SPEAKER_00: 0:10

Hello and welcome to Running with Problems. My name is John Eisen.

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And I'm Miranda Williamson.

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Running with Problems is a podcast about the lives of runners and the problems they inevitably face. Today on the podcast, we have astoundingly awesome, incredible runner, Camille Heron.

SPEAKER_02: 0:28

Woo! I'm super excited to share this episode.

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Holder of so many world championships, world records, uh icon. An absolutely incredible runner, one of the best runners of our time. Also embroiled in quite a bit of controversy.

SPEAKER_02: 0:46

Yes. Which I ho I really well, we'll get into that in a minute. But I really like um where this episode ended up.

SPEAKER_00: 0:55

Well, before we get to that, Miranda, how are you doing?

SPEAKER_02: 0:58

I'm doing really good. Training has kicked off for Avalon 50 Miler.

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Where is that race?

SPEAKER_02: 1:04

That is on Catalina Island.

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Santa Catalina Island.

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We are both on the wait list.

SPEAKER_00: 1:09

We are on the wait list. We are looking forward to getting off the wait list.

SPEAKER_02: 1:13

Yes, I'm very much looking forward to everyone uh eating their Thanksgiving dinner and drinking a little bit too much booze and regretting their life decisions and pulling out.

SPEAKER_00: 1:26

Well, I don't want anybody to regret their life decisions, but if you are not gonna run Avalon, make sure to let the race director know.

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So that we can go run it.

SPEAKER_00: 1:36

Yeah. That race is fun. It's it's not really a trail race, though.

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It'll be your second time running it.

SPEAKER_00: 1:42

Yeah, my second.

SPEAKER_02: 1:43

My first time doing the 50 miler.

SPEAKER_00: 1:45

Right. Last time you promised me that you would do the 50 miler, and then at the last moment you you went down to the 50k. Were you afraid of losing to me?

SPEAKER_02: 1:57

I knew that I was because because of all the winter training, and we had a lot of snow and a big winter. I knew that I was in phenomenal shape to crush a 50K, but I would not crush a 50 miler. I was I would struggle through it. So that's what I was afraid of. And I was. I would that was my fastest 50k I've ever done.

SPEAKER_00: 2:21

And now you are not afraid of losing to me. You are actually excited to win. You expect to be winning. Now, where is our series at?

SPEAKER_02: 2:34

I think you're ahead one.

SPEAKER_00: 2:36

Yeah, four to three.

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Four to three.

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So you're looking to tie it up.

SPEAKER_02: 2:39

I'm looking to tie up our series, solidly beat you, and yes, have a good time. And have a really good time with my girlfriends. Um both McKinsey and Corianne are coming out to run it as well.

SPEAKER_00: 2:55

Oh, it's gonna be And Brendan. Oh, and Brendan. Yes, he's one of the girls now.

SPEAKER_02: 2:59

He's one of the girls now.

SPEAKER_00: 3:02

Well, that'll be a lot of fun. I think training as well. Uh, I just went to Michael, uh, my physical therapist. He's been on the podcast a couple times, Michael Morrison, DPT. I trust him so much with my body. I went to see him, and I my essentially my complaint was my left leg doesn't work like my right leg help me. And we came together, we kind of we kind of theorized that there's two pro two main problems. One is like a strain in my hamstring, and one would be like a nerve issue where I'm just a little tight through the nerve chain. So I got some exercises to help try and fix these problems, help rehab this uh leg. At the same time, I'm into training. I just finished my first little three-week block and I'm going into my uh second. Uh Avalon will be just a pit stop on the way to Coca Dona for me.

SPEAKER_02: 4:04

Kicks off training for you.

SPEAKER_00: 4:06

Yeah, it's gonna be good. So today's podcast, big podcast. Are you excited to drop this one?

SPEAKER_02: 4:13

I haven't been this excited to drop an episode in a very long time.

SPEAKER_00: 4:18

We were so I mean, I I wasn't really nervous. I don't get as nervous anymore for our guests because you know, we've been doing this for almost three years now. Yes, but this was definitely like a big interview for us, a big get. I'm so happy that Camille. We actually I I I DM'd her on Instagram after she followed our podcast and just asked her out of the blue and she agreed, which was I I didn't actually think would happen. So I'm pretty pretty stoked about that.

SPEAKER_02: 4:48

It was very generous of her. And the reason I'm so excited is not only because of how amazing Camille is and all of her accomplishments, but because of some of the controversy that has surrounded her, I think people get a misperception of who she is as a human being. Um and I left our conversation knowing her, feeling like I knew her and I liked her and I understood her. And I really hope that comes across in the interview. Um because she's just kind of a quirky fun person. She is, very authentic, strong sense of justice, strong sense of justice, which I also have a strong sense of justice. I'm a little bit more of a a rebel, though. Like my justice like has blurry lines.

SPEAKER_00: 5:45

And Camille's is a bit more follow the rules.

SPEAKER_02: 5:48

Yes, and it makes a lot of sense because she is on the spectrum. She um talks about it, and we talk about um getting diagnosed with autism and ADHD and how that has changed and shifted her understanding of herself.

SPEAKER_00: 6:04

I really enjoyed speaking to her. She's very open about being neurodivergent, and I connected with her over some of her more ADHD aspects that I share. She she also has hyper focus with her ADHD. She um, you know, she's very observant with her ADHD. And I experienced a lot of those traits as well. So it was actually pretty fun for me to I sort of pick and choose what I identify with in her, and we got to share some uh, you know, just two ADHD people over here just seeing everything and running in order to moderate our lives.

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And she talks about how it is both a superpower and a disability.

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Which I identify with so much.

SPEAKER_02: 6:55

Exactly. And she is working to pave the way in this sport that that doesn't really have accommodations for someone with her type of disability. And it's really uh she's got a a battle to pave the way. We all have battles when we have to pave the way and be the first.

SPEAKER_00: 7:16

We should probably set the stage for what some of the drama is that is surrounding her, because we don't explain it in the episode. Right. Uh if you're there is a Wikipedia drama, and we covered that at length in our previous episode about Camille Heron.

SPEAKER_02: 7:32

Uh essentially Can you go back and listen to that one? Yeah, we don't need to dive into that anymore.

SPEAKER_00: 7:41

It it's not a big deal in our opinion. Correct. Uh, but it is uh it is something that has uh certainly affected her over the past few months.

SPEAKER_02: 7:52

Yeah, she experienced a lot of online bullying because of it.

SPEAKER_00: 7:56

And then there's a second controversy that is very recent from this recording, where she was selected for the IAU International Association of Ultra Running, 24-hour world championship team for representing the USA. She, having run that in the past and winning the world championship, she decided that she wanted now that she's kind of realizing a lot more about herself and what affects her as you know, a non-normal person, right? Neurodivergent. She asked for accommodations from the IAU at the world championship, specifically, basically, like a not enclosed, not uh not crowded space to get aid, you know, basically saying, Hey, I don't do well in crowded spaces or in closed spaces. I would like to receive aid, you know, just in a slightly quieter area. Um and yeah, she basically was working with the IAU there and the USATF, and um and then there was some miscommunication with the team leader, and that's about that's about what the controversy is.

SPEAKER_02: 9:10

Right. So And no one there no one was able to come back and uh assure her that she would be able to receive accommodations.

SPEAKER_00: 9:20

So she didn't end up running the 24-hour world championship, and we do talk about that in the episode. What else did you enjoy about this episode?

SPEAKER_02: 9:31

Well, I mean, speaking to a legend, someone who has really laid the foundation for women in this sport to try to achieve great things and beat her incredibly brutal times.

SPEAKER_00: 9:48

She's an incredible runner. She's run, I I mean, she's won the world championship in the 24-hour, in the six-day, in I think she has the three-day record. I don't have all the list in front of me. Uh she's just got so many records. She, I mean, she basically brought back Six Day as like a record that people care about, uh, which is very cool. Uh, so she's she's doing a lot of fast stuff. She still tries stuff that's out of her wheelhouse. Uh, we even talked a little bit about Barkley after the episode. So that was fun.

SPEAKER_02: 10:20

Oh, you know what I was thinking of when we were talking to her that I didn't bring up. I was thinking of that article you wrote about the uh second article you wrote for the the magazine Front Range Dirt.

SPEAKER_00: 10:34

Yes, from Range Dirt From Zero to Belief.

SPEAKER_02: 10:36

Correct.

SPEAKER_00: 10:37

Which has not been published yet. Oh, you can talk about it.

SPEAKER_02: 10:40

Okay. Well, you wrote about how uh how people pave the way for others to come after them.

SPEAKER_00: 10:49

Yeah. Like like they help us, you know, if you go back to the four-minute mile or the first Barclay finish, like these are there are people that uh just don't conform to our group notions of belief. Like we all believe these uh truths are true, but there's some people who just don't conform. And they just think, you know what, I'm gonna go break that. And when they break those barriers, which doesn't happen often, and many fail before one succeeds, but when they do that, it allows the rest of us to you know believe ours in ourselves to accomplish those great tasks.

SPEAKER_02: 11:27

Yes, and that is who uh Camille Heron is. She is someone who did these great things that allowed others to come after her, women specifically, and believe in themselves.

SPEAKER_00: 11:41

I think that's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_02: 11:42

I think it's pretty cool too.

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If you have feedback for us at running with problems, send it in to podcast at runningwithproblems.run or DM us on Instagram at running with problems. We've really enjoyed making all this great content for y'all. We've been really up in our game on our side. So drop us a line, tell us if you like the episode, and give us a rating and review. Without further ado. Enjoy Camille Heron.

SPEAKER_02: 12:20

Camille Heron, welcome to the pod.

SPEAKER_01: 12:23

Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02: 12:26

And you're joining us from Arizona, right?

SPEAKER_01: 12:30

Yeah, I live in Tucson, Arizona. So uh yeah, running in a sports bra today while the rest of the country is really having fall and freezing.

SPEAKER_02: 12:39

Oh my gosh, amazing. Do you like running in the heat generally?

SPEAKER_01: 12:44

I do. I really like it here. It's it's really it's really nice. I my husband and I used to live in Alamosa, Colorado, which is like one of the coldest places in America. So we decided to heck with that and like move to Tucson.

SPEAKER_02: 12:58

I love Tucson. I uh I went and judged a new venture challenge down there at the university, and I was so amazed by all the art and just the the local taco shops and margaritas. I really enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_01: 13:13

Totally, totally. It's got great food, and everybody keeps telling me to go check out this and that place. I've got like a whole list of like restaurants, so definitely a good foodie place.

SPEAKER_02: 13:24

For our listeners, Camille is wearing that iHeart Tacos hat. Very perfect for the current conversation. Camille, where are you really originally from?

SPEAKER_01: 13:36

Yeah, I'm uh born and raised uh Oklahoman. So I uh yeah, I grew up in a bunch of small towns in Oklahoma, and our dad was a school superintendent, so um I had to be on my best behavior because he was the one in charge. Um, but yeah, I had a I had a great childhood. My parents are wonderful and um just really down-to-earth people, and um and yeah, and in terms of like uh no, like how did I get into running? Like all my background. Yeah, yeah. I've told it told it a few times. Um, but yeah, I grew up in small towns in Oklahoma, and um my my earliest memories of running was we lived in a place called Guthrie, Oklahoma, that is just north of Oklahoma City. And um, we lived out in the country, and um we had all these wheat fields around our house, and I was like so excited about all the wildlife around there, and I just remember running around the wheat fields like chasing like rabbits and snakes, and I even made my own like bow and arrow set because I had like seen a snake and I thought I was gonna like go out and try to hunt hunt for a snake with my bow and arrow. Um, and and yeah, my dad, my dad likes to tell the story about how he came home from work one day and I came running out of the field, and he's like, What are you doing? And I told him I was chasing a rabbit. So uh so yeah, my parents definitely have memories like that. And um, but yeah, I I actually my main sport growing up was basketball. My dad, my dad and my grandpa played basketball at Oklahoma State, and so I got their long arms and legs. I'm built just like my dad. Definitely, definitely. So so both my dad and my grandpa were point guards, so they were the ones that did the most running on the court, and then our mom was a swimmer, and so she she came before Title IX. So she was a very good swimmer, she was a very good golfer. Um, and I they you might have seen some of some of my Instagram videos. Um, I've shared videos of me playing with a basketball, like playing golf in the backyard. Um, and so so yeah, I got all these like love for sports from my parents. And um, but yeah, obviously running, running was part of basketball. So I had to, I had, and I was a point guard just like my dad. Um used to run all over the court um with a basketball and like trying to wear out whoever was guarding me.

SPEAKER_02: 16:13

Did you run in college?

SPEAKER_01: 16:15

Uh yeah, yeah. So I was a very accomplished high school runner. I had um, I was a three-time All-Sater in cross-country, a state champion three times on the track. Um, yeah, I think at one point I had like an undefeated streak of like 30-something races in a row in Oklahoma. And um, so I was pretty unstoppable for a period, but I ended up having a stress fracture in my foot a couple weeks before the state cross-country meet, my junior year, and that snapped my my winning streak. And so um, so yeah, I ended up having a lot of injuries. I I grew really, I'm I'm pretty tall, I'm 5'9. Um, and I grew like very rapidly in high school, and that caused like a lot of imbalance between my bones and my muscles, and I had a lot of stress fractures my last two years of high school. Oh wow. But I uh I made a comeback my senior year, and I ended up making all state and cross-country, and I started uh getting recruited by colleges, and I was recruited by the University of Tulsa, um Tulsa, Oklahoma, and so I uh I ended up going to Tulsa. But I ended up uh I continued to have injuries my freshman year of college, and so and then I redshirted my sophomore year, and then I after that I ended up getting a medical hardship, and so I had a very brief running, very brief career in in college. Um, but I met my husband after my freshman year, and he ended up being kind of like my my angel that like came into my life.

SPEAKER_00: 18:00

So your husband's your coach as well, right?

SPEAKER_01: 18:03

Yeah, yeah. So so after so I I was I basically became a recreational runner um because I had all these injuries, and I didn't think that my my body could like handle the stress of running, which is amazing to think about now because I've gone with it. Um, but I ended up, um, I met my husband and I was a recreational runner for a few years. And my husband ended up making, well, first off, my husband's Irish, and he got his US citizenship uh like in I think it was like early 2002. Um he had actually applied before 9-11, but after 9-11 happened, it delayed his application to get approved for his citizenship. So he didn't get approved until 2002. And then he ended up uh training because he was an elite runner himself. He ran at the University of Oklahoma. He was a six-time All-American, um, he was a very accomplished athlete himself, and so um, so I was his crew support for for a couple years, helping him with his running career, and he ended up making the Olympic marathon trials in 2004. Wow. So I was a recreational runner. I was driving down from at the time, he he had actually uh he was a music teacher in Florida when we met, and he ended up quitting his job and he moved to Oklahoma, and he ended up living with my grandpa and took care of my grandpa for my grandpa's last couple of years because my grandpa needed a needed company, needed like a caretaker. And so um, so during that period, I was I was at the University of Tulsa. I would drive down on the weekends and drive with my husband on his long runs and hand him off bottles and fuel, and I was like studying my physiology textbooks and yeah, tell the listeners what you got your degree in.

SPEAKER_02: 20:03

I think it's pretty fascinating.

SPEAKER_01: 20:05

Yeah, yeah. So I have my bachelor's in exercise in sports science, and I have my master's in exercise in sports science, but because of my injuries that I had in high school and college, um, I took an interest in bone and exercise. And so I got I got started doing research as an undergrad with my advisor. Um, and it was like a match made in heaven. It was actually really cool. Like he ended up, uh, he was like a new professor at the university, and I had gone to my advisor and been like, hey, I want to get involved in research. And it's like, oh, well, we have this new professor who's wanting a new student. So I ended up being the very first, uh, they they call it the Tulsa Undergraduate Research Challenge at the University of Tulsa. I was the very first student from my major that got to be part of the TURC program with my professor. And so um it was really cool because I mean, at that time I was a recreational runner. I was really focused on my research, and I was doing a lot of like community service on campus. Um, and then my husband was the one that was the elite runner, and I was driving down the weekends, helping him with his career. And then we kind of had like this this turning point where Was there overlap where you ran together? Yeah, yeah. So I mean, there were there were moments where um where, yeah, I mean, we did we did train together sometimes, and um, and there was like the the turning point happened back in 2004 when we were up in so my husband made the Olympic marathon trials that year, and I was really inspired by my husband, and I was just like tagging along with him, and we went to go train up in Boulder, Colorado.

SPEAKER_00: 21:48

Oh, that's where we live.

SPEAKER_01: 21:50

Oh, you live in Boulder. Oh my gosh, that's awesome!

SPEAKER_02: 21:53

Yeah, that's so cool. Next time you're here here, we'll um we'll cook you some dinner.

SPEAKER_01: 21:59

Oh man, I would love to come over. Oh my gosh, I would love to come back to Boulder. I know that place. I've I've run all over that place. Let me tell you, I've read my foot all over Boulder.

SPEAKER_00: 22:12

Such a good place to run.

SPEAKER_01: 22:13

It's so awesome. In fact, when we when we were trying to think about where we wanted to live, um, Boulder was one of the places that I thought about. I was like, uh thought about Colorado Springs and Denver and Boulder, like all that. And we didn't ended up going to Tucson.

SPEAKER_00: 22:27

So uh I mean Tucson's great too.

SPEAKER_01: 22:30

Tucson. And you enjoy the flat, fast running, don't you? Yeah, yeah. So so it's funny because when um I I I actually got into a little bit of trail running when I was in college, and so I was talking about when we went to Boulder in 2004, and so the turning point happened where we went out running together one day and we started together, and I kept running. I my husband had gotten home and I kept running like further than him. And he didn't know at that point he wasn't coaching me yet, so he didn't know how much I was running that I was like doing like these like long runs and stuff, like going out on the trails, like exploring. And uh, and so he was kind of got curious. Like, he's like, wait a minute, you ran further than I did. Like he was the type that he was regimen, he would be like, I'm going out for a 70-minute run, you know, for 10 miles. I would be like, Oh, if I feel good, I'm gonna keep running because it's fun out here. The trails are beautiful. So I kind of had this like endless mindset to myself because I mean, yeah, Baldur's amazing. Um, and so he started like inquiring about my training, and he was like, he was like blown away that at that time I'm like a recreational runner running for fun. I'm running 70 miles per week. Like, like, not even like training. Yeah, like I would just go out, you know. I was I at that time I wasn't even running every day. I was running like six days a week. And so I was going for, you know, 10 to 12 miles, sometimes more, like a day. And I kind of had this like endless mindset. Like my my husband was very strict in regimen. I would just, I was kind of like more like la la la la, let's go out running for two hours, you know, it's fun. Um, and so my husband was that was a turning point for my husband. He's like, okay, well, let's start giving you workouts and let's let's like race, let's train and race. And so he started giving me workouts, and um, that was pretty much how my adult running career took off from there. And what was your first ultra? Yeah, yeah. So I um so obviously, uh because my husband was a marathoner, I got into training for the marathon, and um, and so I ended up making the Olympic marathon trials three times. Um, I made it 2008, 2012, 2016. And I like, and the the interesting thing is because I like I'm talking about how my my master's degree was an exercise in sports science. And so I started up learning how to apply the science to training and thinking about um, you know, what helps bone to um bone health and the mechanics of bone health. And I started applying those concepts to my training and running twice a day and splitting up my training into short frequent bouts because I knew what worked for bone health and bone strength. And so um in my mind, like, okay, I've just got to get out and run every day, twice a day. And I mean, that was what my husband approved of as well. But the the interesting thing is I was able to handle a lot more volume than my husband could. My husband kept his volume a little bit lower, whereas I found over time that I could consistently train and run over 100, 140, 150 miles per week. And it seemed oh my god. And uh, I know it was it was like kind of mind blowing. But um, but but yeah, I mean, here I here I'd gone from being injured when I was, you know, an undergrad. And I used to like push the pace and the intensity really, really hard. And I ended up slowing down the pace and breaking up my training into short frequent bouts rather than like long, single, hard bouts. And so I ended up just finding a method that worked really, really well for me, and I was able to thrive as a marathoner for many years. And um, so you're asking about the turning point, how did I get into ultra ready? Um, so I was actually um running a lot of marathons um back in uh 2011, and I had um, I think I ran like I think like seven marathons or something. Like I qualified for the Olympic marathon trials seven times, seven marathons, which at that time, like I mean, everybody's trying to qualify with like just one, and I qualified like seven times. Um, and so I went to the New York City marathon, and the um the elite coordinator at New York City uh started talking to me about ultra running. And he kind of planted that seed, and that's funny. So yeah. Exactly. And uh and I mean, yeah, there were there were kind of moments over the years where um uh like I actually went and ran a half marathon back in 2006 and it was up in Washington, and there was at one point I got lost during the race, and I turned around and I asked the guy behind me, I was like, which way do I turn? And he's like, Oh, turn left. And that guy that told me to turn left was Scott Jurik. Oh so he caught up to me and then he eventually got ahead of me and ended up beating me. And um, and then after the after the race, um somebody was telling me, Oh, hey, you got beat by Scott Jurik. And I was like, Who is that?

SPEAKER_03: 28:13

Who's Scott Jurik?

SPEAKER_01: 28:14

Who's that guy? And I think he'd like at that point, he probably won like uh Western States, like, I don't know, six times.

SPEAKER_00: 28:22

Yeah, this is probably in the middle of his reign, right?

SPEAKER_01: 28:26

I think that was like towards like, yeah, when he was like, yeah, kind of towards the end. Um and so, so yeah, I actually got home after that race and had to Google like who is Scott Jurik, and I looked up Western States, and like that was the very first time I'd heard about Western states. And I remember talking about like heat training and like all these things that were like really foreign to me as a marathon. Well, at that point I hadn't run a marathon, I only run halves. But uh, but yeah, it was kind of like that was like the turning point where I learned about Scott Jurik. Scott Jurick was like one of the first ultra runners I learned about, learned about Western states. Um, I had a book called Lore of Running that's by yeah, it's a great like South African three, three-inch book, you know, full of science. That um is a book that my dad got me in high school as my first running book. Um, and that book talked all about the comrades marathon. I think it maybe mentioned about Ann Trayson, like uh Bruce Fordyce, like all these like ultra-running legends. And so I knew about comrades, I knew about Western States, I knew about Scott Jurik, I knew about Ann Tracen. So those were kind of like that was like my knowledge of ultra running.

SPEAKER_02: 29:39

Who did you look up to as you got into the sport?

SPEAKER_01: 29:42

Uh who did I look up to? I think um so I learned about ultra running from the elite coordinator, and I think 2000 2012 was the first year that I had followed Western States and learned about I run far and Ella Green was. uh set the course record that year and I remember following like at that time we used to follow Twitter for like updates like that was great yeah so Ellie Greenwood was the the very first like legend that I learned about and I think uh that year also uh Timothy Olsen I think maybe he set the course record that year um it was a cool it was a cool year so I uh and I didn't know that I had like no context about Western stage just that Ellie Greenwood and Timothy Olsen were like won the race and um and I think I got I got the um I was that summer I ended up going to Boulder to train and I lived with one of my sponsors he had a house near near Pearl Street which was an awesome location for it was really awesome. I loved it got to got to hang out with him downtown. He was just like to the on the north side and um used to go eat at like every single sushi place that was around there. But he he had the uh he had gotten the the DVD for the movie Unbreakable and this was like around when it got released like 2011 2012? 2011 2012 something like that. So I ended up watching the documentary I like couldn't process what they were doing the documentary was just so like foreign to me. It's so fun to go back and re-watch that now oh my gosh like I've rewatched it a couple times over the years but now it really it's really good like and and it's just so like old school like I mean just they're just so like careless like just kind of free like just cooking his meal at like you know at a campsite in top you know around or Olympic Valley. Yeah I mean they're just so like it just it was it seemed like such a different time for the sport is so young in that movie.

SPEAKER_00: 32:00

Oh he's right that's like a baby he's like a babe he is like a baby and he can run the mountains like and he was like holding back because he didn't want to run alone he was just like ah I'd rather run with people so I think I'm gonna I think I'm gonna I think I'm gonna stay with people.

SPEAKER_01: 32:15

Oh my gosh it's so wild to to watch now and and just the fact that Killian is still in the sport oh and and he's still crushing it and he's doing even better.

SPEAKER_00: 32:26

I mean he's been like he was like breaking records then he's still breaking records and and I've really gone in a direction of like being like uniquely Killian you know like he doesn't do what everyone else does right you know he started brand he started his brand that tries to emulate his values he's out here being like you know what I think I want to travel to the US so I'll just run all of the mountains right like you know very Killian things but I just love to see how he's you know he's not just going back and doing everything he did as a kid or or revisiting things he's he's he's uh he's living his his life as best he can he's still an incredible athlete doing it like he will go do his own like projects you know like going to Colorado and hitting like every 14er and like cycling and doing all that and but then he'll go back to like Sierra Zanal or something and like win it.

SPEAKER_01: 33:22

Like I mean he's he's just so like versatile.

SPEAKER_00: 33:25

So versatile. Yeah and I I don't know if we've ever seen anybody like that it's crazy.

SPEAKER_01: 33:30

Yeah and I like I personally loved when he tried a 24 hour race I think it was back in 2020.

SPEAKER_00: 33:38

Oh I don't remember this.

SPEAKER_01: 33:39

Okay. Okay yeah because at that time like I like I'd set the world record back in 2019 and this is during the pandemic when people were kind of like staging their own events with like only a couple people and he ended up like they ended up like televising it and had a 24 hour track race and I don't remember where the location was but it was cold. It was cold and I remember watching it and thinking oh my gosh I don't know how this is gonna go because I think the location's like a little bit too cold for a 24 hour race but it was still cool. It was an awesome concept that he was even trying because he is obviously meant to go vertical and he was like doing a flat race and you can even see like watching him on the video that um like he's so he's probably so used to like leaning into a mountain like he's like his mechanic his mechanics are optimized for mountain running and and so for him to be on flat was probably like a little weird but it was still like cool to see him do it. And I yeah like I would love to see him do more road stuff like even like try like comrades or sparthlon like I mean just why not you know he's he could do whatever he wants like it's cool yeah it's cool Camille like you had these runners to look up to how does it feel to be a runner that people and women in this sport look up to yeah I mean I'm I'm still so down to earth like I when I go hang out at races like I've been to the they just had the Tunnel Hill 100 and um and I mean like I go have breakfast with people you know I hang out at the finish line I'm out running on the course like giving high fives like people know me as just like a down to earth person and it's really weird for me to like also realize like you know I'm I'm famous like I'm famous I do because I don't really feel I don't feel that way like I still feel like I'm just like the hometown girl from Oklahoma City.

SPEAKER_02: 35:45

Like I don't really have paved the way for women to do more in this sport and we need someone who paved that way first and you you have done that. Well thank you more than just fame.

SPEAKER_01: 36:03

It is more than fame yeah I um I mean when I when I did some of the things that I did at the beginning of my career like I mean it was a like it was really hard to process and I didn't even know I actually didn't even know when I set some of my records like I think I set my first record that I broke by Ann Traceon was back in 2015. I didn't even know I had set I didn't even really know who Anne Trayson was um in fact this is this is a great story that I've told it a couple times before but I had run the Mad City 100K and um up in Madison Wisconsin and so um I was at that time I was still working full time so I worked in bone research at the University of Oklahoma Health Science Center. And so I was driving to work on a Monday and the race director called me and I remember the sun coming in my eyes and the race directors called me he was thrilled he was thrilled because I had broken a record by Ann Trayson it was the championship record in the US that had stood for I don't know 25 years or something like that. And so when I got to work I had to Google who is Anne Trayson. I had read about her in the book Born to Run like I don't know many years before that but I didn't really like know what she had achieved. And so um that was kind of this light bulb moment of like oh my gosh I broke a record by Ann Trace and that's kind of a big deal. And so at that time like it the year before that I had been thinking about retiring from competitive running because I had already done so much as a marathoner. I'd already made the Olympic marathon trials three times like I I was pretty much done. I did not I like mentally spent like burnt out mentally like I was really done with the marathon. I was kind of done with running and I kind of had this like moment of like well let's try some ultra running because I I had tried I'd run my first ultra back in 2013 um after I was talking about 2012 I'd like kind of followed Western states I ran my first ultra ended up being two oceans in 2013 but um I kind of said well I've got in South Africa and so um so I kind of had this moment of like well I'm gonna try it again and let's I'm gonna go further and I'm gonna see how this goes and so I ended up running the 100k broke a record by Ann Tracy and the race director was thrilled um and it was kind of like a star was born like oh my gosh like what do I do with this um and then I ended up going to the world championship and won won my first uh won the 100k world title I set the 50 mile world best in October and then in December I went and won the 50k world world championship so like in my first year like I had just like exploded and it was just very very overwhelming because at the I was still working full time I had no I had no idea like I was in my mid 30s like full time job like I had a serious job and I like it just hadn't dawned on me that like oh my gosh like what do I do with this now and I'm creating I'm creating history I'm creating history didn't know what to do with my running career and so yeah it was a very it was ended up like you would think it'd be like the best thing to happen to me but like the following year it was really really challenging um because I I was just overwhelmed. I was really really overwhelmed and I had to get my husband had to step in and start supporting me and um and I had an agent at the time because I got an agent to like help guide me like professionally because I was just getting like bombarded by like so much that I had never like dealt with and um and I ended up having to fire my first agent because I had gotten into a place where I was like emotionally like broken down and didn't feel like he was the right person to support me. And I ended up getting a different agent um who happened to be the same agent for Jim Walmsley who I who had been on the 100k world team with me and Jim had recommended um my agent and so um so yeah I like and you know this is 2016 so this is kind of still when the sport really hadn't like professionalized like grown.

SPEAKER_00: 40:34

I mean it's professionalized so much since COVID.

SPEAKER_01: 40:37

It's so it's like just exploded but we but what we were doing back then was really like pretty revolutionary in terms of like uh sponsorships and marketing and it was because we um we we had an agent we had an agent that managed um Hayden and Jim and me and we were really we were kind of the first we were kind of like the guinea pigs for the the whole like developing um the sponsorship to where it is now for athletes being supported um and it yeah I mean that was I I think about like what we were doing back then and like where the sport has gotten now and I I think that I think now it's like almost like expected that what we developed back in 2016 having like structured contracts being able to be a full-time athlete that now like so many more athletes are able to do that. So yeah I that's kind of one of my things that like I you know I'm kind of an unsung hero in terms of like um the professionalization of the sport I mean not only what I did achievement wise and I knew like when I got into the sport because I knew what I was experiencing I knew how difficult it was for me being a woman and the how I had to get an agent to go to bat for me to get me what I deserve because I had already achieved so much just in my first year that I had to have somebody that was like hey this gal is legit she's breaking records by Anne Trace and she deserves the moon I deserve the moon you know you gotta have somebody that you were able to see that though and have that foresight I mean it would have been so easy to become overwhelmed with being full time at your job full time running it was difficult.

SPEAKER_02: 42:25

And then then how do you manage any incoming sponsors you could have just easily said I'll say yes to some no to some and not have a strategy about it. Yeah which would have changed things.

SPEAKER_01: 42:37

Yeah so I I mean and you know like looking back on it I could have said you know I'm just gonna continue to be a full-time like professional and not even worry about all the sponsorships and all the marketing and um but I still I still felt like I deserved that opportunity I mean just with what I was doing and and I knew that like my performances were impactful. I went into every race thinking you know it's not just about me but how I'm gonna change the sport how I'm gonna change the sport for women I went in with a chip on my shoulder if I want to beat the men I want to show that women are strong and all training and that we deserve we deserve just you know the same equality the same equity um in terms of sponsorships and support and so so yeah I mean I for for me it was more about like putting the records out there knowing that knowing the greater impact that I was having not just my personal achievements but knowing how it like would elevate the sport um and and not even not even just for women but for everybody for for both men and women and I mean I'm sure that Jim felt the same I mean like we went in there thinking we're making history we're gonna prove ourselves we're gonna elevate the sport and so yeah I think I think a lot of what was happening in 2015 2016 you know has really paved the way for where the sport is now and um that's something that I've really I'm I am proud of I'm proud about that I'm proud to see like where the sport is it's in a much better place um than when I started where you know it's like most people had like full-time jobs and like the whole marketing thing was like really something you kind of did on the side so um yeah the sport is in the sport has grown so much the past 10 years. How did being sponsored in a let's say the moon capacity how did that change your the way you saw running the way you raced the way you thought of your career yeah I I mean I I can't I can't believe it all even happened like I said I I was a full-time professional in bone research and like like I went to school you know I went to school for what I what I did you know and I I loved my job I love my boss and um and yeah I mean I and it was just so many things I look back and I'm like oh my gosh I can't believe that was like eight years ago or 10 years ago and like and I look young I look young I'm just like oh my gosh like I and I it it's cool too because I'm I'm continuing to go and I'm continuing to evolve in my own ways and um and I like you know it's kind of like with Killian like he's evolved in his career. Exactly he's continued to level up and find ways to make make himself better and I feel the same way. I feel like I'm in my 40s now and I had gone like the just the way that I trained back then I think I overtrained um I made 150 miles it's overtraining I won't believe it not for a second I mean I've like I look back at some of the things I did and just the fact that I mean I was achieving I was achieving things that at the time I was still like I was like niggled. I was having like hip injuries I was doing things with a body that wasn't entirely perfect and the past couple years um and it was really kind of a turning point about 2021 when I started working with my dietitian and I had had um there were a couple things that happened during that year because I I'd had hamstring injuries for many years and it had made me like have to drop out of races and I had like a lot of setbacks like early in my career. It was a Western states right the hamstring yeah yeah there were I mean there were so many Western states I felt there's so many like years I mean there's just like I've had um I've only had one top 10 finish at Western states and I feel like I've had like the worst of luck in terms of the snow uh because I'm so I'm so light on my feet I'm just just the way I run and I mean part of the way I run is also you know what helps me to excel in the road ultras because I'm so light I'm really efficient I'm not expending a lot of energy but when you run on trawls you kind of have to like plant your feet a little bit more.

SPEAKER_00: 47:11

You need a little bit more traction.

SPEAKER_01: 47:13

Yeah and so I and I and I joke you know I have to like get my traw legs back because I'm usually transitioning from road to trawl and I I've had like the worst of luck in terms of like snow and ice at Western States so I it just has not worked out for me. It's like I did like a it's and I I've just learned like if I go back to western states and there's like way too much snow in the high country I am not doing I'm just like I will pass. It's helpful to know thyself let it go to the lottery I'm just like I you know it's just not meant for me.

SPEAKER_00: 47:47

Um and I think we just went off on a tangent here we were talking about I I think we were talking about injuries and like and also how you were uh I was evolving how you were evolving as a runner which I think is a great topic uh I would have asked the question but you and I'm really interested in this too because I I am also 43 and I feel like the last years are are now absolutely 100% so I um so yeah it was really a turning point back in 2021.

SPEAKER_01: 48:18

I'd had hamstring injuries for a couple years and I um I ended up um I bought a squat rack uh because I had I had worked at the PT up in let's see was it in Colorado Springs? I don't remember where I went or maybe it's up in Denver that was when we were still in Alamosa so I had gone to visit a uh I had a doctor that was up near Boulder that I'd seen and I saw like a guy that was like a PT uh I don't know I don't remember what his background was but he was the one that suggested I get a squat rack so that I could go heavy in the gym. Yep and that's what I do yeah okay okay so that was like life changing because it was like it just kind of straightened out that entire like kinetic chain in my body because I had developed so many like kinks and like my hips and my back and my just just all the way down my body and it was like it just kind of reset my entire body and made such a difference that I finally was able to get over my hamstring issues because of that squat rack and then um and then also my dietitian I started also the work you did on the squat rack. It wasn't just lying yeah yeah yeah that it was obviously it was the work I mean I got in totally totally the squat rack like made a huge huge difference I was finally able to get over my hamstring issues then I started working with my dietitian and I found I started doing a lot of blood work and found out that I was high iron. Oh and so I had been supplementing with iron because we lived in Alamosa for a couple years and um and I always used to get my ferritin checked and my ferridin was always like pretty normal and I hadn't got ferridin your ferritin is your the iron storage protein I think yeah yeah so I um but I hadn't gotten like a full iron panel which has like you kind of have to look at like the entirety of your blood and so my dietitian recommended I get a full iron panel and it showed that I actually had high iron and that ferret ferritin isn't necessarily the best like indicator like it's kind of just a raw like it's not like you kind of have to look at everything. And so I found out like I'd been over supplementing with iron. Oh and and then also the other thing is because as women get older and our periods start getting really kind of strange and my periods had been getting kind of weird that um if you're not because AMAs uh our periods like help to regulate our iron levels and so so when you're putting our body up some iron yeah it's actually a good thing like having a period your period like helps to regulate your iron and so my periods have been getting kind of weird around that time which was the indicator of perimenopause and um and so I ended up having to stop my iron supplement and I followed uh my dietitian doing something called the root cause protocol which is kind of this like quirky chemistry uh like you kind of I had to basically like cut out all the supplements that I was doing and I kind of followed this like natural like uh like kind of natural like supplement kind of stuff um it's kind of weird I can't I don't know how to explain it um just you just have to look up the root cause protocol this is interesting and um so I started following that and within like like the the the following month it was like life changing this is like 2021 um so during that summer like I started feeling like my energy coming back I hadn't been feeling great I think I'd run that was when I ran my my very first western states finish it took me a few few tries and a few years to finally get it um but I had finished in like 27 hours and that that was around the time when I had discovered I had high iron and I was actually having the same symptoms that like that you feel with like anemia but I had the opposite problem and it was making me feel really fatigued.

SPEAKER_02: 52:34

And so it literally felt like I was when I ran Westwood States it felt like I was running with a bear on my back it was really rough I but I got I got it done congratulations on getting that done Camille you're still making waves in the sport right now you've been working towards more inclusivity around neurodivergent runners and runners needing more accessibility I'd love to hear about your autism diagnosis. I know that you got it later in life which is common for a lot of women because we mask really well I'd love to hear about that the steps you took to get that diagnosis.

SPEAKER_01: 53:19

Wow well I'm I'm impressed that you like like maybe you know a little bit something about this. But yeah I like I have always known that I was different like literally my earliest memories from when I was two I just felt like an alien in the world and I remember thinking like is is it like this for everybody? Like I don't know I just felt like really out of place. And I the one there's so many like traits with being autistic that like finally make sense to me and one of them is that I have like a crystal clear crystal clear memory of my life since I was two. I remember details about things that happened like when I was two and I didn't realize like not everybody can do not everybody has that ability but that's like one of my um things are just like imprinted in my mind from when I was like two or three years old like just crystal clear um but I and I always had like the ability to like I would dream and like predict the future and I didn't I didn't know how I did that and it's because of my I have very strong attention to details and pattern recognition. I I'm like being autistic I am like a human antenna and I pick up so much like sensory information that and and it's it can be like overwhelming because I'm picking up so much that I don't know what to do with it.

SPEAKER_00: 54:50

Music to my oh my gosh I can't go into a bar we went to we went to lunch the other day and there's just like this couple having a conversation at a table like two tables over oh yeah and uh and Miranda's like just having a good time whatever and I'm like oh my god and she just looks at me and I'm like oh it's just what that guy said two tables over I just this inane conversation I can't not listen to it like it's it's so it's like a curse that you can see at all.

SPEAKER_01: 55:20

I pick up everything I can I I am hyperlexic and so when I learned to read in the first grade it wasn't just like like just reading for fun we had a reading contest and I read 170 books in a month. Oh my gosh like I could read pages and it's like imprinted I was reading a lot I was reading a lot and I and I'm somebody that like I pick up words and numbers and it's like imprinted in my brain and I can remember like large quantities of information.

SPEAKER_00: 55:56

You would check in at an Airbnb and then like you remember the door code and no one else remembers it.

SPEAKER_01: 56:02

Oh yeah I mean there's there's like I used to ride I used to ride around the neighborhood on my bike with a dictionary because I was obsessed with like reading about words that were like in my head and um and I just like I mean who does that like I'm in first grade and I'm like I mean I just I had such an obsession with books and I I didn't just read like children's books. I read medical books I read physiology textbooks and I'm in like second grade and my my dad because my dad um had like my dad was a science teacher at one point and um and he had like like a whole like bookshelf like medical books physiology kinesiology like type books and I'm reading this stuff like picking up the pictures the words and well all this time I'm autistic and I don't know it and I don't know I just thought well you know I've just got like this like superhuman abilities um and there were so many things that now like I reflect back on my life like I used to get like stomach issues a lot when I was a girl I didn't feel comfortable in the classroom I always could not wait to get outside at recess because it just made me feel so uncomfortable being in the classroom with all the kids all the like noise the people like it just overwhelmed me. I couldn't wait to get outside I love to run and play play at recess. And so so yeah so uh so when I the in terms of like how I made that di like how I made that connection was um when I ran my six day race last year um the further six day event and it finally like um I was so like overwhelmed by all the people that we had our own um we had our own like places I don't know what you what you call it they were kind of like these trailer house type things um I had a crew with like seven people there were media there was medical physiology f physiologist and I think it was by like day three three or four where there was a point where my husband knowing me had to just shut everybody out because he knows me and knows that I was feeling like overwhelmed. I was literally I literally felt like I was melting like a piece of butter um I was just so overwhelming in terms of like the sensory overload that I was feeling and how it was breaking me down and um and then having like bladder issues and gut issues.

SPEAKER_00: 58:33

And um it's and at this time you're you're running you're attempting to beat the the overall six-day world record so you have a lot of pressure on yourself as well.

SPEAKER_01: 58:43

Yeah so I'm the type of person I can hyper focus I can push through sleep deprivation I have a lot of like unique uh traits that I know now are because I'm autistic um and I like I also think like genetic genetically like I have a lot of like unique characteristics I got from my parents and so um so yeah after the race like I think it was like the following month was like autism awareness month and I my husband and I had said like for years we're like we think I'm autistic there's just so many on a if you spent a day with me if you spent a week with me you would be like okay she's definitely an oddball like you would know you would know um and so so I I ended up like um we ended up going back to Oklahoma and one of my good friends we had lunch with her and she had been talking about her daughter had been diagnosed as autistic and I told her hey I've been reading up I think I'm autistic and she was like hey well you should take like some questionnaires and just see like you know see if you like score high. So literally the very first test I took I scored like really high it said I was probably autistic um I took like every single test I could find online and like you gotta do it all. I had to do like everything Tests. I scored high on every single test I took. And it was like, oh my gosh. Like, I like, and so I ended up asking my sports psychologist, I was like, well, how do I get a proper diagnosis? And she was like, Well, find a psychologist that's a specialist in adult female neurodivergence. And so I ended up going through the formal diagnosis. And um, and she ended up diagnosing me as being both autistic and ADHD. And I think I think that I present myself as being more ADHD when all this, which probably like compensates for being autistic. The autistic part of me is like sensory overload, like getting fatigued and tired from like, you know, from just trying to process so much. Um, and so I think that like I think I had been starting to like kind of break down because I my running career was just like overwhelming. I mean, I had so many sponsors, I had so much, like, I had so many demands. I was traveling all the time. Um, like just overwhelming. And my my husband manages and part of being autistic is that you have required support. And so my husband is basically my support person who manages like communication and emails and everything like online because I get so overwhelmed by all the emails and the communication. I mean, it's just like I I don't manage this stuff, I just don't. It's just too much for me. And I have to focus on my running, and my husband understands that, and so he ends up being kind of more the filter uh to manage so much of my running career. Um, so so yes, I ended up getting I got my diagnosis and it finally like made sense of my entire life and all these like weird things about me. Um, not only the superpowers, but also the ways that you know it's a disability. I'm disabled. It's hard for people to process that I am a superhuman who does these amazing things as an athlete, but I'm also disabled. And I I can ask for accommodations. Like that is like an amazing concept to me. Like all this time I could have been asking for support all this time that I really needed support, just going back to elementary school and thinking about the ways that I struggled as a kid in school and how I needed support. That um, and I mean it's really like it's made me want to be an advocate, just knowing how I struggled as a kid, how I want to be a mentor, how I need to speak out and to instill confidence in other people who are neurodivergent, who have hidden disabilities, to for them to advocate for themselves, for them to know that they can advocate for themselves, that they can get support that they need. And so I'm still like trying to figure out how to explore all of that because this is new to me. Like, you know, what is like a reasonable accommodation as an athlete, you know, going to the world championship. Um, I've set many world records, I've been to many world championships, I know the rules. I I I mean, I if anybody knows like how to like um you know, how to like how to figure out like how to be accommodated as an athlete that's uh disabled. Um and so yeah, I've been trying to work with the governing bodies to figure all that out.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:32

So and what would um like what advice would you give to a race director about how they can make their races more accessible?

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:41

That's a great question. So I ended up uh this past summer, I was registered for the Vermont 100, and they are a very inclusive uh inclusive event, which was it was so cool because I'd always wanted to do the Vermont. And when I went to go contact the race director, she was so like supportive and talked about how they have all these disability categories for their race so that you can enter if you have a disability. They actually had created a neurodevelopmental disability category, um, which I was like, oh my gosh, that's incredible. Like, like just to be seen, to like to have a category. And it's such an easy thing to do. I mean, it doesn't cost anything just to have all these like ask the question, right? Yeah, just to have these disability categories like as part of your entry. Um, you know, it just like helps you to feel seen and to to like be acknowledged and supported by a race. Um, and then I ended up serving, I was on a panel with other disabled athletes that were running the event, and um, and it was really cool for me to like listen to their lived experiences of you know their disabilities and like how they like self-accommodate and how the event can accommodate. And the race director was uh part part of the panel, and so she was like asking, you know, questions like, oh, well, what can we do, you know, to help you? Um I mean, just just to be asked, you know, how can we help you? How can we communicate? I'm somebody that like I like to know like the details about an event, um, like you know, what what's at an aid station, you know, how are they, all the like the details of things. Um, you know, and so the the race director will be a very good thing.

SPEAKER_00: 1:05:28

Also helps them know what know what to expect.

SPEAKER_01: 1:05:30

Yeah, to know what to expect.

SPEAKER_00: 1:05:31

That can be that can be a common thing. I don't know, absolutely, but it can be a thing, right?

SPEAKER_01: 1:05:36

Yeah, to know what to expect. Um, and I and I and that's something I've kind of like learned over the years, like that um just knowing what to expect, like I'm somebody that asks a lot of clarifying questions. I don't mean to like like be like that's another thing about it's just being misunderstood as a neurodivergent person. I'm somebody that's very persistent. I'll ask like question after question. I'm really trying trying not to like annoy anybody. I just need like clarity so I can like process things because I get so there's just so much like information. I'm just trying to like process, and I didn't realize like that, you know, this is part of being autistic, that like you know, this is not a neurotypical thing. And so um, and in fact, I ended up adding on my emails, um, and I think I I was communicating with you guys through my business email, not my personal email, but on my personal email, I have a I have a disclaimer at the bottom of my emails, um, talking about how I'm neuro I'm neurodivergent, um, and that my communication style may be different from expected, um, that I appreciate your understanding. Um and so Well it makes a lot of sense, yeah. Yeah, like I not only do I like want to bring, I'm not afraid to talk about being neurodivergent. I feel like I need to talk about it. I need to bring awareness, uh different, uh just bring awareness about it and bring awareness about differences and communication style. And and so um, so yeah, adding that like little part on the bottom of my emails is kind of like my way of like advocating for nerd neurodiversity. Um you mentioned sorry interrupting. Oh go ahead, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00: 1:07:20

Uh you mentioned uh the the accommodations. Um recently at the at the world championship, there was you were asked you asked for some accommodations, they didn't get back to you, and you didn't end up running the world championship. And um I guess I I don't really I I have a kind of a comment about that. I think it's very important for you as such a high-profile athlete, as a high-profile neurodivergent athlete being open about it, to pave the way for somebody. Let's say there's somebody who it feels somewhat odd, feels somewhat out of place, who who may be neurodivergent, who doesn't have a track record like you do, who is coming to their first world championship or their first uh IAU event. And and you know, they wouldn't feel capable of asking for some of these accommodations. So I I know there's a lot of people talking about that these days, and I just think it's important that that you are pushing to expand the sport and at the regulatory, like these world championship levels. So I don't know.

SPEAKER_01: 1:08:26

Yeah, and I I think that that was part of you know, like they hadn't been asked. They hadn't been asked before, they hadn't nobody had had the like courage to ask. They didn't know what to do about it. Um, and they and I had made my request in June, and I had followed up several times with USATF. I mean, like nobody had asked, nobody knew what to do with this. So I'm really kind of at the like the beginning of you know, being a disabled athlete. It's difficult for for them to understand because I don't have a physical, I well, I do, I mean, I'm I'm I have a hidden disability. And so they look at me and they're like, well, she did it, she she fit in, she did she won world titles in the past, she can fit in and do it again, but that fitting in is what I have already done my entire life of like trying to get by as a disabled athlete, trying to fit in while also not being supported and accommodated as I should be should have been. And so, like now that I'm like asking those questions and that it's required by law in the US, our governing bodies have to protect us from harm, that they have a duty of care to ensure our safety and well-being. And so, not only was I asking in terms of um, I was not only asking for disability accommodations, but also there were safety issues involved that I've had to like keep confidential that were part of the request. And so, me knowing the rules, because I've obviously done world championships before, I know that you can receive assistance like within the the aid stations, which is uh, I don't know, I think it's like 200 meters or something like that, where they have like tents set up. And so I was trying to ask to receive support like in an environment within those the refreshment stations um that was away from the US team tent, which has caused me a lot of stress in the past. I don't feel well being in small enclosed spaces.

SPEAKER_02: 1:10:34

That's what I was just gonna ask you. Like, how does that impact your performance if you didn't have these accommodations?

SPEAKER_01: 1:10:41

I like I wasn't going to force myself to be in that environment. Like what they were gonna do is they were gonna section, and and the the the weird thing is they hadn't asked me, like they had just said, okay, this is what we're gonna do. And like without like, you know, collaboration with me, and they they did this like the week before the race. Like I finally like got, I'd been like falling up, and then they finally like got back to me, and they're like, Well, we're gonna section off part of the tent for you. And I don't feel well in small enclosed spaces. I wasn't gonna force myself to fit into that environment, and so I I and I was like a time crunch. It was like, so I ended up coming back to them and tell them, hey, you know, could I utilize like the there's like an open tent, there's the medical station, there's the local organizing has their own like tables that they set up. And these are like spaces that would be like kind of more open, like have less people, like just be like just from my experience, you know, going to world championships, I thought they would be better environments for for me to like kind of have like some quiet space. And I mean, like, even you know, it's becoming more common to have like sensory rooms at like airports and like different different places. Um, I just felt like I needed to have like some space, like away from that, um, to help me perform my best, you know, if I needed to like lay down or I needed to to set up my stuff and not be like so overwhelmed by like all the people around the team tents. So I felt like, and I had vetted my concerns with legal counsel, I worked with the USOPC ombudsman. I'm trying to work with like the professionals um in all of this. And um, and yeah, the in terms of like, you know, everything that like happened, um I it just wasn't handled properly by the uh the team managers that I was working directly with USATF and the national office and legal counsel to address my situation. And and I had told, I had told the USATF and the IAU that like I wasn't going to sign the statement of conditions because I wasn't gonna force myself to be in that environment and to do that unless my my support needs were being met. And so, because I didn't sign the statement of conditions, I I wasn't forced to formally withdraw. And so, and I told the USATF national office that I wasn't gonna sign it, and so the the team managers, I guess, hadn't been communicating with the national office. I mean, I don't know what happened, but that's some sort of breakdown of communication.

SPEAKER_00: 1:13:21

Were weren't they like pleading to get in contact with you through the through Instagram?

SPEAKER_01: 1:13:26

Well, they like I don't understand, I don't understand why they why they felt the need to like go air out, like I mean, this is a private situation that I'm trying to address with uh directly with the national office. And I had I had told them because uh they're they're the professionals, the the the people that are the team managers are just volunteers. And so I'm working directly with the national office and legal counsel, and I told them that I'm not gonna sign this. And so the the team the team managers were like aired it out to their friends, like we're not hearing back from her, like it just wasn't handled properly.

SPEAKER_02: 1:14:03

And I mean it that ended up harming me that that they ended up very challenging being a trailblazer like this, advocating for yourself, and it's disappointing that you don't have all the backing to support you in this advocacy work. You don't have the whole team behind you, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01: 1:14:22

Like, and and I like I said, there there's safety issues, there's reasons why I was handling everything the way I was, because I was trying to like protect myself um to handle like the proper procedures for for uh for doing all this, um, because I there's like safety concerns also involved. And um, so yeah, I mean I was just following like legal counsel and like what they advised, and um they they said because I I mean I didn't uh that they always had the right to replace me, that they there's just like a lot of misinformation, and that's something that I've had to deal with um being you know a standout athlete, is that I people try to create controversy and drama out of things that are not controversial, and that that it really kind of sucks. Like it really sucks that that people spread misinformation and hearsay about me, like and how do I address that? Because that ends up hurting my reputation. And I'm somebody that always tries to handle things like respectfully and properly through through like legal channels and with the governing bodies, and I tend to be like retaliated against because I'm handling things properly, and other people are like, oh, well, we're gonna like create, we're gonna create drama, we're gonna like air out like whatever, and like why don't people like come directly to me like to get clarity and the truth and everything? And so um, so yeah, I've had to deal with like that during my career. There's been several situations where it's weird.

SPEAKER_00: 1:15:55

It's an interesting side effect from professionalization, right? Because like if you look at other sports, like the way Americans treat our sports icons, like we do we do elevate them on a pedestal, and then as soon as they do something slightly bad, we we we we uh gang up on them and we bring them down and we like to see our stars fall in the US, create stars, and we like to see them fall. So, like in essence, it it is somewhat of a side effect, right? Of all the professionalization that has happened in the sport in the last 10 years, has elevated the status of our great runners, and but at the same time, it's also provided a lot more people, a lot more eyes, a lot more um you know, attention towards uh things, and that creates drama inevitably, in a at least in American society, I think.

SPEAKER_02: 1:16:45

How have you navigated that, Camille, in your personal life, all the controversy and the drama? Have you been able to shut it out?

SPEAKER_01: 1:16:54

Well, so yeah, I mean, I I ended up meeting with a mental health professional for the first time back in 2023, and I talked about this. I mean, I've gone through my entire career being like bullied and harassed and falsely accused of things. Like, and I'm somebody, I'm autistic, I am somebody that is accurate, I follow policies, I follow my contracts, I'm not somebody that's like doing things deviant. I'm a good person, I'm a kind person who does the right thing. I work through the governing bodies, I communicate with sponsors. If I have any sort of issue in terms of harassment, if somebody is going on Wikipedia and removing things from my bio, I've reported that to my sponsors and they know. And so I've had so many things during my career. I mean, it would just blow people's minds of all the things where I've been falsely accused, and I'm not gonna compromise my running career, I'm not gonna be doing like deviant things. Um, and so that is like, and that was one of the reasons why my husband had to step in back in 2016 because I was being really badly bullied and harassed when I got into the sport, and it broke me down. I didn't know what to do because I I had never experienced this when I was a marathoner, um, that everybody seemed like really supportive when I was a marathoner. And it was almost like I got into ultra running. It was like a completely different uh community and culture. Everybody seems to kind of be in each other's business. I don't know. I don't know how to explain it. It was just so weird to get into the sport and to deal with harassment and bullying and um like jealousy, just like professional jealousy. Um, and so yeah, my my husband's had to protect and defend me in a lot of ways. And um, and I mean, I work with the governing bodies. There's situations that have happened in the past that I've had to report people, and you know, even with the most recent drama and the people behind that, that they're that there's safety issues because of incidents that have happened in the past and how they are retaliating against me and getting their friends to retaliate and bully. And so, like, and people actually believe that people actually believe what they read as being true, and um and without, yeah, and I'm and I'm I'm like, I am not a bad person. I'm a good person who stands up for the sport, the integrity of the sport. I if somebody is cheating or lying or stealing, I'm somebody who reports that d directly to you know whoever, you know, in the governing body. Um, and so there's been situations over the years where I've had to report in good faith that something is happening, but there's also been situations where people have like falsely reported me to the governing bodies and made accusations, and that just blows my mind. I've never been, I've never done anything criminal. I mean, literally the only thing I've ever done in my life was a speeding ticket when I was 16 and it was an accident.

SPEAKER_02: 1:20:14

Um I think I got one the other day, Camille. It wasn't my first though.

SPEAKER_01: 1:20:26

Oh man. I mean, I like I've I'm a good person who has lived a lifetime of integrity, and it has definitely been challenging. I mean, that's been a side effect of being a professional athlete is being under a uh microscope. Yep. I'm under a microscope. People will, and and also the fact that I'm neurodivergent, so I'm kind of zany. I'm just a character, I'm like a different person, and people will take anything I say or do and like mischaracterize or twist it to mean something else. And that just like blows my mind because I feel like I speak like very bluntly and clearly, and I want to be free to be myself and to express myself in my own ways and to be accepted, you know, for being my zany self that likes to sing and dance and play the piano and like do things for fun.

SPEAKER_02: 1:21:20

Um, but yeah, it's like it's like you're in good company on running with problems, Camille. Thank you. We are coming up on our time together. Yeah, sorry, but we I don't I don't know how much time we were having. No apologies at all. This is all great.

SPEAKER_00: 1:21:38

We tend to keep it a tight around an hour respect.

SPEAKER_02: 1:21:41

Okay, we want to respect your time. We know you're uh busy and um have lots of going on. But we like to end our podcast by asking our guest, you, to share a piece of unsolicited advice with the world and our listeners.

unknown: 1:21:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:21:58

It doesn't have to be running.

SPEAKER_01: 1:22:00

I think I think the biggest thing that I've learned since since learning that I'm autistic ADHD is to to be yourself, to be your authentic self, and to not worry like what age you are. I mean, I'm 43 and I'm dressing like a colorful unicorn, and I'm just like, I've like got my own style. I'm like learning how to like embrace myself as just being my own unique self and sharing, sharing like creative things about myself to the world that are non-running related. Um and I and I think that that's empowering. Like I know that like I'm helping to empower other people that if they like to dance and sing and like have a good time, like you know, share that with the share your joy with the world, share your color with the world. And um, and yeah, I mean, I that's really the biggest thing that I've learned since um learning that I'm autistic ADHD.

SPEAKER_02: 1:22:53

I love that.

SPEAKER_00: 1:22:54

Thank you, Camille. It's been great. Thanks to the listeners making it this far. Yeah. See you next time. Awesome. Thanks for having me.