Running with Problems
A podcast about the lives of runners and the problems we face.
Running with Problems
Chasing Limits With Epic Bill Bradley
Join us as we discuss the life and adventures of Epic Bill Bradley, an incredible story of perseverance and pushing ones limits. Epic Bill has done some of the hardest adventures on this planet, including a triple Ironman, quad Badwater, and so much more. We only scratch the surface of Bill's stories. Hope you enjoy!
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Start with a slow jog through Boulder—flat miles, farm-stand honey, and training chatter—then pivot into a full-on masterclass in grit with Epic Bill Bradley. Bill built a $10M video business, went bankrupt, lost his identity, woke up at 3 a.m. with poison oak, and ran a 50 miler to feel human again. That decision launches a story that fuses ultrarunning, cold-water swimming, and entrepreneurship into one relentless throughline: choose hard things on purpose.
We go deep on Badwater’s furnace—real heat management, tarmac radiation, crew strategy, and the dangers of overhydration. Then we flip to Arrowhead’s brutal cold: negative thirty-five nights, frozen hands in “California gloves,” empty checkpoints in the dark, and the stubborn pride of showing up again and again. Bill’s attempts stack into a philosophy: if it can’t kill you, it’ll bore me. Under the bravado lives a practical ethic—boredom breeds depression, challenge restores meaning.
Bill draws sharp parallels between building companies and running ultras: uncertain timelines, lonely stretches, and the discipline to keep moving when the finish line disappears. His English Channel quests read like a survival manual—boat pilots, tide windows, seasickness, and the harsh moment a “four miles to go” sign becomes “seven” after a storm pushes him off the point. We unpack gear evolution, blister triage, trench foot swelling, and how twenty minutes of motion can make pain manageable. The Grand Canyon septuple crossing, done only because someone else did six, underscores a simple loop: set the goal, stretch it, learn, repeat.
What’s next for Bill? A six-minute mile after 25 years, an eye on 200 milers, a Santa Barbara Channel swim, and another shot at the English Channel with smarter tactics. It’s raw, funny, and deeply useful—whether you’re chasing a PR, a start-up milestone, or the courage to take a dream off the shelf. If you’re ready to rethink your limits, press play, then share the hardest thing you’re willing to attempt this year. And if the conversation moves you, subscribe, leave a review, and pass it to a friend who needs a push.
Thanks for listening to Running With Problems. Follow us on Instagram @runningwithproblems. DM us there with questions in text or audio messages! Or email us at podcast@runningwithproblems.run.
Hosted by Jon Eisen (@mildly_athletic) and Miranda Williamson (@peaksandjustice). Edited by Jon Eisen. Theme music by Matt Beer.
Hello and welcome to Running with Problems. My name is John Eisen.
SPEAKER_00:And I'm Miranda Williamson.
SPEAKER_03:Running with Problems is a podcast about runners, their lives, and the problems they inevitably face. Today on the podcast, we have Epic Bill Bradley. Epic Bill is a great story, and we'll tell you all about him. But before we get to that, Miranda, how are you doing?
SPEAKER_00:I am doing great. I ran two back-to-back flat half marathons this weekend.
SPEAKER_03:One of them with me.
SPEAKER_00:One of them with you. That was a lot of fun. One of our old running routes that we haven't done in a couple years.
SPEAKER_03:I think we kind of dated on that running route.
SPEAKER_00:We did.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, training for what was it, like a three-quarter marathon?
SPEAKER_00:That's right.
SPEAKER_03:Three-quarter marathon.
SPEAKER_00:That was the first race we've ever we ever ran together. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. It was a few months after we met. That was pretty fun. Yeah, we ran on the the roads up in North Boulder, saw the Boulder Track Club. I think, I think I spotted Megan Roach out there. So, like all the all the flatter, faster runners out there.
SPEAKER_00:For our non-boulder people, this is a really cute area of Boulder. There aren't many flat areas. This is flat, so it's good if that's what you're looking for. It's also good if there's a lot of snow on the ground to go out there. And it's super cute because there's all these little farm stands. And not like um uh commercial farm stands, but little people have bees in their backyard and you can literally from the road see the beehives, and then they have little um honey being sold right in front of their house. And same with eggs and pumpkins and all sorts of things.
SPEAKER_03:It's one of my favorite things about living in Boulder is how close you are to local agriculture. Like you like we drove, like you can drive just, I don't know, uh a few minutes from our house, but we were going to the other side of town, so it was 20 minutes from our house, and you're just at farm stands for people from people who just own some land. And uh, you know, whether they're raising sheep or or growing crops or uh honey bees, yeah, and they just sell it uh on the honor system outside their house. It's just a little venmo.
SPEAKER_00:There's like Venmo me, or there's a little jar for you to put the cash in. It's so cute. It's very cute. I love it. So we got some honey after our run.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah. We were running by at our fast pace of 10 minute miles, which is that's where my body's at right now. We're 10 minute miles feels like a strong pace. Uh you know.
SPEAKER_00:To be fair, it is a strong pace. We're at altitude. It's not the it's not exactly flat.
SPEAKER_03:We're you know, I'd still like to get that down under 10, though. I'm working on it. I've been doing a lot of speed work lately. Uh, been getting in the sauna, trying to kick up the PT. So yeah, the goal for this training cycle, and I have started training for Coca-Dona, is to just improve my running economy overall, get a little faster. I'm gonna run the was it Birds of a Feather trail shot uh down in Raleigh, uh, or I guess it's Chapel Hill uh for over Thanksgiving. So I'm pretty excited about that trail 5K. Yeah. So I gotta train up for that. That that is if I can make it there, who knows whether the uh flights in the US will work on Thanksgiving.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, hopefully, yeah. It's not looking good. Not outlook not good. Not good. Um I have a third place title I'm not defending this year.
SPEAKER_03:I mean two years in a row. You take a third place in your age group. Yes. And you're you're abandoning your podium. I think I'll live. Oh well, we'll miss you. Uh but yeah, so training's going well, and I'm looking forward to getting faster. So let's talk about Bill.
SPEAKER_00:Epic Bill Bradley. I'm Bill Bradley. You tell that joke early in the the conversation, so we can uh we can not leave our listeners in suspense. Um, yeah, so Bill is the second person who has reached out to us to do an interview. His PR team reached out to us.
SPEAKER_03:He has a PR team.
SPEAKER_00:They're so incredible. I've been communicating with them and I love them. And they reached out to us, and I read about Bill and was like, yes, this will resonate with our listeners. And let me tell you why it will resonate with running with problem listeners.
SPEAKER_03:Tell us why.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. So Bill has done some incredible things like run back-to-back badwaters.
SPEAKER_03:He ran quad quad badwater.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so he's run bad water four times in a row. So because running it once wasn't enough. It wasn't hard enough.
SPEAKER_03:It seems like every time Bill accomplishes something, he decides I've got to ratchet up the difficulty. Exactly. So he did a bad water and he's like, that wasn't enough. Yeah. I was like, I gotta do a double bad water, and that wasn't enough. And gotta do a quad badwater.
SPEAKER_00:He wanted to be the first person to run the Grand Canyon six times.
SPEAKER_03:Five times or six times. But then he told too many people about it, and then somebody went out and ran it six times. So he had to run it seven times.
SPEAKER_00:And what I love about his story is not that he did these incredible things, which they are incredible, but he did them in a time where his gear wasn't dialed in like people have it dialed in now. So he's like doing this with feet covered in 11 blisters. And uh he attempted arrowhead with like gloves that were completely inadequate and hands that were completely immobilized from the cold. So he's doing these things without understanding the full extent of the gear that you need. He's just like, I'm gonna go do these hard things. And because he's doing these hard things, and as John said, upping it, he fails a lot.
SPEAKER_03:But that failure, like he's motivated by it. Yeah, he seems to be seeking those limits. And that is all he's interested in doing is things on the edge of his ability.
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_03:And accomplishing them eventually. Behind him in the interview, he had a wall of photos and handwritten uh phrases.
SPEAKER_00:Mantras for all of his epic shit.
SPEAKER_03:And we we talked about it before the interview with him, and he turned the camera and it that wall just goes. What did he call it? His uh his goal wall.
SPEAKER_00:Goal wall, yeah. Something like that. Something like that.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. So like that is his like that's how he puts up the what he wants to do, and he lives his life like seemingly every day trying to accomplish these things. It's very, I don't know, uh, idyllic, I guess, in this idea of like adventurer and uh pushing the limits. Very cool to see.
SPEAKER_00:I love it. And we don't even talk about his age. Um he seems kind of ageless when you talk to him.
SPEAKER_03:It's just not it's not something he considers.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Um, but he's definitely um on the older side of athletes like that we run with, which we run with some incredible older athletes.
SPEAKER_03:He would fit in in boulder.
SPEAKER_00:He would fit in really well with our group in uh Boulder Trail Runners for sure. Which I just think is so amazing. It gives me as an athlete someone to look forward to becoming.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. If I could be that old and still running incredible things, uh, that would be living my life well.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:I think our conversation pairs well with his movie, which is called Epic Bill. And it's available. We rented it for a few dollars on Apple, Apple movie thing, but uh, I'm sure it's available in other places as well. So I thought that we watched the movie before we talked to Bill, and I thought that the movie that talking to him and the movie showed different sides of him.
SPEAKER_00:It definitely did. Um, and I think I recommend doing doing that. Which what which order would you recommend doing?
SPEAKER_03:Um obviously we did the movie and then talk. The listeners are already listening to us, so finish this episode. And then go watch the movie. That listen in, get the stats in, right? Yeah, and then go watch the movie. I don't think you need to watch the movie before listening to the MPM. Definitely not. Uh so the context sort of pairs, but uh it was enjoyable. It was a good running movie about Bill and his adventures, and it showed a lot of it had some feed picks in there. You guys want to see some feed picks?
SPEAKER_00:All of the running adventure movies have feet picks. You cannot escape it for some reason.
SPEAKER_03:That I that's the mark of a good running movie, is how many feet picks are in it. That's why your favorite has a ton of feet picks.
SPEAKER_00:It really does. I could skip that section of it. In fact, I kind of cover my eyes.
SPEAKER_03:Well, I think that I think that's about it. If you guys have feedback for us, send it in to running podcast at runningwithproblems.run. That's dot run, not dot com. And uh DM us on Instagram at running with problems. And we'll see you next time. Without further ado, here is Epic Bill Bradley.
SPEAKER_00:Enjoy. Hello, Bill. Welcome to the podcast.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, thank you guys. Woo woo. Running with problems podcast power. I've been dying to say that. Woo!
SPEAKER_04:So we're ready to hear about all your problems.
SPEAKER_03:I got a few. Go ahead. What were you saying? Oh, I was just saying that's got to be our new theme song. Yeah. Just clip it. We just go, I bet we can mix it in and go woo woo.
unknown:Pretty good. Pretty good.
SPEAKER_00:Um, so John has been showing me videos of uh Bill Braski. Apparently, there are some videos making fun of a Bill Brasky.
SPEAKER_03:Have you have you seen it?
SPEAKER_01:I don't know, that's not me.
SPEAKER_03:It's an SNL, so it's a Saturday night live skit where four guys from the Midwest sit around telling stories about somebody named Bill Brasky.
SPEAKER_00:And they always say it like, Bill Brasky, do you know Bill Brasky? So I've been walking around. We're gonna talk to Bill Bradley. No epic Bill Bradley.
SPEAKER_03:Anyway, it's a good skit. Uh and I love it. As soon as she said your name, you know, we got to your email. You got Bill Brasky. It just came to mind. And he's done some epic shit.
SPEAKER_00:So you are our second ever person to reach out to us and us to say yes to having a podcast episode with.
SPEAKER_01:Wow, thank you. We love it.
SPEAKER_00:We've had other folks reach out and we've declined. So we're excited to have your team reach out to us and to be chatting with you today.
SPEAKER_01:Well, we think you're special, that's for sure. Running with problems podcast power again. Woo woo! And Bill, where are you from? I'm up in Northern California. I live in Court of Madera right now. I'm right near Mount Tam. Oh, yeah. Beautiful area.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, we climbed Mount Tam a couple of years ago, right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. Just great views, unbelievable.
SPEAKER_03:I love, I think Marin is one of the best areas to run in in this country. It is it is a gem.
SPEAKER_01:It is a gem. That mountain is something else, man. And you got you got the uh Stinson Beach right off the backside, you know, if you want to run in the sand.
SPEAKER_00:And you're a triathlete, right?
SPEAKER_01:You've done I've done a lot of triathlons, I haven't done one in a little while, but yeah, I have I think I have nine ironmans under my belt and a triple iron man.
SPEAKER_00:Wow. So is a triple Iron Man, is that like an ultra Iron Man?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it was 7.2 mile swim, 336 mile bike, and a 78 mile run.
SPEAKER_03:Do you do that consecutively, like no brakes, or is it one of these where like every day you do part of it?
SPEAKER_01:No, it was it was continuous. So we did, yeah, yeah, it was and you swam the whole, you know, um 7.2? Yeah, 7.2 miles in a lake back and forth, and then the bike, and and and then it was like there was like 12 of us doing it right or something, you know, or or maybe it was 15. Oh, John's into those obscure. I know, and I go like, and it was called the world championships, right? This is like 10 years ago, and I go, like, I go, yeah, I was I was in the world championships, I got 10th. They go, well, how many people are in it? I go, well, 12, you ass. But they're all good.
SPEAKER_03:You're not supposed to ask that part.
SPEAKER_01:You're not supposed to ask that question.
SPEAKER_00:And what about um your family? Are your family all from Northern California too? Uh my kids are around now.
SPEAKER_01:They're, you know, uh Southern Cal, uh Sacramento, and down in Texas. My son's down in Texas. But my my yeah, my core family's in Northern California. I guess whatever you would call that, your dad and all that stuff. Core. I don't want to get too fancy with you guys.
SPEAKER_03:The canonic, I don't know, the the idyllic American family.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, whatever.
SPEAKER_03:So we just watched your movie, Epic Bill, a couple days ago. It's good, it was very enjoyable. Made me want to run Arrowhead Arrowhead, which I I don't think I've ever had that feeling before. So there you go. Yeah, one.
SPEAKER_00:And I'm uh I want to do bad water. So we've got you know, they're hot and the cold.
SPEAKER_03:Opposites attract, I guess.
SPEAKER_01:Uh exactly, man. And then you live where it's 70.
SPEAKER_03:Exactly. Because you don't you don't want to be in the cold all the time.
SPEAKER_01:Well, bold or cold. You guys are cold there, but not as cold as as International Falls.
SPEAKER_03:So I'd I'd love to introduce you to our to our get to our listeners, uh, and like tell us like what I like what are you about these days? Like what drives you and what are you what are you trying to do in this world with these uh I mean, I don't I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you're doing a ton of incredible uh epic adventures and attempting these uh bucket list items, I would say, right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I think um, you know, well, I went through uh uh I was in the video business and I went through the bankruptcy. You saw that in the in the movie. It was very um yeah, I was really we were really successful in the video business, one of the top independents in the country. And then to go bankrupt there was like so I'd been in it 20 years. I started with credit cards, I fought up from a little dinky store to a$10 million uh, you know, chain, a year chain, and uh that bankruptcy was devastating. And so part of why I do what I do was I was doing the Iron Man's, I was running marathons, you know, triathlon's marathons. And I did, I would, I would, I'd been thinking about doing a 50 miler for a long time, but I was worried I wouldn't finish, you know, your ego, you know, because it's as long as an Iron Man, pretty much, um, you know, roughly, but it's the same muscles get pounded, you know. And uh, so I um yeah, I put it off. I just kept putting it off and putting it off. And then, like when I was ready to file for bankruptcy, and uh my wife left at the same time, you know what I mean. I told her I was gonna have to file for bankruptcy, and and she couldn't handle it, so she left. And uh, and I remember I was talking to a friend of mine, and he said, you know, we were at we were at dinner, and uh he said, you know, the perfect, or no, we were at this was earlier in the day, we're at lunch or something, and he said, the perfect 50 miler, you've been talking about doing a 50 miler for a long time. The perfect one would be tomorrow, you know, and I go like and I'm like, wow, I'd already because I'd now I'm bankrupt. I mean, I'm I'm got I'm back with the family business. I'm I'm doing sales in downtown San Francisco. My confidence was so low that I'm like I'd walk around the city and I would just look at my feet, you know. I couldn't look people in the eyes anymore. And I needed something, and then I thought, and the guy, so so he goes, it's tomorrow. And I kept thinking about it. Then I went to dinner with another friend of mine, and I said, you know, my buddy he told me about a 50 miler tomorrow. And I I feel like it's like I remember when I finished my first Iron Man, it was like even my my first half Iron Man was huge, you know, to finish that. And then I felt I felt proud again, man. I was standing tall, I felt good, you know, and and I wanted that feeling again because I felt so crappy about myself because my whole identity had just crumbled with that video business, you know. We went from like I would talk at a convention, we were so respected, but the industry was in trouble with the Netflix, it was already out and running. And and people would, when I would talk, it would be like dead silent, right? They wanted to hear what I had to say because you know, I was like, we're gonna kick their ass. I was wrong, but I never quit. And uh so it was like a pin drop. And then to go to bankruptcy to where you're you know, like your back, like you know what I mean, all that work you'd put in to build yourself up for 20 years is just gone and you're back down to nothing, you know. I felt like nothing. And so I yeah, I went and I in my other buddy, I go, he goes, Yeah, you should run it, Bill. I go, well, I've only been running like you know, like three, you know, one hour runs a week. I haven't been doing that much since I went bankrupt. So that'd been like four months. And he's he says, You should, you could do it, you could do it. Like he believed in me, you know. And then I go, well, the other thing is I have poison oak on my manly parts right now. Okay, you know, I run up in the like you guys run in the hills, right?
SPEAKER_03:Sometimes no, I've had it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, where you, you know, you you picked the wrong bush to go behind. I don't get it, you get it. So, so I go, Yeah, I have poison oak on my manly parts. He goes, but God, I really want to do it. And he goes, Well, well, you want me to call my dad? We'll see what he says. His dad was he's a retired doctor, right? And so I go, Yeah, let's call your dad. So he gets his dad on the phone, he's like 80 years old. He goes, So, Bill, you want to run a 50-mile run tomorrow with poison oak on your manly parts. He goes, Not a good idea, Bill. Not a good idea.
SPEAKER_02:Not a good idea.
SPEAKER_01:No, I know. So, so I literally go to bed that night thinking I'm not gonna run it. But I woke up at like three in it was like risky business, Tom Cruise. Sometimes you got to say, What the bleep? I just wanted so bad to feel better that I got up and I went down and I ran that 50 miles like my life depended on it, because it did. And you know what? The next couple days later, I went down to the city and I'm doing my little sales in the financial district, and I'm walking around and I'm standing tall and I'm looking people in the eyes again because now I'm an ultra runner.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, but that that opens doors, I'm sure. It doesn't hurt. Love going into going into work after a big ultra. It's like John, how how was your weekend? And it's like, well, I was I spent 39 hours in the woods. Um I don't know. I guess it was good, finished.
SPEAKER_01:Like, yeah, the the no matter what, we're interesting to normal people. We're interesting if nothing else.
SPEAKER_03:Miranda gets more interest, I think. People people just people just think, ah, John's John's too uh he just doesn't out there, yeah. He's too out there. Like, I can't connect with that.
SPEAKER_01:You know, you guys are both great.
SPEAKER_00:Do you experience that, Bill?
SPEAKER_01:Uh I don't know, man. I I I try and hang around people who don't look at me weird. Yeah, yes, it's like absolutely like this answer, this one when they say, Well, better you than me. I always think, like, yeah, I'm glad I'm not you, dude, if that's your answer. That means they're staying in their comfort zone, and that just strangles the life out of you after a period of time.
SPEAKER_03:Words to live by.
SPEAKER_00:So I want to hear about bad water. So you went from running this 50-mile race to then one of the toughest races in the world, perhaps. And I'm I'm uh admittedly um interested in running it myself.
SPEAKER_01:So I want to hear you.
SPEAKER_00:Tell me about what inspired you to run that race.
SPEAKER_01:I think what I did was I did that 50 miler and I felt good, right? Yeah, and then I thought, well, if I could run 100, I'd really feel even better. Okay, yeah. So I actually went up. I I got in the western states because it was two to one odds back then. Oh my god. But I didn't know anything about the heat, like zero, right? Like nothing. And uh it was one of those years where it was 105, and they don't didn't really know anything about the heat either. All they said at the pre-race uh meeting was drink a lot. Well, I'm the wrong guy to say drink a lot to, right? So as it got hot, I had my camel back, and I'm just going. You're sucking it down, and basically I just got hyponutremia up there.
SPEAKER_03:I made it like 65 miles, and I just like drink way too much water without enough nutrients.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I was I was taking some some salt pills and stuff, but not enough for the amount of water I was drinking.
SPEAKER_03:Now, hyponatrimia can be very dangerous. Did you experience any difficulty afterwards, or did you just I was just really, really weak.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, I just I couldn't I got I was just like I got to that checkpoint, the 73 miler, and I just couldn't go on, man. It was just like I was so weak, you know. Um, yeah, don't tell a guy like me to just beep drinking, drink a lot because I got the excessive gene. Clearly.
SPEAKER_02:That you do.
SPEAKER_01:Well, that once ultra runners did. So I went from there and then I did that the headlands hundred, which was two months later, and I learned about my drinking and I finished that one, right?
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:So then I go, okay, now I got a hundred here. And then you know when you hang out, obviously, you guys know you hang out with the ultra, you hear about all these other ultras.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, have you gone down and done this?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the I I think the next the next one I did was I I uh I guess I went to Death Valley next, yeah. Because I had Sisitna right around the same time. So I ran a hundred miles in Alaska right around the same time, and I was thinking, yeah, I think I went to Alaska next, and I didn't make that, and then I went to Death Valley. I didn't make it the first time, I made it the second time. I always count make it. I was six hours after the cutoff. But I finished, yeah. It was like I called the race director. I was at like the 73-mile checkpoint. I go, I go, I'm I I only made it here by like a minute and I need to sleep. I was falling asleep on my feet, you know what I mean? I and it was like a it was a big blizzard, man. It was really soft snow, it was it was terrible conditions. And I got there with like, and I was like redlining, like chugging Red Bulls, so I could make the cutoff. This and and then I I made it, and then this is how much I knew about ultras, right? I make it to this cabin. I go, oh, thank god I made it. I need to sleep for like 20 minutes or a half an hour. They go, oh no, you don't understand, Bill. That cutoff is for leaving, not for coming. I go, you gotta be kidding me. So then I say, Well, let me just sleep for a minute or so because I was nodding off all the way there, you know. And so they let me go back, I close my eyes, and then I like I wake up and I've and I and I I run, I'm going for the door, right? I grab my camel back, I'm going out the door, and I started puking up outside. I started puking up all that red bull-eyed chug, you know, to stay awake. And it was so cold, it was like minus five. The lady's like sweeping it off the the porches like for a freezing. It was frozen out there, so she's just sweeping it off. Oh my god. Yeah, and then I well, I went back in and slept some more, and then I called the lady and go, God, I I I want to finish this. And it was like, she goes, Well, Bill, if you go out there, you're on your own. We're all gonna be at the award ceremony. I'd slept for like a couple, two or three or four hours, right? And she goes, It you we're all gonna be at the award ceremony. She said, So you're on your own. I said, Well, I'm good with that, man. I'll just and I go out there and I remember I'm I'm going down the trail, and and they have these little white pie plates are as their or you know, paper plates as their their you know, trail markers, okay, little arrows. And I'm like, I come up to it, I go, like, I'm wiping it off like my life depends on it. Right, because there's snow pads in front of it this way, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:It's like the scene in Jurassic Park where the sign gets spun around.
SPEAKER_01:Same type of thing. Which way do you want to go? So it's funny. I come in, I'm four hours after the cutoff, I think, and I go and I and I don't even everything's gone, right? You know, they're all the things gone, and the finish line's gone, and I'm taking a picture. I go, I think this is where the finish line is, and the snow is still blowing sideways, right? You know, and then I go, I was you you know how you do this, you start. I don't know if you got well, I think almost all of us do that. You think about what you're gonna eat when you're done, you know. And so the finish line was this great hamburger place, and all I was thinking is like, oh my god, I'm gonna have this juicy hamburger and fries, wasn't it? And a big chocolate shake, and I'm just a milkshake, yeah. The whole time at the end. And I so I would come down there with my little sled and and I open up this little cafe, and this still gets to me, man. And this lady who's running the cafe, she goes, You must be Bill. I go, I go, How did you know that? She said, Rita said you might be coming. She goes, Congratulations, and the whole the little shop with about six people all started clapping for me and said, Great job. And that was my award ceremony. It meant more than any other award ceremony. It was a big deal to me, you know.
SPEAKER_03:That's that's special, that's unique.
SPEAKER_00:That is, I love watching the golden hour of hundred mile races. I find it more inspiring than watching the winners cross the finish line.
SPEAKER_01:You're is that what it's called? The golden hour. I love it. Yeah, the last hour. Because you know what? I started doing the the Iron Man's. One of the reasons was because I showed up in Hawaii. I was just biking at the time, and the and the Iron Man was going on, you know, and I watched the winners come across. I was biking around the big island. I was just bike, you know, ultra biking or whatever. And uh, and then you know what? I they go, you gotta stick around and watch the last place, people. And so I came, you know, I came back out and I watched those of you. I go, these are my people because they're out there like twice as long, you know, suffering and you know, same effort, but twice as long out there. They're just slower, you know.
SPEAKER_03:So that that they get the most value, they they they they they run the most, they they have to they have to survive longer, which like you think about the fast people, like not to generalize, but like, you know, to run a hundred in 17 hours takes, you know, it's a lot of physical effort to run that fast. But they don't have to manage as much gear and food as somebody who runs 27 hours, right? Those 10 more hours, it's more time in between aid stations, it's more time out in the wild, more time dealing with your stomach.
SPEAKER_00:More sleep deprivation, more suffering.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, more stuff to go wrong, man. Yeah. So anyway, so next was bad water, right? I go, well, I get cold. Now I gotta go do hot. Oh my gosh. And so I went down to uh I went down to Death Valley, and uh, you know, so that so you're running 135 miles, and you do have a van, you know, for for safety, because I I do comp I do a lot of times say that arrow. Head is like bad water without the van because that's because you do go so far in between checkpoints.
SPEAKER_03:We thought of that, like in terms of like like bad water makes it feel like a team sport because your van is there the whole time, right? Like they every couple miles you're seeing your crew. But in arrowhead, I mean what do you what are there? Three checkpoints, three basically a solo adventure, you know, same distance, uh opposite uh you know, climate, but one is you know individual and one is more team. One when you have so much more support, right?
SPEAKER_01:But I will tell you in bad water, I didn't all the way learn my lesson on the hyponeutremia, right? Oh no, I mean it's hot because it got hot. It would, I mean, really hot down there, and so I'm like still got my camel back, still chugging off to stay cool, still had problems with my you know, flushing out my electrolytes, my legs after like 40 miles felt like uh daggers were going into them, you know. And uh they they actually weighed us um before the race. I was in some test, right? And and and they weighed me afterwards, and I was like 15 pounds or something over my starting weight. I think I looked like I was pregnant, but I I wasn't thirsty.
SPEAKER_03:You weren't dehydrated, they're usually weighing you for I weren't they weren't they trying to see if you lost weight if you lost weight, right?
SPEAKER_01:Like I think I guess that's what it was, but I gained. And then so here we're at the after we finish, and they're like, don't drink another thing, man. You're in danger of drowning in your own fluids, right? And so my crew, we go out like I'm just dying for like a pizza. This one's pizza, not a hamburger. Okay, and I'm dying for a pizza, and so we go to the pizza parlor and everybody's watching me to make sure, like, if I'm gonna drink, I go, you asses, of course I'm gonna drink. I ain't gonna eat a pizza after I've been in the desert for three days or two and a half days with no water. But I didn't drown. But but the Death Valley thing was, yeah, it was like I paced a guy the year before. They made me pace a guy to get into the race, you know. And I remember so you get the feel for what the desert's like because it's different than being in a sauna. I was like spending a lot of time in a sauna, but you're not move, I'm not moving in the sauna. And it's different when you're out there moving. And I was pacing a guy who was a veteran, you know, his name was Dan, and uh great, great guy, you know, and he looked at me and he goes, Bill, get in the van. I go, why? He goes, Because you're quiet. I go, what does that mean? He goes, You're never quiet. Because if you get if you get sick in the desert, you know what I mean, you get any kind of heat stroke or anything, and you have to go to the hospital, they have to go with you back then. You put a stake in the ground and they have to go with you to the hospital, and then they come back with you to the race, right? Really? Yeah, I don't know if you'd be able to do it with how tight the cutoffs are nowadays, but that was what so he was like, You can't get in trouble, you need to, and usually it's the crew that gets in trouble, not the runners.
SPEAKER_03:Well, yeah, the the runners have prepared a lot, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I but I never I didn't know it would be that bad, like when you're moving, you know. So I went out the next year when I went and I got out there a little bit early to get used to the heat, you know what I mean? And and did some practice like walks or jogs or whatever, you know.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, it's not just the ambient temperature, you also have the sun like cooking you. It's all of it radiating, and then you have the radiation off of the tarmac on the road.
SPEAKER_01:Heat coming off the ground, it's all freaking hot. They they on those hot years, they put a pan down and you can fry an egg, you know.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, it's like clearly you loved it, you came back.
SPEAKER_01:I always love it all, man. Anything that's hard, you know. My my saying is if it if it if it can't kill you, it's probably gonna bore me. So I wouldn't be interested in it. At some level, it's gotta be able to kill you.
SPEAKER_00:Bill, what is your relationship to suffering?
SPEAKER_01:Uh, I think it's the uh I think it's how you have a good life, man. You know, if you if you want to just have a cozy, cushy life with no suffering, you're gonna, it's gonna be boring, you know. And I don't know, when I get bored, after that I get depressed. You know what I mean? It's it's not very far after boredom. So I think you know, you you need to to do anything worthwhile in this world, you gotta push the envelope, and that's gonna involve suffering. And it could be in business. You're gonna, and I did suffer in business, you know what I mean. I use credit cards and people wouldn't lend me money, and you, you know, whatever it takes to get that done, too, you know. But yeah, I think it's the suffering is you're earning, you're earning the right to, I don't know, to have a good life. Really, to have a good life. Yeah, you feel it's a it's like a toll you have to pay. It's a toll. Yeah, you can't just sit in a I I remember Jim Rome did this thing. So you want to have a safe life. He goes, Well, why don't you sit in that corner over there and I'll put a pillow in that corner? I'll come by every day and give you three meals. You know what I mean? I'll bring water to you, and you'll have a really safe life. And the guy goes, Well, what kind of life would that be? And he's like, Absolutely, that's the truth. You want to leave a safe life, that's what it is.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I always say not everything worth doing is easy and fun.
SPEAKER_01:No, I don't think anything worth doing is easy and fun. I mean, I used to drink, that was kind of fun, but I got over that.
SPEAKER_03:Probably doesn't have the same worth doing, though.
SPEAKER_01:No.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, so bad water. Now arrowhead. The opposite. And this has been elusive for you. You've attempted eight times.
unknown:Twelve?
SPEAKER_00:Well times.
SPEAKER_01:It was eight when the movie came out. Oh, I'm still going back. I'm still going back. I never quit. I never quit. Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Tell me some. Tell me about Arrowhead. What drew you to this adventure having come from Bad Water? Now you're going to Arrowhead.
SPEAKER_01:And I think I started hearing about it at inner, you know, up in Alaska. They go, Oh, you think the Susitna 100's cold? You got to go do this Arrowhead race. And it was only a few years old at that point, maybe two or three years old. They go, It is like so cold, you can't believe it. The guy who started that race, like he uh graphed like the like the coldest time of the year for 10 years to figure out what the exact coldest day was. I love that guy. That guy's when he closed the race every year on the coldest day of the year, you know, in the coldest spot in the continental US. Right on the Canadian border, man. And like I said, I did the Alaska race, and then I go out there and I go, like, I mean, my hands froze, right? You know, you guys are from Boulders, so you know more about cold. I'm from California, right? And so my hands froze when I was going out to the first checkpoint. I'm going, like, how come my hands freeze? I bought the best gloves in Santa Rosa REI.
SPEAKER_03:Oh my god. It's like getting a down jacket in San Diego. You think that's gonna work?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I didn't even know that's how much I know, dude. I remember I made it to the little gas station there at 37 miles, and I'm in there. My hands are like I can't even undo my sled or anything. Yeah, and I'm like, I'm like going by the hot dog warmer trying to get some feel in my fingers, you know. And and I was like, wow, this is a crazy race. This is crazy. And like people were all dropping then, you know, they're all dropping, and I'm like, and there were a couple guys I had been with, and I'd go, dude, let's go back out. We got to go for the next one. But now it's dark and it's really cold. It was minus 35 on the way out there. I had never felt anything near that. I didn't even know it's where cold to the bone was invented in International Falls, Minnesota. Woo woo! So it's like minus 35. Nobody wants to go out with me. It's pitch black and really cold. And I go, Well, I don't quit, and so I go out by myself, right? You know, and I'm out there and I remember I was at like a fork in the road, and I hadn't seen anybody in like six hours or four hours. And I'm like, oh man, I could figure out what way a hundred freaking guys went, you know, with uh, you know, the the bikes and the and the on foot, and then there's ski. I don't think ski was that year because it was too cold. But in and uh and I I'm down looking at the ground on this fork, and I go, oh, it's left. And so I start to go to the left. Just then, my who's my buddy now, he was on on patrol, you know, safety patrol. He pulls up on the snowmobile, goes, wrong way. It's that way. Otherwise, you're in the middle of fucking nowheres. But I go, so I so I go the right way, and they had told me that the checkpoint was like this restaurant up there, you know. And I keep looking, you know, you know how when you get you're cold, you're tired, and now I'm so cold I don't want to go back to my sled to get more food, so you're bonking because you don't want to stop eating, you know. Yeah, you stop eating because you're so cold, and and I and then I get to where the the the the checkpoint is they didn't even have there was no cutoffs back then, right? So I get to where the restaurant is and it's pitch black, and I had been bonked for like the last hour and a half or two hours, just barely moving, going for this checkpoint. I go, I go, they left me, they left me, and so I'm knocking on all the windows, and people go, Didn't you think about breaking a window? I go, No, I never think of that. So I'm knocking on all the windows, and then I go, like, because I had gone to this uh safety thing up in Alaska, you know. The guy said, if you're gonna, you know, to really learn about the snow and you know, like a like a weekend safety camp or whatever, you know, really good for me. But the main thing I remember from the camp was, Bill, you got to get in your sled while you're in your sleeping bag while you still can. And I was starting to shake so bad, you know. I guess that's how people die. They're shaking so bad they can't get in their sleeping bag. And I ran over to my sleeping bag, I whip it out, man. And then I'm like, I throw it on the I'm on a parking lot with ice on it. I just throw it straight down on the icy parking lot. I get in it and I go like, and and and I remember like I never quit. And I go, okay, I quit. I'm in there, I'm hyperventilating. I'm so I'm so freaked out. I'm like, ah, ha ha ha. And I and I was in there for like three hours, and then I hear a guy yells, hey Bradley, it was a guy I'd been with earlier in the race. He goes, Hey Bradley, you want to get on, you want to come into a nice warm cabin? I go, no, I really like this ice-covered parking lot.
SPEAKER_03:This is where I want to be.
SPEAKER_01:It was like a core, it was like a quarter mile away was the cabin, but you I you know it was dark. It's way better marked nowadays. But back then, you know, and so yeah, I went into the cabin and that was it. But I go, like, oh my god, I love this race, it's so freaking hard. I couldn't believe how hard it was.
SPEAKER_03:Was that your first time you quit on a race?
SPEAKER_01:I think it was, yeah. That in the in I got sick in the English Channel too.
SPEAKER_04:I was swimming, they were right around the running across the English Channel.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I'm out there puking in the middle of the English Channel that I'm you know for four hours, seasick, throwing up. Like, I don't quit. That's why I'm gonna make it the other side, and then pretty soon you're so weak that you're straight up and down in the water, and you're like, okay, I I think I'm gonna quit before I sink to the bottom of this ocean. Pretty much those two were right around the same time, but that uh yeah, I was like, I was way, way over what the cutoff would be nowadays, like six hours over it, probably.
SPEAKER_00:And failure must teach you a lot of lessons. What have you learned from failing at these events?
SPEAKER_01:I'll tell you one thing. In the beginning, I didn't like it at all. I hated it. I was depressed as can be. Like I, you know, I just kept going back to Arrowhead and I go, I'm gonna get this thing, man. I'm gonna get it no matter what it takes. I'm gonna get it. I don't stop, I don't quit. And uh, you know, trying. And I remember um, you know, but people would all ask, they go, What what what race you got next? I go, Oh, I got arrowhead. They go, Well, haven't you done it before? I go, Oh, I don't know, maybe two or three times, you know. And then I really I hadn't I hadn't kept track because I was always embarrassed that I couldn't make it, right? And then Quinn, the the director of the film that I'm in, you know, that was one where my my sister came to me and said, Hey, what do you think about my son who's graduating from film school and his friends doing a documentary on you, you know? Oh yeah, that's that's where it came from. I said, Well, I I go, that sounds great, man, you know. And she goes, Well, what do you got next? I go, Well, I got internet arrowhead in International Falls, Minnesota, and these kids are all from LA, right? And she says, Well, you need to hire somebody out there to drive them around. And so I got a local guy who like really outdoorsy, they're all pretty outdoorsy guys, you know, local guy, and and he drove them around and everything. But I remember Quinn came up to me before the race and she goes, Bill, do you know what attempt this is? I go, I don't know, two or three. She goes, It's eight, Bill. I go, no way, it's not eight. She goes, Yeah, I went down the official race register and it's your eighth attempt. I go, there's no, I couldn't believe it. That's how bad I like blocked the failure out of my mind, you know. And then it was like after the movie came out, it was almost like a badge of honor that I kept showing up out there, you know. Like people go, that guy just doesn't quit. He keeps coming back, you know. No matter how bad he gets tortured, he comes back, you know. And and so then now it's like, yeah, I I I I don't, you know, I don't want to fail. I still hate it. I just don't go into depression for like two or three weeks after I fail. A little healthier. I'm snapping out of it quicker, you know.
SPEAKER_03:It definitely took me a while to figure out how to not quit. I I wonder if you like, did that come easily to you? The idea that I am just, you know, when I start these things, I am just never gonna quit unless my life's on the line. Uh, did that come easily?
SPEAKER_01:I think it came because of junior high. I was I analyzed the hell out of this. I go, why don't I quit on these things? Why do I keep coming back? You could you can give me like frostbite so bad my thumb, like I have to go to three doctors to see if I'm gonna keep it when I was on Mountain Alley, I got frostbite so bad my thumb turned totally black, you know. And yeah, okay. And uh, you know, and I go, but I'm good, but I go back anyway. I just like they say, Hey, have you already had frostbite? And I say, No. And then I get extra hand warmers. They go, Oh no, everybody only gets three. I go, and then I'll go back to the bag and I grab like another six. I go, no, I gotta keep this thumb warm. But yeah, I uh and and and I I thought it was like junior high because I did I was a late bloomer, whatever you call it. I'm like six foot two now. In in junior high and in in ninth grade, I was five two, right? So, and I'd been playing all the ball sports. So in junior high, yeah, I didn't make I couldn't make the top three in the track team, you know, for like the 1320 was our distance. I got cut from the basketball team, cut from the baseball team, you know, didn't play on the football team, just basically cut from everything, couldn't make track, you know, couldn't make, you know, couldn't make the top three on the track team. And uh so I started playing soccer in junior high, right? Okay, I'm like, you know why? We don't even know it's not was it was new to our school. I had no passion for it, but they didn't cut. God, I didn't want to get cut again. I remember when I got cut in basketball, I looked at the list and I ran out of the gym crying, man. I go, like, I don't think you're supposed to do this in ninth grade. But I but yeah, so I so I but in my sophomore year, I was up in Lake Tahoe with one of my friends, and he was still running. He was actually really great runner back, he's still got the high school two-mile record in our high school, and he was running up in Lake Tahoe, and so we went, we were up there camping and you know, with his family and all this stuff, and he went for an eight-mile run. He says, You want to go, Bill? And so I said, Yeah, I'll go. And I hadn't run in like years, right? I mean, not you know, and I ran four miles and then I had to take a bus back to the we were at a hotel then. I had to take a bus back to the hotel, and I go like because I was so wiped out, but it hooked me again. I was like, I'm going back to running, right? You know, because I just thought everything that I failed at, I was never gonna do again in my life because it was so painful to fail, you know. And then and then, but I'd grown a foot too, and so I ended up, I went back out for the track team and I got fifth in the county, you know what I mean. I was I turned out I was a good runner, you know. And uh, and then it was like I got fifth in the county, and I said, I'm never quitting again, and I haven't quit since. I went from being a huge quitter to not quitting at all on things anymore.
SPEAKER_00:And Bill, I'm really curious about some of the lessons that you see that apply to both entrepreneurship and ultra running.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think you know, the bankruptcy. I remember I did this, it was like just my own 150-mile run, right? You know, um, you know, a piece of totally reasonable. That's incredible. Yes, set up this 150-mile run and you know, had a you know, had a crew and all that, just you know, because I had done like Dean Karnasses in his book, The Ultraman, was the first guy, he did that 10-person relay solo, and then I was the second person that ever did it solo, you know, because it because I read a Dean's book, and I always think well, if if somebody can do it, I can do it. I always think that it's sometimes it takes maybe many, many, many years, but I keep trying. But I did it, I did it, I did it solo, and then I like, you know, and then I remember I did it another time, I did it solo and I swam the golden gate because now I'm a swimmer, right? You know, and I swam the golden gate, so I ran a hundred miles of golden gate and I and I ran, you know, ran another hundred miles. And then I'm I keep trying to one-up myself. So I said, well, I'm gonna run a hundred and fifty mile course. And I started down in Santa Cruz and ran like all over the place to get this 150 miles. But I remember in the middle of the night, you know, this is right, you know, after the bankruptcy, and and I was sitting there and I was just like, I, you know, when you're doing that death march in the middle of the night, and I'm like, you know what? At least this is gonna end. This is this will end that bankruptcy went on and on for like a year and a half. A$10 million chain, it's not a quick bankruptcy, it was very painful. And and then I go, this is gonna be over in a couple days, and so I I I I use that pain from the bankruptcy to say this pain that I'm going through right now in the middle of the night is nothing compared to that bankruptcy pain. So I did I do use different things that have caused me so much pain in life and and use those as as things to say it could be worse.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, it's a it's a powerful uh idea that what you're going through is not as bad as your brain is making it out to be. Right? Like your brain wants to say, hey, this is the worst thing that's ever happened. It's like, but all I'm doing is walking in the middle of the night, right? And maybe some things hurt. You know, like and and the the things we go through in life can be so much more painful. And as you say, emotionally, like watching everything you've built for 10 years just crumble around you. 20 years, 20 years.
SPEAKER_01:Wow, 20. Yeah, yeah. It was it was like, yeah, I go, this is gonna end in like two days, you know what I mean. I can do anything for two days. I'm telling you though, at Arrowhead, when it's the middle of the night on those cold years, man, we we walk like zombies out there. There is nothing, it's horrendously horrible. And I don't know if the the bankruptcy is worse than walking through the middle of the night at Arrowhead.
SPEAKER_00:I might not think so.
SPEAKER_03:I got I got a race for you. It's called the Utah 115. It's like it's like that one with sand.
SPEAKER_01:I know they're crazy. The race are getting crazier and crazier, man. They're doing the 200 milers now, man. I mean, I gotta admit, I was watching clips of that Moab 240. It was getting me back in that 200-mile buzz going, you know.
SPEAKER_00:Bill, what what is next for you?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I'm swimming right now. I mean, I I was I'm I I took I've took in eight, like I was kind of mentioning to you, I've taken five attempts at the English Channel. So I'm a guy who didn't learn to swim until I was mid-30s. I only learned to swim to do the triathlons, you know, and and that's the only reason I learned to swim. And then I I remember I went out to the Ultraman in Hawaii, right? Which is like two and a half Ironmans or something. You go around the big island, you know. And and the girl, it was a 10K swim with a wetsuit in a calm bay. And the girl who beat me in the swim by like five minutes, they did the at the award ceremony. They she mentioned that she had swam the English Channel. I'm always famous for this. If she could do it, I could do it. She only beat me by five minutes in the swim. Of course, that was 13 years ago. But I went, I signed up, man. I went, I went down and and I signed up. I gave a deposit. I called, I found a boat pilot. She recommended a boat pilot. I called a boat pilot. I I take action fast, right? And then I remember I went down to San Francisco Bay and uh and I signed up for the at the time I was signed up for the dolphin club down there. And the lady, she goes, You're gonna swim the English Channel? I go, she goes, Well, what have you done? She says, Well, I swam uh you know a 10K in a bay in a wetsuit in uh in Hawaii. She said, Well, what if you come down here and you don't like the cold water and in the bay? And I go, Well, that's not gonna happen because I already gave my deposit. So I remember when I went down to meet this lady because she's gonna show me how it works, and it was one of those foggy days in San Francisco, and people are walking out of the water in the fog, and I'm like thinking, holy cows, what have I gotten myself into? And I remember I went out and I did like a 20-minute swim or something, you know. But within three months, I did I made my six-hour English channel qualifying swim. You know, I mean, it's just I just kept showing up down there and and and doing it, you know. But but I I did when I went out to England that first time, the guy looked at me, he met me at the uh at the airport, the pilot I'd caught, and he says, So I looked at your website, Bill. You're an extreme endurance athlete, huh? And you think you could swim the English channel? He goes, There's no way in hell you're gonna be able to swim the channel. No way in hell. Our worst guy, my worst guy lasted 20 minutes, and then he begged me to pull him out of the water. And I'm going, like, I walked away from meeting this guy, go, wow, that was really unusual service for a guy. I just handed a$3,000 check to you. Yeah. Yeah. And so check this out. Two days later, he calls me, he goes, Hey, Bill, it look it's looking good for your swim tomorrow, right? And I go down, you you meet him at the boat dock, and then you go down about a half hour ride down the coast to where my swim would start, you know, based on what my my estimated speed is or whatever, you know. And so we we were going down the coast, it's like three in the morning, pitch black, white caps everywhere. I go, dude, you said it was gonna be nice. And he starts laughing. He goes, surprise, storm blew in, Bill. And he starts laughing. I go, what a dick. We hate this guy. I know, I know. So then I do so. You gotta jump off the boat and he swimmed ashore, right? And so I swim to shore, and I swim to shore, and as I'm standing up to get out of the water, a big wave hits me on the back, drives me into onto my knees, and I crawl out. This is three, three, three: thirty in the morning, pitch black, nasty ocean. Like to this day, it's the roughest water I've ever swam in to this day. And so I go, I I so I raise my hand and go, I think I'm ready. And I jumped in that water and I'm getting hit from side. I couldn't even tell which way was up. Like I said, roughest water I've ever been in, still to this day. And you know what I was thinking the whole time I was swimming? No, please, please last 20 minutes. You don't want to be a laughing stock.
SPEAKER_03:You gotta last 20 minutes.
SPEAKER_01:I ended up, I lasted four hours, but for the last three hours, I just threw up the whole time. I was totally seasick out because of the the waves, it was just it was so rough, man. It was like when you feed, they throw your your food off of a boat, you know, on a line, and you can't touch the boat, and the boat was going like crazy. I was like, I was worried it's gonna knock me out.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, sorry.
SPEAKER_01:When are you attempting this? Uh I signed up for I took eight years off because I was so burned out on swimming, right? You know, I've done it for like five years, I was burnt, but I never quit, remember? Yeah, right. So so one day I looked at the bay and I go, ooh, it's starting to look sexier again. Just gotta wait. So I signed up again for the for the channel, got my same boat pilot, the one I've used the last three times, it was really cool. So I made it on my long swim 20 miles. I mean, I got to where I'm pretty damn good swimmer. I swam for almost 11 hours straight, no wetsuit. You get like uh, you know, 30-second breaks where you tread and you you eat your food every half an hour. And and that, and on my fifth attempt, what happened was a storm blew in at the very end. Like they put up a sign said four miles to go, then a storm blew in and separated me from the boat. And uh yeah, and when I finally found the boat, the guy goes, I think I gotta call this, Bill. It's hard to stay with you in this warm weather. And I and I go, like, well, dude, I'm totally cooked anyway. And there had been a guy who started the same time as me, right? We you swim to shore, and and the guy had yelled, he yelled at me from our boats, you know. We started the same time, and he goes, Hey man, I'll see you in the I'll see you in the drink, mate. He was an Australian guy, you know. And and we get in, we swim to shore, and then we raise our hands, and and the guy goes off like a bullet, you know, and he was just gone. And anyway, the bottom line is I'm like, I get out there, the guy hands me my bucket, and and he hands me a bucket. I go, no, I have patches. Now I'm wearing patches so I don't get seasick, right? And he I go, I'm good. He goes, No, you just hold on to that bucket, Bill. He knew I was so worked that when the it was so rough that I started puking in that bucket. I had, you know, two-hour ride back to England puking in the bucket, and then I hear over the the radio that the Australian guy made it to shore. I go, how did he make it to shore with that storm hit? He goes, he was so fast that he got protected by the cliffs, and uh and he was he he and he made it to shore. And I said, so he makes it ashore because he's fast, and I get the constellation prize a bucket back to England. So So yeah. So anyway, what I'm what I'm saying is I'm I'm training, I'm running and swimming right now. I am training to do a six-minute mile. I haven't done one in 25 years. I was a miler, half miler in high school.
SPEAKER_00:I can't do a six-minute mile, though.
SPEAKER_01:Well, maybe you will after I do one.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, if Bill can do it.
SPEAKER_01:Fuck yeah, that's what you got to say. I can do it. I'm losing weight like crazy. I gotta get lean for this, man. I'm doing like the Goggins diet. You know, I eat like I'm eating like a thousand calories to 1200 calories a day and training, you know. Oh, it's like I'm like I'm starving. I'm so weak, and I go, Goggins can do it, I could do it. I'm down like I'm down like 12 pounds, but yeah, and then I'm like, I'm looking at those. I like those 200s, man. I'm gonna I'm gonna get myself a really good run-in shape, man, for those 200s. John signed up for cooking.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, there's a lot of good interesting ones out there. I mean, it's not just the the big three anymore. There's there's a lot of little ones that look interesting and fun. I I mean I'm not doing a little one, I'm doing Kokodona, it's like the biggest one.
SPEAKER_01:But good for you. Oh, you're doing 200 miler?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, it'll be my first uh next May, the Kokodona 250.
SPEAKER_01:I didn't even know these 200 milers were so hot till I just started watching. They just got that way.
SPEAKER_00:I feel like they came out of nowhere.
SPEAKER_01:I know. Well, when I do 100, I was the only I was the only guy. I finished that year. I was the only guy to finish that. I ran that 200 miler with the relays, and I remember they handed me this this big like trophy looking thing. I go, Oh my god, I haven't had one of these since bowling trophy. And then it was like somebody started tugging war in me for this trophy, and the guy goes, I think you gotta let that go, Bill. It's it's like they take pictures with that trophy. Oh, you didn't get to keep it, and you're like, I ran 200 miles. It's a picture trophy. I go, I didn't even know they had picture trophies.
SPEAKER_02:They do that at our local 5k. They have these little plates that say first, second, third. And so they bring they bring you up, and you're like, cool, I got third. And then they're like, We need that little plate back for the next picture.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I'm like having a tug of war with the guy after I ran 200 miles. I go, you're gonna have to drag this out of my hand.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you win, you don't even get to keep it.
SPEAKER_03:We do it. Uh the English channel is so interesting. Is that logistically difficult to plan? Because you you have to like you have a specific point you're trying to swim to, right? And based on your speed, you have to start a good ways up the coast so that the the current pushes you to that point you're trying to get to, and you have to maintain that certain speed, otherwise you'll get pushed too far, or you won't get pushed far enough and you won't hit the right point.
SPEAKER_01:Dude, you know stuff, man, about stuff. Very I'm impressed, man. Yeah, you're supposed to hit that. What is that point called, man? It's uh it's famous.
SPEAKER_03:Is it a is it a is it a cape or a peninsula? I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_01:No, it's a point, and you have to hit it. So this is like on my fifth attempt when that storm hit, right? Because right before the storm hit, they put up a sign it said four miles to go, right? And I go, Oh my god, I got this, right? I've been swimming like 10 hours. I go, I got this. I feel good, four miles to go. And then this storm blows in and it's hitting me head on, head on. And I'm just digging, digging, digging. And then I and then I swim for an hour like that, and then they put up another sign. You know what it says? Five miles. Seven miles to go. I go, how the hell could it say seven? And the reason was we got pushed past that point. We got I was I the I wasn't going backwards, but I wasn't going in either. I was just going sideways. So the the the current was the tide was pushing me sideways. So calais. I went past calais point, and then it's further in. And I'm trying to, I don't even know this stuff, and I'm in the water, right? I'm going like so confused. Never tell the crew to never put a sign up that was bigger than the last one. What a mind screw that was.
SPEAKER_00:I can't imagine in like a big race seeing a sign that was that was like two miles to go, and then all of a sudden the sign's like 10 miles to go.
SPEAKER_01:Arrowhead, Arrowhead is, you know, I mean, that's why we all got the GPS's and all that, because you would ask like the guys on this on the sledge, you know, they're out there for safety, how far, and they're just guessing, you know, and they're always it's either, you know, like, oh, it's just like three miles, and then it's like eight miles, and you're like, oh, this is the longest three miles ever.
SPEAKER_03:Can't can't trust what anybody says.
SPEAKER_01:I know that's so true.
SPEAKER_03:GPSs do make it easier, like I guess, to do that navigation. I mean, you talked about Arrowhead in the early years, like where you have to you have to make these correct chit choices, you have to find that right cabin where there's nobody hanging out outside. But like these days, I mean, you you just you just follow your watch, tells you where to go.
SPEAKER_01:No, it's like it's and the and the gear is so much better. Like, we didn't know shit, right? We're all wearing down jackets, and the down jackets would just get soaked. When we get to the first checkpoint, we had to freaking dry them all off before we could go, you know. Now we got all the wicking stuff, and you're, you know, we we learned a lot about, you know, the you know, just the different type of layers that we all have, and and the socks and the shoes are so much better, man.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I read a lot about all your blister problems.
SPEAKER_01:Oh my god.
SPEAKER_00:Bill, your blister, your 11 blisters being repopped and repoped during the Grand Canyon, right?
SPEAKER_01:If I knew I knew in Arrowhead what I knew in the Grand Canyon, what I learned in the Grand Canyon, I probably I might have finished Arrowhead. My second or third attempt, I made it 98 miles, and I took a break and slept in a, you know, because I was just I was falling asleep on my feet, and and I took a break and uh and I went to stand up, and I it was like it's in the movie where the guys were they're popping my blisters. Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, closed my eyes during that moment.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and I and I was like, I gotta go, I gotta go, I gotta go because I had to leave the chat checkpoint. And so, you know, when I leave, um, I went, I I went like 20-something miles, whatever it was, 72. I went to 98, and then I had to sleep. I was just falling asleep on my feet. And then when I got up, I couldn't even stand my feet had out now that trench foot had outswelled my shoes. And I was like, it was like like level 10 pain. It was so excruciating.
SPEAKER_03:Trench foot is incredibly painful.
SPEAKER_01:Oh my god. But I got it in the Grand Canyon, and you know what my buddy told me in the Grand Canyon, because he's super smart, Danny. He says, Bill, if you go for about 10 minutes or 20 minutes, that swelling in your feet will start going down, right? So if you could last like 20 minutes with this level 10 pain, the swelling was, and that's how I finished the Grand Canyon was because on that seventh crossing, I had really bad trench foot. Yeah, bad, horrendous blisters from going in and out of the water and all that stuff. How many crossings was that? I did seven. Seven, yeah, 42,000 feet of climbing. Yeah, it was the record at the time because we went to all the running clubs around there and asked who had done the most. And the most that anybody had done back then was a quad, right? And then and then I put it out that I was gonna go for five and break the the unofficial world record, right? Or whatever. And then this is where I learned don't put your stuff out ahead of time because then some guy went down there and did six. And I'm like, oh my god, a guy did six, I haven't even had a chance to do my five. So then I go, of course I had to do seven. I couldn't let that guy beat me, man. So I went down there and didn't have a radar. No, you got to break the record and then put the press out. Don't do it ahead of time.
SPEAKER_00:Well, Bill, this has been great. It's been great having you. Um, we like to end our podcast by asking our guests to give a piece of advice to our listeners. And I'm sure you have a piece of advice to share.
SPEAKER_01:I'm sure I got something. I I would say, like, it's like, you know, we all got big dreams and things, you know, like maybe you've shelved a big dream for a long time, you know, like one that you know you put away, that'll start giving you those depressed look in your eyes, you know, if you shelve, if you don't do that, if you don't complete that dream. And maybe you need to take that dream off that shelf and start going after that comfort zone and start going after that dream and don't quit till you get it, and you'll have a good life. Woo woo! Woo woo.
SPEAKER_03:I think that's a great piece of advice. Thank you so much for being on the podcast, Bill. Um, and yeah, happy trials and good luck on the English channel.
SPEAKER_01:We'll be watching. I'm gonna swim this summer. I think I'm swimming out to the Santa Barbara channel, like a 12-mile swim this summer. And then the English channel will be next year, and I'll be running though. I'm gonna do cross training this time.
SPEAKER_00:Excellent. All right, we'll be watching.
SPEAKER_01:You'll hear the yell when I break a six minute mile.