pack as a pillow and I unfold my emergency. Vivian, I just fold it over me and they're like, You good, dude? I'm like, Yeah, I'm just gonna sleep for a couple I'm I'm gonna lay down and sleep for like 20 minutes and see how I feel. I did that like five times. Like I said, uh yeah, yeah, I did sleep, but I set an alarm. I my alarm went off like probab four or five times, and I just kept snoo I kept resetting it. I kept turning it off and resetting it. Do you think that was a take in retrospect? Or I probably should have just set an hour alarm and gone down for the entire hour.

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:29

I mean, it's tough to give an hour.

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:31

I know. But at the time at the way I felt, I was like, I need like my stomach, I need a hard reset. And that's what I was looking for was like because 20 minutes were like after I slept the first time, I woke up 20 minutes after the alarm went off. I was like, Yeah, that wasn't long enough. Like I just knew, I was like, I need more, I need more, I need more. And then finally, like an hour and change went by, and I was like, I need to get up. And I got up, I sat up. The funniest part of it is during my sleeping, in and out of sleeping, I'm hearing these guys are talking, and they're like, Oh, there's only one more walking tamale left. And the kid's like, Oh, we man, I really wanted to try one of those, blah, blah, blah. And I in my in my sleeping stupor, I'm like, I would like to claim the last walking tamale, is what I said. And they threw it down by my head. So when I woke up, it was like right there. So I woke up, I ate a walking tamale, all but one bite of it. And I'm like, okay, okay. I'm like thinking to myself, like, really good. Yeah, this is good. This is good.

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:27

Like, and then stomach's looking again.

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:30

I filled my bottles with water, and I was like, We're gonna, we got 10 miles, we're gonna, I'm gonna get out of here. I started to get cold, so I put on like I had a windbreaker and a rain jacket, it's a really like soft, a soft rain jacket, like a really like it's not a hard, hard shell, but it's a rain jacket. So I put that on, put on the windbreaker, put on some gloves, and started rolling out. I rolled out of the aid station. I I grabbed, I brought like four spring. Yeah, it did. I brought like four spring energies with me, four or five spring energy gels. Because I was like, maybe the spring will stay down because it's like whatever, real food, and like it's just different than what I had, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:05

Like that new spring energy with that MCT oil. You know, I can talk about that later actually. Because I tried Running with Problems has a great episode about spring energy to see.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:16

I need to put it on the I'll put it, I'll put it on the docket. Nice.

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:20

We gotta put the food scientist on.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:21

I will put that in the show notes.

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:23

Um like uh so I leave the announcement heading out of Snagtooth, exactly.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:30

Hanging heading out of Snaggletooth, and within whatever, within half a mile, I'm like taking all the layers off because I finally warm up, you know, and it was really just cold down by the way.

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:41

Like it never got cold that night, and it was dark, definitely dark by then.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:44

Oh, 100%, very dark.

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:46

It was dark, it was probably midnight when you left, maybe 11.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:50

Yeah, 10 30, 11, something like that. Oh no, no, no, yeah, 10, 10, 10 30, 10 o'clock, 10 30, something like that. Um, and I leave the aid station and I felt good for about an hour, and then things went back to like I tried, I was trying to eat, I I like I got I ate about half of a spring energy gel. That's about all, that's all the calories that went into my body in the next 10 miles.

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:14

And I ended up this is basically So yeah, what happened? Like how because you were 10 miles to go.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:22

So 10 miles, it took me almost seven hours to go 10 miles.

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:26

So if you felt good for an hour, you probably traveled, I don't know, almost three miles.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:31

Two and a half, maybe. Because of the climb. So basically the whole climb that whole climb up, I felt good, right? Uh-huh. And then it all and then there's a descent after the water. There's a descent, and then you go through those meadows, and I was like, it was cold enough in the meadows, I would put on like it would get chilly in the meadows, and I would put on like my windbreaker and take it off. But like it turned into sad walking in the woods, like hard sad walking in the woods very quickly. And I would go about I would go like for an hour, it would take me about I would go two miles an hour. I would go like 30 minutes and a mile. I was going 30 minute miles, and then I would lay on the ground for 12 minutes and take a dirt nap. And I did that on repeat like six times.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:10

Wow. So you just like fell apart.

SPEAKER_01: 1:04:13

Were you taking caffeine? So that's a place where I definitely made a mistake because all of my caffeine was in pill form, like capsule, like tablet form.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:23

Yeah, those.

SPEAKER_01: 1:04:25

Yeah, because and I probably should have just like I made a lot of mistakes, and I probably should have just like stomached one of these pills, but I was like, do I really want to put I was worried, I was like, do I really want to put one of these down on an empty stomach that has it? What I should have done is taken a caffeine pill right after the walking to Molly, because I had food in my belly.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:44

Because you're because you're getting up from sleep, it's a perfect time to take caffeine.

SPEAKER_01: 1:04:48

And I didn't. I wasn't thinking about it, and it just like everything just freaking nosedived.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:54

And it's salt pills. I didn't have a sort of sort of sort of sort of extra salt.

SPEAKER_01: 1:05:00

I did not have any any extra sodium besides what was in um my bottles, which was hyper as well. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. So there's a couple things. I did have like two, I actually had two salt, like capsules, two salt capsules, but I wasn't thinking about putting that in. I was pretty out of it. And then like the last two miles, you get to that cool little pond before you like really that's like the last little bump before you head out to like the the the fire road down to the aid station. There's just like really cool pond. And there's people camping out there, and I saw their tent, but then like someone had taken a stump and like carved a back into it and made a chair. Like they literally, like a flat, flat and with a flat, like a bat actual back, like like carved it out with a chainsaw and made an actual chair, right? And I saw it, and I like, dude, I totally I like totally sat in this chair for like a couple minutes and just stared at the pond and was just like contemplating my life choices, you know what I mean? Like, do you remember Ultra Running Memes?

SPEAKER_00: 1:06:02

Sure, like prior, yeah. You remember the chair meme with the with the umla over the eye, chai year or whatever? Do you remember that meme? I kept a t-shirt because ultra running memes is the that's the original ultra running meme account, anyway. Yeah, so they had he had this meme where there was this it's this chair, and it's the shittiest looking chair, but you never want to get up from that chair. That chair is the chair you you sit down and everything ends up.

SPEAKER_01: 1:06:24

Yeah, everything ends. So like I got up out of the chair, but it was like perfectly placed in front of the lake, and it was just like whatever. I was like, cool, and then you climb up a little bump basically, and you're on the fire road, and it's a two-mile fire road to the aid station, and it's basically downhill, and it's all very runnable. And I sad walked the crap out of that fire road. Did the exact I I took I took a I took at least two dirt naps on that fire road.

SPEAKER_00: 1:06:49

Really?

SPEAKER_01: 1:06:49

Oh man, and like when I look back at it, uh let me just get like we get to the aid station and I walk up and they're like, they're like Mr. Meadows, you know, and I feel like I feel like Neo in in The Matrix, they're like, We've as you can tell, we've been what we yeah, well, it's like when when uh when uh he goes, as you can see, Mr. Anderson, we've been watching you for some you know, like it's like they're like Mr. Meadows, welcome to Wright Meadow Aid Station, you know, and I'm like, how do they know? And I'm like, of course they know because they're ham ra there's a bunch of ham radio operators, all these search and rescue guys have ham radios, and they like they know I was supposed to be where is the like I was the last person to leave Snaggletooth, Snagtooth, aid station. They were just about to send out two people were gearing up to go hike down the trail and go find and come find me. I roll into the aid station.

SPEAKER_00: 1:07:42

It took me 22 better, three people didn't make it to Snagtooth before they had to cut them off.

SPEAKER_01: 1:07:50

Yeah, no, I know.

SPEAKER_00: 1:07:51

I mean you weren't the in the very back.

SPEAKER_01: 1:07:54

So I it took me 53 hours and I looked at my watch. 53 hours, sorry, 23 hours and 45 minutes to go 52 miles on that course. Sean was there, and they're like, they kind of like, I had already told myself that I was dropping here. I was like, done, I am done. And like I get into the eight station, and they're like, they're like, you know, you're are you gonna drop? I was like, yeah, I think I'm gonna drop. And then Sean's like, I was like, and they're like, yeah, I think the eight, I think, I think the cutoff was 45 minutes ago. And Sean's like, no, no, no, the cutoff's in 15 minutes. And so I'm looking at my and I'm like How did you feel when you heard that? I was like, I'm still done. I was like, I was so like fuck this. Mentally, I was so gone, man. And then like the hard part, the the most frustrating part is I missed a hundred K start by like two minutes. Like literally, the dust had just cleared and the hundredk, like from the hundredk starting on the guys were running way too fast, way too fast. And then like I get into the aid station and they like have a cup of soup waiting for me. I drank a ginger ale, I ate like part of broth, part of the cup of soup.

SPEAKER_00: 1:08:55

I said station on the course.

SPEAKER_01: 1:08:57

It was amazing. That's it. I'm like, they're waiting for me to take me home, and there's two other guys that have dropped there too. And uh, Sean's gonna drive this SUV out. And like I made the decision. I said hi, I I met, I I introduced myself to the search and rescue team that was gonna go and come and find me. They were like, Oh, we're so happy to see. Everyone was very happy that Troy made it to the aid station. I will just say that. And then we get in, I drank.

SPEAKER_00: 1:09:22

I'm glad you didn't die out there too.

SPEAKER_01: 1:09:24

I had yeah, I I had half this cup of cup of noodle and like half of a cold-ish ginger ale by the time I get into this aid st into the into the the SUV. Within half an hour of leaving that aid station, which was probably like half an hour after cutoffs, like I was looking at Sean talking with him for a second, and I'm like, I feel pretty fucking good right now.

SPEAKER_00: 1:09:49

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:09:50

Like, I was like, it like all I like all I needed was a was a cup, well, a morning too, but like all I needed was a cup of freaking soup, man, and a ginger ale, and like life was good again. You know what I mean? And like so, looking back on it, and then I want to get into your race for a little bit because we've been going, I've been talking way too long, but so looking back on it, the few things when I say like where I made a mistake, the caffeine pill, I should have taken the caffeine pill after the walking to Molly. Uh, I probably before I ever got to that aid station, I probably should have taken a full bottle of hyperlite and downed it. Like when my stomach was in its most fragile state after I had puked bile, I should have just like loaded it up to see what it would do. Because if I can puke a bunch of liquid out, then maybe it's a puke and rally situation, not a dry heave bile and just continue to dry.

SPEAKER_00: 1:10:41

Did you have did you have enough liquid? I mean, this happened in Proxy the course, where I mean, but I was full on.

SPEAKER_01: 1:10:49

Like I had I had 60 ounces of fluid on, you know what I mean? I had I had I had I was full. Like I I was still very full of liquid.

SPEAKER_00: 1:10:56

Maybe that's why you got into the situation in the first place. Cause you had because you weren't drinking the water that was on your body.

SPEAKER_01: 1:11:04

And I didn't feel like I should have. Like my my point is, my stomach was like, stop, you know what I mean? Like it was it was very it was a very fragile state. And it was like I would sip water and five minutes later I would dry heave. So I was like, Oh, I don't want that. But I what I should have done is just said, like, to hell with my stomach, you're gonna deal with this, right? Like, maybe force the issue, almost force the issue.

SPEAKER_00: 1:11:23

Um you you sat down to sleep a few times. Did you ever sit down and just be like, Oh, I I'm gonna focus on trying to eat like slowly, like nibble? No.

SPEAKER_01: 1:11:33

No, I would try I was trying to I would yeah, I was trying to eat like when I ran, like when I was walking, but I was the jet, like I took half I couldn't get I couldn't even get an entire spring energy dell down in 10 miles. I tried. And then yeah, that's my problem. Yeah, you're like, I I have something to say about that. And then the only other thing where I feel like I'm if I would have just said, let's run this downhill, because I knew I was close to the aid station, and it's all that runnable fire road that going into the aid station, if I would have just ran that, and let's say I'm walking a 30-minute mile and I'm shuffling a 15-minute mile, now I just earn myself 30 minutes and I get into the aid station with 45 minutes to reset myself. And to me, that was the moment that would have been the difference between saying, you know what, I'm gonna continue on. But at the moment when I had 15 minutes feeling the way I felt, I was like, I did not sign up for a 40. This is like I'm gonna have a 48-hour race. And I'm like, I did not sign up for a 48-hour race, you know?

SPEAKER_00: 1:12:30

Well, this comes to a conversation we had prior to the race. Uh, I think we were sitting at that picnic table and I brought up like, are you committed? And I was just talking to everyone at this point, are you committed to 48 hours? And I remember Dave Scheibel, who ended up dropping about 25, was like, no, that's no way. And I was like, I don't care. Like, I am committed. I have I've dropped races because I was going too slow, even though I had plenty of time on the cutoff. Like, why weren't you committed to 48 hours? That's how long the race that's what the cutoff was.

SPEAKER_01: 1:13:02

I was so I was committed until it took me seven hours to go ten miles. You know what I'm saying? Like, I was committed when we started the race, I was committed to get it done. Like, I I had every bit of mental resolve to say, I am gonna get this done no matter what.

SPEAKER_00: 1:13:15

And then when the wheels fell off seven miles, seven miles over ten hours, it was it was uh, or sorry, ten miles over seven hours, it was twenty miles over fourteen hours. Yeah, totally. Totally. Double that.

SPEAKER_01: 1:13:27

Yeah, and I so like once I just got into a place mentally where it's like I wasn't able to tell myself that it was okay to get I was I was more than ready to stop. And it was just like I've never and I've never it's the first time I ever puked at it at an ultra, it's the first time I ever got myself in a hole so deep that I couldn't climb myself out before I was basically chasing cutoffs. And like it just was like it was time, and it's so funny because David said something, he was like, You pick the right aid station. If you're gonna drop, you pick the right aid station to drop at. Because after that, once you get to mile, once you get to the 100k pump mark, once you get to like you're you're once you get pot committed, you know, once you're at miles 65, 70, 75, you're like, you're kind of pot committed to finish. And like, let's get into the rest.

SPEAKER_00: 1:14:15

I mean, let's get into the rest of the day, the rest of that day of like you uh I mean, I would just say, you know, when it comes to DNF, feeling how you feel about your DNF, right? I mean, a lot of things went wrong, which yeah, I there was there were ways to fix them or things you could have done differently. But if you think about that race, they all went wrong during that crux point where there's no aid, there's no place to really get aid. The best thing you have is some young gun SAR person trying to take you off the course, right? Like he's not actually that helpful, you know. He's filtering some water, it's about the best he's useful for. So thank you so much. The entire SAR team that was out there doing helping run Dark Divide. Uh, just don't like somebody telling me I look terrible.

SPEAKER_01: 1:15:04

Yeah, no, total. And it's like so funny because I was actually just talking. Um, I have an athlete who's gonna run 100 in like 10 days, right? And I was telling him, like, it's his first hundred, and his wife's never crewed him before. And I'm like, Oh, great. I was like, so I was going through the things and I was like, listen, tell her to not ask you how you feel.

SPEAKER_00: 1:15:20

Yeah, it's a helpful question.

SPEAKER_01: 1:15:22

Yeah, like just say, What do you need? Say, tell have her tell you what do you need, not how do I feel, right? And because going back to that same thing with the Sar with the SAR guy is like, those guys should be like, What do you need? What can we do to get you out of here? Not like, oh bro, you look like you feel you look like you feel like shit. Do you feel like shit?

SPEAKER_00: 1:15:37

It was like, yeah, no shit.

SPEAKER_01: 1:15:39

Like somebody telling me I'm I'm dehydrated, and I'm like, no shit, Dick Tracy, I'm dehydrated. And and yeah, I mean, I guess the looking back on my DNF, it's like it's got it's like my first DNF. I mean, I guess it's like if you're gonna have one, Dark Divide's not a bad race to DNF at, you know, it's pretty freaking hard. If to your point, it happened in the crux. What would I have done differently? Like maybe have had more solid food, like as part of the nutrition plan early, because I was definitely fueling on more liquid calories and having something else to fall back on when things when like all of a sudden that wasn't gonna work for me, and figuring out like being able to have more options to kind of like problem solve with. But to your point, you're in the crux, and that crux is it's you you have to be self very self-sufficient for 26 miles, basically.

SPEAKER_00: 1:16:26

Yeah, and if you fall apart there, like it's all done. Like I mean, as they simplified by your experience.

SPEAKER_01: 1:16:32

Exactly. And then within two and a half hours, I'm back at camp. Uh, and I drove over to the showers where they had these like uh they had these like communal, they had these like uh cabins that had communic like like a long line of showers, and I'm like in the shower drinking a beer, being like, I feel way too good to have DNF. Like I literally told myself like, dude, you feel I feel way too good to have DNF'd right now. And then I messaged my wife, and then we'll we'll we'll we'll get on to your race, but like I messaged my wife and my dad because I had a little bit of service right there, and I messaged, I had a group there with my dad and and my wife, and I was like DNF mile 52. And then I went into town to eat breakfast, and when I called my wife, she's like, What happened? I was like, I just it all just fell apart and and and and you know, whatever.

SPEAKER_00: 1:17:17

And she didn't have to listen to this whole thing.

SPEAKER_01: 1:17:20

Yeah, and then she's like, Well, she's like, You don't sound that bad right now. I was like, No, I actually feel pretty good. And she's like, So what happened? You know, like kind of like, so why am I talking to you, dude? Like, if like she because she she under she gets it. She's like, if you're gonna DNF, man, like you need to I like I expect you, like, how are you doing? I was like, I just ate like three eggs and bread, you know, toast and hash browns and bait. She's like, What what do you mean your stomach turned?

SPEAKER_00: 1:17:44

You know, like I'm like, it just yeah, like it sounds like you can move so slow up there, and then you get breakfast in you and you feel so much better. Like things can just turn on a dime like that. But it was you don't have to be running anymore.

SPEAKER_01: 1:17:58

Yeah, and that and that's it's really funny because she was definitely just like, you know, you could tell, she's just like WTF, bro. Like, what happened? You made this really poor choice, in my opinion, to go out there and do it. And then you didn't even get it done, and now you're telling me that your stomach turned, but you don't sound all that bad. What happened, you know? And I'm like, oh, I love you, sweetheart, you know. Like that's why I that's why I married this woman because she's she's she's she's she's the hard ass that I need in my life when I need it, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 1:18:24

So do you think that guilt did that guilt ever weigh on you? Or or did or they wash off like water, like the frustration of the pre-race meeting? Like the guilt, like you because you said that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_01: 1:18:37

Well, like I never felt yeah, like I think that maybe there was a lot of pressure that I put on myself leading up to the race because of the decisions that I made. Right. That like I wasn't maybe it's like looking back on it, I'm like, oh well, what could have been these factors? And like that's kind of that's the only thing I could think of is just like there was a lot of pressure, and like I deal okay. I'm like really good under pressure, but there's all this like emotional subconscious stuff that was going on. And I kind of touched on it. Like, I'm I I made a decision, I didn't like have a family meeting about it, we didn't talk about it. I just decided like I'm gonna do this and you're gonna have to deal with it, right? Like, that's basically that was my mentality going into Dark Divide, and it only make I mean it's only fitting that at the end of the day it like didn't turn out the way I wanted it to, you know what I mean? It's kind of it's like I kind of am getting my just desserts over these decisions as opposed to what I normally do, which is which is have like open communication. Like I really want to be that that person, and I was like, I kind of made a very, very selfish decision and I got kind of I got kicked in the ass for it. So yeah. Well, teaches you. Yeah. Oh man. I can't wait to go back. I'm trying to figure out how am I gonna go back to Dark Divide next year. Like, I'll be honest with you.

SPEAKER_00: 1:19:55

So hopefully they'll have tracking next year.

SPEAKER_01: 1:19:58

So how's it so how did your race go? Because I imagine you left right, I imagine you left right meadow um some.

SPEAKER_00: 1:20:07

We split up like 50k. I would say like in in retrospect, the rest of the wilderness crossing went well, but it was a grind for sure. And I was running out of water by the time I made it to that stream. I also filtered at the little trickle, like I stood there for three minutes, and I was like, no, I'll I'll just die. It's not worth waiting here. And but I made it, yeah, I talked to that SAR guy. Finally, yeah, but I was moving, I was probably moving okay, like three miles an hour, just moving through the course. Um and I left right meadow past Kevin on the way out of right meadow. Right meadow aid station was amazing. James Varner, who's the head of Rain Shadow Running, made us hot dogs, and it was amazing. But I got I left there at 12:30. So, like, I guess it ended up being like five hours, four and a half hours before you got there. Yeah, uh, I mean, that's slow, right? 18 hours or 19 and a half hours for 50 miles, it's pretty slow. But I guess when you think that I I mean, spoilers, I finished in 3920, so it's roughly even splitting, a little a little less, a little positive split, but not very much. Yeah, so um, so that's pretty good looking back. The night was slow and grindy. I took a dirt nap at some point. We were down in this Lewis River section that was just huge trees, and it was really beautiful, but um yeah, the night got to me. I was a little tired, but only took one dirt nap. And then yeah, we climbed back up. I saw my wife in mile 72, and I told her I was like, I kind of wish this race was over. Yeah. Like, like I like I have 28 more miles, but I don't know. At this point, I was just like resigned to it. Like I knew I had to finish. I have this like I just I just had to do it, like it was inevitable. It didn't matter how long it took. Um, so it did that it was hot the second day. It was supposed to be it was very direct sunlight the second day, even though it was cooler and less humid, it was direct sunlight. So uh we went from like Astro summer to Colorado summer on the second day.

SPEAKER_01: 1:22:23

Way more exposed, huh?

SPEAKER_00: 1:22:24

Yeah, more exposed. I ended up taking a second dirt nap around 11 a.m. And it was amazing. I set my set my watch or my my my timer for 10 minutes, and I woke up uh five minutes later and I was like, I slept. I actually slept. I was so excited. I was like, oh my god, I actually fell asleep. And I was like, that was amazing. And I got up and I started running, it was great. Um, I saw so many people in the mid-pack coming. Like we had all these out and backs to these aid stations, and I was just doing I was doing a little better than most people. So I was just helping encourage everyone to get to the finish. And oh, but I made the worst mistake at the very end. So the last nine miles are downhill on the road, so you don't go up to Tongue Mountain, you don't do that the trail section, and I was convinced this was gonna be so easy, and I'm running with like from the whole last 12 miles or downhill. So you have like three miles of downhill, then you hit the road, and that road is all downhill to the finish, and there's an aid station at that road, and I went down, and the photographer was behind me, and and he was like video, I was in one of his little reels, and I was running. We were in, I was enjoying, I love technical downhill, and this was like loose rocks, so you know, terrible trail, but fun to run. And I and I I hit the aid station where the road starts, and I was just like, I don't need that, I don't need that aid station, I'm good. Like the finish is right there. It was uh and I I get like a half and I'm I see my wife who she's supposed to pace me, and like she's like, I'm like, hey wife, like come on, and and she starts running, and I just keep going, and I'm like, and like 29 in out, bye. And uh, and it was a half mile later, I was like, holy shit, I still have eight miles to go, my feet hurt so much, and I have no water. What am I doing? That's a pretty bad mistake. I was on a I was on an emotional high. I was I was like round riding cloud nine, and then I just crashed down. And I felt it it was like it was like close to being bad because I I felt like I would like I don't know, I was on the cusp of like having an emotional breakdown, like realizing the mistake I made. Because I have had those before at Tian away, like I was four miles from the finish, and I was like sitting down crying, thinking I would never finish, which seems ridiculous, right? After you traveled 96 miles. Totally. So I I have broken down before, so I was like, I had to steady myself. So I started doing the douchebag thing of playing music out loud and singing to it just to like like calm my brain down. Uh and yeah, somehow I I got through the those last few miles, and you know, I my wife was there, she helped me calm down, she gave me a bottle, which is like that's like reverse muling, right? When when your pacer gives you something to carry, right? It's not muling because I carried her bottle because I was I didn't have any water because I didn't stop at the fucking aid station, which is such a dumb mistake. It's the biggest uh biggest mistake of the race for sure. Um I don't I don't know, there's not too much to talk about on the whole second half because the whole thing was just grind. Yeah, okay, those those those dirt bikers came to dirt bikers, yeah. They they weren't out on Friday, but they were out on Saturday, and I got dusted like 30, 40 times, and I'm just an obstacle to them. They would come up and I you just hear them coming, like they're big engines. You'd have to get out of the way, and they'd ride by. The nicest thing they would do is say, Hey, uh two behind.

SPEAKER_01: 1:26:11

Two behind, yeah. Two behind.

SPEAKER_00: 1:26:12

I'm like, fuck you, you just dusted me with all this goddamn like loose dirt and exhaust, and now I have to wait for your friends who are like kind not exactly behind you, and so I can't really move efficiently because we're in these deep, like three foot ruts that like my 80 mile body can't doesn't really effectively move out of very well. The whole the whole trail, those trails are hard to move on.

SPEAKER_01: 1:26:37

Yeah, yeah. All even the like shit, even that, like we didn't mention it, but that one downhill out to the to the second aid station before you do the fire road down to the dark divide wilderness, that the dark meadow uh aid station, like it's the grade where you're like, Oh, we're gonna cruise, but then you're running in a two-foot rut. So, like I remember looking and being like, Yeah, we're doing 14, we're we were doing like 15-minute miles downhill, and I was like, We cruising. And if you took the wrong step, the rut just basically like ejected you into the bushes, and then you'd have to get back up on the trail.

SPEAKER_00: 1:27:08

It felt like running on a on a on a tight beam, right? Yeah, like because if you you couldn't steady yourself without like ripping an ankle, so you just had to like really like pipeline your legs. I think maybe somebody who is skinnier or had better balance muscles might have had an easier time, but uh me and my thick guys we uh I was falling over most of the time.

SPEAKER_01: 1:27:33

I was I was okay with them, but that was early. You know, I could only imagine what it'd be like. And I know Kevin, like, we should talk, I want to talk about Kevin for a second because like when I was talking to him, he's like, Oh yeah, Ultra Sign Up has me finishing in 48 hours. I'm like, isn't that the cutoff? He's like, Yeah, this guy finished in like he's such a he was an hour behind me, he's so strong. He's like 67 years old. Seven years old. Yeah, he is the biggest sandbagger in ultra running I know. He is so strong, and the guy's Aladdin is so he's he's like my idol man. I love Kevin. And uh he said he had at least 20 dirt bike encounters, and he's just like, and to your point, like they're dusting you because they can't slow down, like in those trails, they can't slow down or else they're gonna fall over. So, like they just have to kind of keep going, you know what I mean? It sucks for the runners, but yeah, he's like, dude, I basically because some of these are like on the edge of cliffs, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:28:30

So I I was pretty surprised at some of the difficulty of s of these trails for mountain bikers or yeah, dirt bikers, dirt bikers, mountain bikers, and then like Kevin's he's done he's done the LA freeway. He he went down and did um UTCT a couple years ago. The dude is a crusher.

SPEAKER_01: 1:28:48

Yeah, so I was really excited to get to meet him in person, uh, hang out, and like like I said, dude, I just wish I had a you know, I personally wish I had a better day, but it was nice to be able to hang out. I hung out all day, just like watched, you know, watched the watch the f watch everyone finish, just hung out with Sean and his wife, and uh just kind of hung out, watched you guys finish, and you know, it was really cool.

SPEAKER_00: 1:29:11

And then like you were so kind to me at the finish. You brought me a lemonade and a beer. I was like, I couldn't ask for better service. This is so nice.

SPEAKER_01: 1:29:21

You had told me because I was like telling you how the stuff I had in the cooler, and you're like, lemonade? I love me a good lemonade. And so I like remembered. I was like, Oh, I'm gonna go get when I go get John a beer, I'll make sure I'll bring him a lemonade because I know how much he loves lemonade, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 1:29:34

I remember when you asked me if I had the credentials to judge hazy IPA.

SPEAKER_01: 1:29:38

Yeah. And then we had a whole conversation about it. I was like, cuz and then like, which is great because I love a good hazy.

SPEAKER_00: 1:29:44

So skeptical, skeptical that I knew what I was talking about when it comes to the city.

SPEAKER_01: 1:29:48

It was more of a question of like, I just wanted to make sure that because like some people some people like to hate on a good hazy, and I was like, So do you actually what do you you know? I was kind of like, tell me, you know, and then you were like. Dude, you have no idea. And then you went on. I was like, okay, cool. Like you, I got it. You, you, you, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 1:30:06

You're in good company.

SPEAKER_01: 1:30:07

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 1:30:07

So it's uh it's one of these mistakes, right? It's discovered by mistake. Like for years, for hundreds, thousands of years, people have been making beer, and nobody knew you could put hops in during primary fermentation to make it uh taste super juicy. Like nobody knew this until somebody discovered it in Vermont like 15 years ago. Genuinely fascinating that an entirely new style of beer was discovered in our lifetime.

SPEAKER_01: 1:30:38

So I I rest my case, like point made, I rest my case. I will never doubt John's credentials on Hazy's ever again.

SPEAKER_00: 1:30:47

Uh but yeah, like you know, Colorado showed up to this race in a major way because the hundred y'all had like three you had three podiums between the hundredk and the oh I don't know who podiumed on the hundred by well the Eric Eric Eric Lee who lives in Boulder, he came out for the hundred K. Yep, and he had and he was there with his with one of his friends, Abby, uh who also podiumed, and then I think she got first. I can't remember. And then Stephanie, Stephanie, Dave's friend.

SPEAKER_01: 1:31:24

Yeah, she also podiumed. Yeah, and that's 100k, and then all four, all five, well, four, then there was that kid Mike from San Diego, who was friends with you guys too. He finished the Hundred Miler, and then the four guys from the three guys from Colorado, the the three-we finished an hour like apart. Yeah, y'all finished all an hour apart. The other Dave Fox didn't finish, but it was that's okay. Oh no, Dave Fox finished.

SPEAKER_00: 1:31:50

Dave Schible.

SPEAKER_01: 1:31:51

Dave Scheibel didn't.

SPEAKER_00: 1:31:52

That's right. But he he's from Washington and he quits races. That's Dave Scheibel's thing. He either he either has his day or he doesn't. Like Dave's not a guy that like he doesn't write giant DNF on his bib and stick it on his wall like you do, because I can see that behind your like Dave's just like, ah, it wasn't my day. Like, like he he's DNF'd a bunch of races. That's just Dave's way.

SPEAKER_01: 1:32:14

But I love it. So I remember some guy. Well, we're we're gonna wind this down here in a second. This guy finished the race and he finished really strong. And then he was I was in the I was in the finish, like in the in the cabana, like the what is it, what is it called? Uh the cabana, it's not a cabana, but there's a shelter there, like where the race is right. Yeah, I think a shelter between the city. And like uh we're like we're in there, and this guy is talking about this dude, Dave, that he ran with and how strong he was. And I was like, Oh, I just latched on to this guy, he was climbing so strong. It was like we had a great blah blah blah, and like, and I was like, Where did where he had to have finished really good? Where did he finish? I was like, Oh, he dropped it mile 26. He's like, There's no way he dropped it mile 26, he was running so good, and like you know, he Dave helped me out at the aid station, he was hanging out at the aid station when we went through, he helped me out, we had a conversation, it was like really cool, but like you could just tell he was like, I had fun, I got to see some really cool views, and you know what? I just wasn't feeling that 26 miles without aid, and I was ready to be done. And he also like he was in your he was just traveling in Europe, had just got off a plane and like drove and like drove over after after traveling for like 36 hours or something like that.

SPEAKER_00: 1:33:22

So, like, whatever Dave's probably already run another hundred, so right saving himself for something else. But I thought it was right, Colorado showed up. Like, we came out there in force 300k runners, 300 mile runners, um for a race that started. I mean, honestly, we were 10% of the entire race.

SPEAKER_01: 1:33:43

Yeah, 100%. And the 300k runners hit the podium and the 300 milers all got got the got got the finish.

SPEAKER_00: 1:33:51

Got our buckles. Where's my buckles?

SPEAKER_01: 1:33:52

Yeah, you got your buckles. I remember we were having that conversation because you were like, you were like, uh, I was like, I don't think there's a buckle, and you're like, I'm not running. You you said that. You said I did say that. I was like, I don't think there's a buckle.

SPEAKER_00: 1:34:04

I saw I saw finisher hoodies. There must all be a buckle.

SPEAKER_01: 1:34:06

I was like, you're like, you're like, there better be a freaking buckle, dude. This race is hard. There better be a buckle. I'm like, I like it. You would think, yeah, you would think. I'm a fan. I have the shelf back here, the new shelf, the new shelf back here.

SPEAKER_00: 1:34:18

So oh, that's very nice. I I have a shelf, but it's a much more of a mess.

SPEAKER_01: 1:34:24

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00: 1:34:25

So I didn't this way. Did you did you write DNF on it to remind yourself? I got mine without DNF written on it. Yeah, well, they let me keep my bib.

SPEAKER_01: 1:34:34

Like when I got back, Sam, the guy that was running the the tracking. Um I was like, hey, you don't mind if I keep this? He's like, I'm I'm fine with you. You should take it off. Because I when I got back, the first fit finisher finished, right? I watched him finish. And then I accidentally walked through the timing mat. So my name was second place for like for five minutes. My name was second place for the 100 miler. And I'm like, I should take a picture of this. This will never happen again.

SPEAKER_00: 1:34:56

As somebody who just deployed a timing system at a race, I am yeah, I can understand why that would be a problem.

SPEAKER_01: 1:35:03

Yeah. So he fixed obviously he fixed it, but but yeah, so like I had the bib, I was pulling it out the other day, and I had a Sharpie right here in the office, and I looked at it, I was like, you know what? We're gonna hang this where I can see it every day, and I'm gonna write a big DNF on it so I can get a reminder that I gotta go back to I gotta go back.

SPEAKER_00: 1:35:20

You gotta forgive yourself, me. And you don't have to do it today, you don't have to do it now, but over time.

SPEAKER_01: 1:35:25

I've forgiven myself, yeah, but I need a reminder. Yeah, well, like failure. I live my life through the motto that like growth comes from failure, and you fail forward in life. And I've done that my entire life. This just happens to be the first time that I've like this is the first time that I've had what I would consider true failure in ultra running. And it's just like, you know, I've had I mean, dude, I'm not a fast hunt. My my hundred mile PR is 33 hours. Like, I am not, I don't run easy hundreds, but like I've I have never had a good hundred mile race. I've always had to dig myself out of something, you know, and like that's everyone says that. Like there's always a low point, but like like that's just like this just kind of how to, you know, if you're gonna shuffle the deck that as many times as we're gonna do it, every once in a while you're gonna, you know, you're gonna pull the joker, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 1:36:19

So you know, I I kind of had a leg up because two weeks before Dark Divide, I ran Telluride Mountain Run and I DNF'd the 24 mile race. I was time cut. It's my first time I was time cut in a non-bushwhacking race, like a regular ultra. I had never been time cut before in a regular ultra, and I I my stomach fell apart at altitude, I bonked like crazy, the A station was out of water. It's a whole mess. I'm not gonna get into it. It sounds like we just talked about we just we just talked about that 45 minutes ago.

SPEAKER_01: 1:36:53

Right?

SPEAKER_00: 1:36:53

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01: 1:36:54

Same thing.

SPEAKER_00: 1:36:54

Sounds like a similar experience, yeah. Exactly. Like everything just fell apart, and then I just didn't make the cutoff. And I and I walked out of that with like, okay, what do I need to do differently? It's like, okay, better, you know, better, make sure my stomach's good the week before, bring a lot more toms, have extra salt, right? And like you can take these kind of lessons forward. Do you think you've learned any lessons you're gonna bring forward, or have you not thought through that yet?

SPEAKER_01: 1:37:18

Well, no, I mean, like, I've already thought about like what is what is Dark Divide 2026 gonna look like for Troy Meadows, right? I'm like, I don't know if I'm gonna make it to the race, but I'm already thinking like, what is it that's gonna be different that's gonna allow me to make it through that wilderness section? Because like, to your point, it is the crux. And like, if you can get through that wilderness section and you're not, I mean, no one's gonna be great, but if you're good, if you're okay, then it's like cool, you can you can just continue on the way back and you go eight to eight on the way back, you know? And you know, for me, it's just more about like you know, mindset needs to be a little bit different going in. I need to have a much better relationship in general with my life in order to like show up and be my best self, right?

SPEAKER_00: 1:38:03

I feel like you have space to be a runner.

SPEAKER_01: 1:38:10

Yeah, and then on top of it, like I kind of mentioned some of the things where I made serious mistakes, and so like having that plan B from a nutrition standpoint, that's not just like I because like usually it's like you can roll plan A for the first 50, 60 miles, and then you figure it out in the back half and you just go aid station to aid station. But like when you have a 26 mile stretch where you have to be self-sufficient, plan B better be solid.

SPEAKER_00: 1:38:35

And I didn't have yeah, and if and if if all your plans fail in that section, you're done. Like, that's just how like there's no recovery without an aid station. You're just done.

SPEAKER_01: 1:38:46

And then and like as far as learning's go, I mean yeah, and as far as like just in general with the DNF, it's like it's gotta happen. Like I posted about I posted like one of those little Yeah, like I I just posted people that don't DNF.

SPEAKER_00: 1:39:01

I don't I don't I don't think they're trustworthy. They haven't experienced this failure in their life.

SPEAKER_01: 1:39:07

Dude, 100%. Um No, I had a good buddy of mine when I, you know, like the little blurb that you could put over your name on Instagram or whatever, that thing that you can put out now, the little message or whatever. Yeah, there's like a thing now. Yeah, anyway. I put up like first DNF, and my buddy was like, it doesn't mean shit, bro. You you're you're good, you know. Like basically, like happens to everybody, doesn't mean shit, move on. And I'm like, thanks, dude. You know, kind of needed. It's like it's Stern, straight to the point. Uh he's Irish, so like you know, they're very like they're they're juvial, but they're very like, you know, the the the people over there on that aisle, like their sense of humor is very different than ours, you know what I mean? So um, but but yeah, it was cool. It was cool to hear from him because it's doesn't make you any less of a runner to DNF. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00: 1:39:50

In fact, it doesn't mean shit moving more. Yeah. One of my bet one of my most proudest moments was DNFing the Barclay Marathons. You know? We're gonna talk about the stream of that.

SPEAKER_01: 1:40:02

I'm so glad you mentioned this. So, like, for the audience, I hope you enjoyed John because we're gonna have him back in a couple weeks. Because I wanted to I need to know more about John. I think the audience needs to know more about John. But this is the one thing that like I would I love to talk about is like I know there's plenty, there's not plenty, there's many mid-backers who have tried to run Barkley, but you made it an obsession. It was a muse for you for a long for a while. And I I want to un I want to just unpack that with you because we talked about a little bit on the trail. Um, but you know, I I also will say I'll save that for a follow-up episode.

SPEAKER_00: 1:40:36

We'll save that for the follow-up episode.

SPEAKER_01: 1:40:38

I could talk endlessly about Barkley. But I think the crazy, and I was gonna go back to this, like you were awesome to run with because like you knew, like, you actually knew the course. I was like, I'm gonna show up and I'm gonna have the GPX file and I'm gonna have the Gaia thing, and I work I'm gonna follow course markings. Like, you actually knew the course. You're like, hey, we're gonna go up on this now, hey, we're gonna go down this now. Hey, it's gonna go. And I'm like, dude, I'm running with the right man, I'm running with the right guy here because like you actually know it. And then we were talking about Barkley, you were like, I actually can still remember and envision every single turn. I'm like, okay, like John's just a different I have a I have a memory for navigation.

SPEAKER_00: 1:41:17

Like I can remember, like I may not remember like the exact map, like photography. Like, I don't have like a photographic memory, but I know, like, oh, we you know, we climb this and it's going to take this long, and it's gonna have this character to it, and then we're gonna go through this. And I remember that sort of section. And if there are navigation hints I have to remember, I remember those well. So like I just love I have an ADHD brain, it never shuts off. So I I'm always thinking about where am I going next? Always. Every I never not know where I am.

SPEAKER_01: 1:41:48

Well, well, I picked up on because I was I was definitely on the F around and find out Dark Divide journey, and you were and you and you were like you would Pete Heads hex out there. So um, but yeah, man, I appreciate you carving out the time today. And um, I felt like um you definitely like this conversation unpacking it, but also like some of the questions you asked allowed me to really like think about it, and in thinking about it, it makes me feel a lot better about the fact that it happened, you know. So I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00: 1:42:18

I mean, when you when we ex when you were walking through it moment by moment, you know, it sounds like a cascade of failures that happened at the wrong time.

SPEAKER_01: 1:42:27

Oh, it 100% was.

SPEAKER_00: 1:42:30

And I it's happened to me. I mean, we can talk about that. I talked about, you know, like falling apart. Uh I've yeah, quitting and DNFing is just something you gotta go through. The more you do this, you'll have those experiences.

SPEAKER_01: 1:42:44

I know, yeah. It's nice to have it now. I will say, I remember what you said to me when you were climbing up and I was sitting down to let you pass me on the way down to the A station.

SPEAKER_00: 1:42:52

Last time we saw each other.

SPEAKER_01: 1:42:53

Yeah, last time you were like, you dying. I'm like, I'm dead, bro. That's exactly that's exactly you're like, you dying, dude? And I'm like, I'm like, I am dead, bro. And that was it. And I like I said, I remember like Kevin.

SPEAKER_00: 1:43:04

Because I expected you to be the first person behind me. Sure. And I saw like seven people before I saw you. Absolutely. Where's Troy? He was just not. He was right behind me last time I saw him.

SPEAKER_01: 1:43:16

Yeah, and Kevin, I remember when I saw Kevin, he's like, How you and he's he's just so you know, he's Kevin's so much nicer than me. He's South African, so he's got that perfect accent. He's like, Bro, you know, how you doing, Brad? I'm like, I am struggling. He's like, Oh, I'm so sorry to hear that. Blah, blah. It's okay, you'll be fine. I'm slow, you'll catch me. I'm like, oh man, you're such a like you're the biggest sandbagger I know. He's so kind, but he's like crusher, dude. So anyway, John man, I so I value getting to have my experience with the High Lonesome crew. I really appreciate the miles that we shared together. Um, hopefully we'll get to do another like I would like to come to Colorado and run soon. Yeah, maybe maybe next year. So I might pick some races and maybe we can connect again. But definitely gonna have to have you come on the pod and do an episode just on John. And uh I'm excited to do that. And uh, do you have any last words for the audience before uh before we sign off?

SPEAKER_00: 1:44:11

I just want to say thank you to the listeners who make this possible. Like, I don't get to talk about myself enough in normal life, and so being able to come on this podcast and just talk about uh talk about your experience, talk about we got to have what uh what is it, your boy Scott Durick makes fun of, like the super long DNF report. We got to do that, and I I enjoyed it. I enjoyed going through it. I hope you, the listeners, loved it. And uh, yeah, we'll see we'll see them next time.

SPEAKER_01: 1:44:37

Yeah, we'll see you next time.

SPEAKER_00: 1:44:40

I do, I do an outro, yeah. I don't do an outro. People tell me I should, but I don't know. They're fun. Well, they're because it that's where you put in the ads, right?

SPEAKER_01: 1:44:48

Yeah, like I recap, I tell people to come. I mean, they're gonna hear it again, but I tell people to come back to like sign up for the newsletter, what you think about the conversation, slide into my DMs on Instagram, tell me what you thought. Feedback, gets give me some feedback, and then I like I engage. I give sh I give shine to to to the to the partners, and then I say, Thank you, thank you, thank you everyone so much for your support. It really means the world to me. And uh, we'll see you next time on the mid-packer pod.

SPEAKER_00: 1:45:14

That's that's a really great podcast voice. I love your podcast voice. Uh well, listeners, if you enjoyed this episode, I want you to tell Troy specifically you loved having John on. And uh yeah, I appreciate being here. Thank you so much, Troy, for uh bringing me on to interview half interview you. It was it was fun.

SPEAKER_01: 1:45:30

Thanks, brother. We'll have to do it again sometime. Hopefully, hopefully, not my next ENF.

SPEAKER_00: 1:45:39

Uh, definitely not. Don't make it a habit of it.

SPEAKER_01: 1:45:42

Yeah, we won't.

SPEAKER_02: 1:45:43

That's where you gotta worry about it.