SPEAKER_02: 0:10

Hello and welcome to Running with Problems. My name is John Eisen.

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And I'm Miranda Williamson.

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Running with Problems is a podcast about runners and the problems they inevitably face, such as the flu.

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The flu. Oh my god. I got killed this week.

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Astute runners will notice a change in Miranda's voice.

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Hopefully, it's not permanent.

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We we can hope. We're crossing our fingers.

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It's been worse. We put this off recording this intro because I could barely speak.

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Miranda's actually been down with the flu for like 10 days. It's it's a really bad one.

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This has been day 10. I don't work wish this on anyone. I've been like a zombie walking around this house. And it's been a series of symptoms progress progressing and getting worse or maybe different, but never better until really today.

SPEAKER_02: 1:02

Well, hopefully your voice uh will improve. How are you doing though?

SPEAKER_03: 1:09

I made my return to the land of the living today with a tiny three-mile run with you and the dog in our beautiful first snow of the year.

SPEAKER_02: 1:17

I mean, it was like seven inches of wet snow on the ground. Three miles felt like five.

SPEAKER_03: 1:23

It felt great. It felt great to be uh living. That's all the updates on me because I've been on death's door. But how are you doing, gorgeous?

SPEAKER_02: 1:32

I'm doing well. I've been running a lot, training, working, just seemingly I just very busy. I just wake up, I train, I go to work, I come home, I do sauna time, then I'm like working on side projects. It seems like there's not enough time in the day right now, but I'm making do, trying to fit in, PT, all that. Just the regular life, you know, life stuff, trying to make a podcast.

SPEAKER_03: 1:55

Boy, we sound cheery in this episode.

SPEAKER_02: 1:58

Well, it's you know, it's the dark time of year, right? It's that time of year where you come home and it's dark out. And I think that that time of year is just a little bit more somber and low-key. Yeah. And I have to reflect that.

SPEAKER_03: 2:11

Totally. Well, who have we got on the pod today?

SPEAKER_02: 2:15

Today we have my coach Mark Marzin, who is a coach with Golden Endurance, a running coach, certified running coach. He uh is also a he works with school programming as well. I'm not really a teacher, but like programming uh kids' schools. But in this interview, I I really enjoyed learning more about his history, his choice to like step away from partying and choose something healthier like running, and then escalating that by deciding I want to get better at running. So I'm gonna go after a running coaching certificate, right? So he got into coaching by uh just wanting to improve his own running, and now he teams up with Sammy and Gabe down at Golden Endurance, who I talk about a lot because I love all of them, love them so much. And uh he does a lot of their running coaching. If you guys are looking for a coach who's pretty laid back and uh but also very knowledgeable and fits things into nice programs, very personable and very uh like adjusting for your lifestyle. I think, I think uh I can't help but recommend Mark. I've we've been working together, I think in the podcast we talk about it, but I don't know, it's close to two years now, and I really enjoy working with him and I I want to keep working with him.

SPEAKER_03: 3:35

Also, y'all, this is a side note, but he looks so much younger than he is. Yeah, he looks amazing. I thought he was like, I don't know, late 20s, early 30s. I was like, this guy's young. And in our conversation, I was like, no, he's like my age, maybe a little older. Yeah, and he's lived a lot of life, which makes him really interesting, but he does not look it.

SPEAKER_02: 4:02

He came into the sport.

SPEAKER_03: 4:03

We'll post a picture.

SPEAKER_02: 4:05

Yeah, check out the Instagram at running with problems. Uh, he came into the sport as a mid-packer. I think he finishes his first hundred around, something like 32, 33 hours, which is like a faster mid-packer for a mountain hundred. I think it was the bear. I'm not really sure what the distribution of finish times is for the bear, but you know, 32, 33, it's it's mid-pack. It's pretty, it's very respectable. So, but then over his last uh 10 years of running hundreds and improving his overall body function, just sort of the process of getting better at running is a process of many years of constant work. You got to lay those bricks, as they say. Mark, in his last achievement, was he ran the jackpot ultras, which is a looped race, and he was able to finish in half the time of his first hundred miler. So he went all the way down to 15 hours and change uh half the time that it took him to run the bear uh over 10 years prior. So I think that's a really cool achievement, and it makes me think about like what other arbitrary project goals can you put on your your list? I I've been thinking a lot about arbitrary projects lately. We've got our last uh Skyline grid coming up. The the last run on the skyline for this month-by-month grid that I've done this year. Very look much looking forward to that. And then also thinking about projects next year. I'm not gonna spoil anything, but I've got ideas on things to run after Coca-Dona. Yeah, well, let's not get ahead of ourselves. Uh, Mark Marzen. Oh, you know, his last name, you know, is probably German. I haven't really asked him, but yeah, Matzen is uh the German word for March. It's also the German word for March beer, right? Matzen beer, uh, typically shortened to Matzen, or uh, you might see it on the shelves here as Marzen. It's brewed extremely similarly, almost the for some breweries, it's the exact same as Fest beer, which is served in for Oktoberfest in September. And so you have this interesting dynamic of German beer where they they brew the same beer once in the spring and once in the fall. They don't brew it year-round. I mean, they do now because you know the world is industrialized and globalized, but historically, they would all they would brew the same beer and they would call it Matzen in March, and they would call it Festbeer in September when Oktoberfest is, because that's that's how dates work. Anyway.

SPEAKER_03: 6:41

Okay, awesome. Well, I'm excited to have the listeners dive in. This was a fun episode.

SPEAKER_02: 6:47

Yeah, hope you guys enjoy it. If you got feedback for us, hit us up at podcast at runningwithproblems.run or DM us on Instagram at running with problems on Instagram. Uh, and Summit here is really hoping that you guys give us a five-star rating. He's looking at me. He's kind of disappointed we haven't had enough of them. So if you want to make Summit happy, you give us a five-star rating.

SPEAKER_03: 7:10

And we're we're really racking up the pods lately. So we have a lot in the queue that are really fun. Um, what else? We have a lot coming up.

SPEAKER_02: 7:20

I mean, I hope you guys enjoyed the Camille Heron episode. That one seems to be blowing up.

SPEAKER_03: 7:24

Yeah, that one was a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_02: 7:27

I mean, this year has been another epic year. Epic year for this podcast. Been an amazing time and you know, creative project to keep talking to interesting people. We have ideas on how to improve the podcast next year, how to change it. If you have ideas or thoughts, shoot it over to us. We'd love to hear it.

SPEAKER_03: 7:47

We're also pretty close and considering releasing more often. We'll keep you updated on that though.

SPEAKER_02: 7:54

Yeah, we got some ideas.

SPEAKER_03: 7:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 7:56

Without further ado, here's Mark Matson or Mark Mark Marzen, as we normally pronounce it. Coach for Golden Endurance. Check him out at goldenurance.com. And here he is.

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Enjoy.

SPEAKER_02: 8:17

Mark, welcome to the podcast. Hey, good to be here. So uh yeah, so we should just get this off the top. You're my coach. And uh we've been working together, what, I guess it's been like two years, year and a half?

SPEAKER_01: 8:34

Yeah, about two, a bit I mean, a bit over two years.

SPEAKER_02: 8:36

I guess, I guess next season will start third year.

SPEAKER_01: 8:40

Right, yep.

SPEAKER_02: 8:41

And how am I as a running coach client?

SPEAKER_01: 8:47

Um, you strike a good balance of being obsessive, but still being like a one of those soul runners, you know? Like uh treating it like a soul sport. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 8:59

I like that, a soul runner.

SPEAKER_02: 9:01

Yeah, yeah. More your uh Joe Grants than your Sage Canada's.

SPEAKER_01: 9:07

Right. Yes, yes. Like jump in the random things, but then we'll analyze your own data. Yeah. Comparing it to, you know, weeks prior and things like that too. So it's a fun mix. I like it.

SPEAKER_02: 9:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_03: 9:20

Mark, what was your first coach like? When did you get your first coach?

SPEAKER_01: 9:24

Um when I when did I have my own like, yeah, when did yeah. Um there there's been a few people have really helped me out along the way with running. Um I would say really, if I had to think about like who my first coach was in running, um, there was just a handful of older seasoned runners when I got into show running, right? And so this was still a time where coaching really wasn't a thing, you know.

SPEAKER_03: 9:57

Oh, so they were more like mentors.

SPEAKER_01: 9:59

Yeah, I mean, this was probably in the early um, let me think, maybe around 2010. And um, you know, there back then you'd go to, you know, I would just go to anybody who already ran a race that yeah, I heard about, you know, and thought that was the person who knew everything, right? It's just like you go to a guy who ran that race, and then you ask him, you know, every question you have, and you just take his advice no matter what, right? It's like there weren't there's a couple books out, but yeah, coaching wasn't really that much of a thing. So um it was really going out to these group runs, and um, there's still a time too where I feel like back then there was much more often a mix of older and younger runners, you know, just as part of the ingrained uh dynamic of trail running. And so you just kind of pick those people's brains, you know.

SPEAKER_03: 10:56

And um you remember some of their names? Yeah, I mean one we can give them a shout out.

SPEAKER_01: 11:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah. One guy in particular, Steve Knox. Um he I'm still good friends with him. He moved out to uh Florida, he lives in there now.

SPEAKER_03: 11:13

Oh, Florida, not a good place for trail running.

SPEAKER_01: 11:16

Yeah. But I still run into, you know, we still text and I'll still connect at races. I've seen him maybe once a year, ever since, you know, back then. And when I spent some time on the East Coast for a couple years, like somewhat recently, yeah, we were on like a the same trail running circuit. He would be out there crewing his buddy and pacing them, and yeah, you know, he's like it's probably mid-60s now.

SPEAKER_03: 11:42

So you'd pick his brain for advice, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 11:46

Yes, yes, yeah. And he's he'll he's the type of guy too who'll text me paragraphs and paragraphs of any race. You know, you have a question.

SPEAKER_03: 11:54

Oh my gosh, John has one of these. His name is John Clark.

SPEAKER_02: 11:59

Yes. Well, John's John Clark's been on the podcast.

SPEAKER_03: 12:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 12:02

Okay, I think I know it means we all have a friend like that. Yes, you need a friend like that in show running. You do. Uh yeah. I mean, mentors in the sport, like when you get in and you start running, you start discovering that there's more and more and more available. It really helps to have somebody or or a few people or a community. Shout out Jeff, who loves when we talk about community, uh, that can tell you what is out there and what is like uh what you can go for. I mean, and these days there's probably a little bit less of those people, or maybe they're just more sporadically based, but there's also just so much more races, so many more events, like what to do. What was it like in the early years when you were getting into the sport compared to now?

SPEAKER_01: 13:00

Yeah, um, I think the lack of information actually propelled people to be a little more community-based just because of you know out of necessity. You're right. It's like you had to. I I mean, I remember running um, you know, Green Mountain Lakewood for the first time, and it was difficult to find the full map of trails, you know, like and that's that's now like you know, you just look it up. Now there's an app. Yeah, there's a app, right? Um also you know, just stuff simple stuff like that we take for granted. Um whereas now I think you know it's has its trade-offs and some great things about too, where everything's so extremely accessible, right? It's like you could get in trailer all by yourself without even knowing somebody, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 13:54

Where your only friends are on a podcast.

SPEAKER_01: 13:55

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02: 13:57

Shout out to all of our friends.

SPEAKER_03: 13:59

Um GPS watches weren't a thing.

SPEAKER_01: 14:01

No, no, no, no, I had to get tired of it.

SPEAKER_02: 14:04

How did you prove to people that you ran?

SPEAKER_01: 14:06

Uh just went to work and really tired. Yeah, you went to work really tired and slowly skinnier. Um yeah, I mean it was yeah, it was it was interesting. Uh it's like um, yeah, GPS watches weren't a thing. Um, I remember hearing about Strava for the first time. Yeah. Somebody in Denver I knew, and that just seemed like the oddest thing to me ever, right? It's like people talking about running on your phone. Um and so I think there back then there was a lot more of a kind of mystique to it. You know, it's like, what what what am I getting myself into? And again, there's now that's that's obviously still there in ways. It's all I think I'll always be with Trail Running and these big distances. But now it's just you know, you look up the podcast, you Google real quick.

SPEAKER_02: 15:01

The discovery is so immediate. Yeah, right. You didn't like you weren't like running for a few years and then somebody told you about a Google group. You gotta you gotta get in to get it, and there's this great run they go on every year, but you won't you gotta be in the Google group or else Oh yeah, I had to get on like mailing lists to find out about group runs and things like that.

SPEAKER_03: 15:23

How did you what was your trajectory like to get into ultra running?

SPEAKER_01: 15:28

Yeah, so I I moved up to Denver, Colorado. Um and I was living from where? Yeah, so I was living down in Texas. Okay, which was not a good fit for me. Um various reasons. Um and you know, I was in my I guess it was early 20s, mid twenties, I guess. Um, and I my lifestyle was just why like just crazy, you know, going out all the time and just drinking a ton and um and just didn't wasn't sure what I was doing with myself. And so it just kind of came to a big crashing point, like by you know, at a certain point in Colorado, and um slowly started, you know, wanting to just get back some level of athleticism, you know. I mean, I grew up playing you know, sports and that whole deal.

SPEAKER_03: 16:28

And so the move to Denver was unrelated to running.

SPEAKER_01: 16:33

Yeah, yeah, it was. Yeah. I mean, I trained for my first ultra marathon running down to like along Colfax and back because I didn't know where else to go. And so I'd run into some interesting people early in the morning.

SPEAKER_02: 16:53

Colfax is a great place to meet. East Colfax, even worse.

SPEAKER_01: 16:58

On a weekend, yeah. Um so yeah, it wasn't it was very much totally brand new to me, no idea what I was doing. Um but yeah, I mean, then that just slowly built like it so often does, right? It was it became a couple miles a day, you know, long runs, and then I heard about like ultra marathons, you know. If I mean I'd done a marathon, but still ultra marathons are you know, I never met anybody who done them, yeah, had done one. It probably wasn't a huge scene at the time. Yeah, no, it wasn't. And um and so yeah, it became part of this whole process of me trying to like shift my life around. I signed up for 50 mile race and it was like, okay, this could be this could be a huge deal for me. Like it's probably not gonna work out, but you know, I have to do something different right now.

SPEAKER_03: 17:51

Which one?

SPEAKER_01: 17:52

It was this one-year race. Um, it was called Run for Aurora. Um, it was a it was like a year or two after that Aurora movie theater shooting.

SPEAKER_02: 18:03

Oh, remember the Batman? Yeah. Oh yeah. The history of mass shootings in Denver area.

SPEAKER_01: 18:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 18:13

We could have a whole podcast on that.

SPEAKER_01: 18:15

Yeah. Um so yeah, I think I just I saw a flyer for it in one of the some runner shop in Denver. And it was in Roxboro State Park, and you just did five loops, five ten mile loops. And yeah. Oh, and Roxboro is a little it's got some rocky trails. It does, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 18:38

That sounds brutal.

SPEAKER_01: 18:40

Yeah, yeah. Um was it were you um did you enjoy it? Mostly. You know, I mean, maybe I maybe the last two laps, yeah, everything started falling apart. Um it's still by far the worst recovery I had after a race after that. Um I like, yeah, could not walk for a couple days. Like I could I would get up my legs or just buckle. Um you know, because I was training on Colfax.

SPEAKER_04: 19:12

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 19:13

For uh for something with uphill and downhill and rocks and routes and yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 19:20

So yeah, that's that's like Did you know how to train? Um I knew like the basics of like marathon training, right? Like I kind of came up to speed there. And again, like the the the main information about ultrarunner time was just essentially just just run more, you know, just keep adding while running. And I would do that, but again, like I didn't know anybody who trail you know who was a trail runner.

SPEAKER_02: 19:51

There's not a lot of trail runners in Aurora.

SPEAKER_01: 19:53

Yeah. Sure, there's trails in Aurora. No, there's a couple. Um there's some paved trails. Pave trails, yeah. So it was it was yeah, it was a weird spot because it was still it was still quite a I was still getting to know people. Yeah, I was just starting to get to know some people in trail running, you know, through some of these group runs and whatnot. So didn't really know what trails to go on to.

SPEAKER_02: 20:16

And um it's tough to like uh I don't know, like feel safe, capable enough to go on the trails. Um and we you were saying earlier, like you can't even really find a trail map. So it's like you might worry about getting lost, right? And like like where do you even park? Where's the trail head? Yeah, you know, there's all this knowledge that we kind of take for granted now. Just like when you're getting into the sport, it's pretty, it's pretty difficult to figure it out. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_03: 20:48

Well, take us from this first 50 miler, this terrible loop race to making running your life.

SPEAKER_01: 20:57

Yeah. Yeah. So that uh rough race, but it was by far probably the proudest I ever was, you know, for myself up until that point.

SPEAKER_03: 21:10

Oh yeah. We just talked to someone that last night for the pod, and he talked about the pride you get from running these big distances. He ran his first 50 mile and he said he could look people in the eye again. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 21:26

Stand tall.

SPEAKER_01: 21:27

Yeah. Yeah, because I mean, I was just making a lot of poor choices like right before then, and just did not feel very good about myself. And I think that's such a gift of running generally, but then these big distances is there's just no, there's just really no way around the integrity of it all. Like you have to do these things, you have to, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 21:54

Like if somebody, if somebody t comes up and tells you I've run this 50 miler or this other race or whatever, like you automatically know what they've been through. Right. Yeah. That they've put in the work and gone through the challenge. Right. It tells you a little bit about their character.

SPEAKER_01: 22:12

Right, yeah, right. And it's I mean, at least doing a distance, a race, there's no yeah, there's just no like faking your way through it, right? You have to it's the simplicity of running, really. Um but then I think it was a full year until I did another race because it took so long to recover, and I had to go to some physical therapist and you know, started to learn about all these things. Um start that journey. Yeah, start that journey, just a young, young, young 20, some you're know it all. Um and then, you know, that led into yeah, another, I think it was another 50 mile, and then later that year, my first hundred mile race.

SPEAKER_02: 22:58

Um so you went like you run you're running some marathons, yeah. You run a 50, and then next year you're like, I'm gonna sign up for a hundred. Yeah, and then eventually I make this sound like it's a weird thing, but I did the exact same thing. So okay.

SPEAKER_01: 23:14

Well, actually, if you want to know this, like this very specific story about how that happened was so my first hundred was Silver Silver Heels 100.

SPEAKER_02: 23:24

Yeah, so for human potential race series, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 23:27

Shout out to Sherpa. Sherpa John. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 23:30

John LaCroix.

SPEAKER_01: 23:31

He's been on the podcast. Yeah, yeah, I listened to that one. Yeah, it was great. Um, but he he was just developing, he was just developing some of his races at the time. I think this was the first year of that race. And so um, I think he just like set up like his Facebook groups and things like that. And um I got on Facebook one night and it was like if you're the thousandth person to like this post, you get free entry into Silver Heels. And it was like 998, and I like refreshed it, it was like 999, and so I just clicked the like button, I got a free entry into oh, oh my gosh. That is fun, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 24:15

So it's pretty uh felt like I must do this now.

SPEAKER_01: 24:19

Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 24:20

That's how I felt about getting in the volunteer lottery at Hilo.

SPEAKER_01: 24:24

Oh, right, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 24:25

I was like, oh, I guess I have to do this now.

SPEAKER_02: 24:28

That's the there's a weight, I think there's a there's a weight to the volunteer spots. I know Western States gives out volunteer spots and hilo does. Like there's a weight to that. There's like like there's you know, hundreds of volunteers who want those spots and they are coveted, and you were like lucky enough to win it, and I only had to pay a Caleb a few hundred bucks to get it. Um I'm just kidding. Got free spot. Free spot for it.

SPEAKER_03: 24:58

So you win this entry and you're like, I guess I'm doing this thing.

SPEAKER_01: 25:02

Yeah, and I think the race wasn't that far away, you know, it was a handful of months away or something. Um so you're just gonna just gonna go do it? Yeah, I've been like, you know, starting to dream about this stuff now, you know. So I was like, okay, maybe it's just time to just jump into it. Um so did the 100 mile race terrible?

SPEAKER_03: 25:21

Like terrible.

SPEAKER_01: 25:22

Well, what I mean, it's a hundred mile, it's a hundred money.

SPEAKER_02: 25:25

Yeah, it's not everybody executes it perfectly the way you did. Yeah. Yeah. This is the expected reaction. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 25:34

And again, it was still a time when you know there's only a few nutrition products out there. Um, they're just starting to come out with more packs. Um the the the peanut butter and jelly is a good one.

SPEAKER_02: 25:48

I'm sure that was there. Oh, definitely. And the uh the potato chips with everyone's hands in it.

SPEAKER_01: 25:55

Yes. You know, there's that guy drinking beer every Easter race.

SPEAKER_04: 25:59

Yes, it's a guy.

SPEAKER_01: 26:01

It's not that guy. He's probably still out there.

SPEAKER_02: 26:03

Oh, he's still there. Yeah. He's still offering, hey, you want some of this Budweiser?

SPEAKER_03: 26:09

Um did you get blisters?

SPEAKER_01: 26:12

Um, I got blisters. I think it was my IT bands, all both of them just became totally ruined and hiked most of the last third or so. Um Do you have a moment out there where it was like pretty hard? Um it was the only time uh I mean, well, maybe not the only time, but it was like severe hallucinations. Oh like like I think uh it was um I thought there was herds of horses coming after us.

SPEAKER_02: 26:44

Oh, that's bad. Yeah, yeah. That's not just like I think I see the aid station. No, it's another tree. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01: 26:56

No, that's a bad hallucination. That was bad. Yeah. Yeah. I you know, I just made silly mistakes. It's just um but you know, finished it, yeah, and that was it was huge. I mean, it's just massive. You know, just like life-defining sort of feeling.

SPEAKER_00: 27:14

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 27:15

Right? It's just go before that moment of going before and after finishing a hundred mile race. Yeah, it's it's just so unique.

SPEAKER_02: 27:27

Um there there is definitely a little bit of a depression afterward, not necessarily I'm not saying depression as in like uh clinical depression, but just like uh it's like the apex of emotion through there. And then then there's this what comes after, right? Like how do I follow that up? Um you've run now, skipping forward, I guess. You just finished your 20th hundred? Yeah, I just finished my 20th. And I guess I would like to ask what motivates you to continue running them.

SPEAKER_03: 28:05

But then we gotta come back to my first question.

SPEAKER_02: 28:08

Oh, did we skip did we skip?

SPEAKER_03: 28:10

Yeah, we were on a journey. We were on a journey. Oh, but we can go to yours and then we'll come back to mine. I'll remind him.

SPEAKER_02: 28:16

Well, but the listeners will just have to keep up.

SPEAKER_01: 28:19

Yeah, yeah. Well, I guess they kind of I mean, I think they do, it does connect in a way. Um because yeah, I mean, going to your point, John, about these ups and ups and downs with racing, running, that was definitely an experience early on. Um it was something I mean I had to be almost careful about because you know, like I it came from um just yeah, just partying, drinking a lot, and you know, I ended up like stopping.

SPEAKER_02: 28:57

You end up chasing the high.

SPEAKER_01: 28:59

Yes, yeah. I mean yeah, so like sobriety has been part of my journey since then. Like that's that was sort of the part of really the catalyst before the racing. Um and it was, you know, it was a weird place to be of now truly having these uh huge experiences that are so unique, but then so quickly would you know go away and you can't you can't regain those experiences very quickly again, right?

SPEAKER_02: 29:32

Because your body takes so much effort.

SPEAKER_01: 29:35

Yes, your body is just ruined. I mean, it's right, it's just so difficult to do.

SPEAKER_02: 29:39

Unless you're Andrew Glaze.

SPEAKER_03: 29:41

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 29:42

Yeah, that's true. Which I mean, we could talk about chasing the high in that sense as well. Yeah, that's true. So like there is a set there is something you have to confront in the times in between. Like, how do you live how do you live with yourself when you're not, you know. when you don't have these giant events right you know, a week afterwards. Yeah. I'm not sure how long it lasts for you. But gosh, I find the depression afterward to come yeah, about about yeah, a week to two weeks. And then I'm and then I'm like, oh my gosh, what do I like my body still needs recovery, but my mind is like searching for that next adventure. Right.

SPEAKER_01: 30:26

Yeah, for sure. I mean still get that for sure. Um my experience over the course of just more and more and more racing was well really just more running. Was trying to, I mean there was there was sort of this defining run I remember where it was a long run. I just sort of had this thought of well, you know, what would it be like if I just stopped worrying so much about that next race and just like thought of this as something I'll be doing until I don't want to do anymore. You know, like it'll just be part of my life from now on. And I you know just accepted that this is going to be part of like who I am from here on out. And that's you know that's sort of been I think where I've gradually changed my relationship with running. You know it's it's I love racing. I love doing you know a bunch of races every year. But more than that, it's just this feeling of okay running is you know something that's much more than just the training and the races and even just you know the people you get to meet and place you get to go. It's just like this you know this sort of acceptance of um you know being okay that this is now part of me and that's yeah and I and I can take some time off after a race you know because I know it's going to be there. Donut week. That's right. I did that's right. I did that I follow you on Instagram. Yeah what is donut week what is donut week yeah so it's uh very important part of recovery um we just yeah me and my wife we just moved into a a new house and so um we figured out that there's a donut shop a mile away from the house our house now and so after my recent hundred miler it was you know that's the perfect distance for a morning walk to get yourself out the door you know not not run but still get outside and take some time off while still you know getting some fresh air and all these things. Get some needed calories yes exactly um so for a week I would walk down there every morning to get donuts and so for for a recovery week yeah I would go down get two donuts um became donut week yeah okay I see I love the tradition yeah yeah I was just talking to my wife Alan about yeah I wonder what the the owner the guy who was there every morning thinks because I was just showing up every day at the same time all of a sudden like vanished after like seven days right it's that guy's uh I don't know good donuts yeah so but um so how do you want to return to your question?

SPEAKER_03: 33:12

No he he returned marked returned to it and answered it without prompting. Um and how did you decide to become a coach?

SPEAKER_01: 33:24

Yeah so initially started with just wanting to learn a lot more for myself and because um things just went poorly and I just wanted you know I wanted to do better. I wanted to try to go for the next thing and and took a variety uh a few different coaching certifications um you know there's tons of them out there this was all to do better yourself and yeah I just want to learn a lot more for myself got it and you know there's there's some great books out there too specific to trail running ultrunning there's a lot more now um but yeah so I started yeah just taking more of these certifications and classes um again most of it was all for road running marathon up to marathon level which is still really helpful right same principles throughout yeah I mean every every type of running most how you adapt.

SPEAKER_02: 34:18

I mean most trail running training is marathon training plus a little specificity right yeah and multiplied by how much time you have right yeah I mean you just understand those principles and yeah you go from there.

SPEAKER_01: 34:29

Um and um yeah started just coaching just I think there's uh some friends of mine um who are starting to get into running um and then started coaching a high school cross country team and that was great and had an yeah it was cool for about five years it did um we like went to states and things like that it was really yeah it was it was neat so this is the transition when you start to make this a career right yeah it's really like where I started like focusing in more and more um and that that process too was really neat because there was a a couple other coaches in the area that were very seasoned coaches who like continued to kind of mentor me and you know we connected and you know these old old older people who just been doing this for decades and um you just start to get to know people right in the coaching community. And so yeah it's just like a continual process of yeah just learn more you know it's just endless education out there now that you can do um for for coaching and then obviously there's always you know new science coming out new studies things are kind of getting played you know experimented with and paying attention to all those sorts of things a lot of fun so yeah um yeah now we all now all we eat is hope is protein that's right right everybody gotta be protein pilled you gotta be protein pilled you've got to be high carb pilled yeah high protein high carb right right it's it's it's high protein off the trail and it's high carb when you're on the trail you just always keep your body guessing yeah yeah but then um then a few years ago um maybe let's see it's about three or four years two really good friends of mine's uh Sammy Lewis and Gabe Dorn who are who are physical or are physical therapists they wanted to venture out on their own and start their own company Golden Endurance and part of that is uh coaching run coaching arm and so um they have a you know in they have a a brick and mortar office space and clinic for physical therapy and they also are coaches and um then you know I'm part of that run coaching part of the company.

SPEAKER_02: 37:01

Yeah friends of the podcast yeah well we haven't had Gabe on yet we have not had Gabe on well Gabe we had a video a voice message that Gabe we played on the podcast. Oh wow so all of Golden Endurance voices have been on the podcast but Gabe has not been on live oh we'll have to change that because Sammy's been on that was a great episode if anybody's listening and hasn't heard the Sammy episode highly recommend ankylosing spondylitis is not anything to uh shake a stick at is that still a phrase people still say that we'll just we'll just move forward uh she she uh just finished her first uh first under mile the bear which I mean incredible yeah amazing the the what she's overcome we'll have to get Sammy back for uh round two yeah didn't she run like 24 hours or something just under 24 hours oh my gosh if anyone's listened to Sammy's episode you'll know how incredible that is yeah that was really cool so you started you co-founded golden endurance as the the main coaching arm yeah yeah that how is uh how's that gone how's that experience been yeah no it's been really neat to just gradually work with Sam and Gabe to you know build that community around Golden Endurance um it's you know it's just continued to build and um it's been a lot of yeah it's just been a lot of fun to you know now we'll go out running and we were doing the rim to rim to rim and my wife and I in in you know the Grand Canyon and ran into people Gold Endurance shirts on and they're like is like is your name Mark that's gone so it's just like we've had like random encounters with people like on East Coast too that happened one time and um so it's a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_01: 38:58

It's really neat yeah it's what what's really nice about build you know coaching now through Gold Endurance like a company um with others involved is it brings in a variety of clients now you know so you get just a just just really neat swath of people. So people who are back of the pack. Yeah I mean we're running which want to run for first time you know I coach somebody who uh she wanted to run a 5k with her daughter that is in college you know and she just you know had never ran before. Um and then you know you go all the way up to you know everyone else at the wild and crazy distances and and I everything between people want to you know aim for the podium first place and people who just want to do something neat and different with themselves. So yeah that's that's that's been a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_03: 39:55

We have some friends like that are looking for coaches. Um of course we always say like you should go to Sammy you should go you should go as much as I say that some of them still don't listen what advice would you give someone in regards to like a question or a couple of questions to ask a coach before they decide of course they'll ask about um their credentials and training modalities and all those things but what questions would you advise them to ask yeah I think one question that's important is how do they approach the coach and runner relationship and also kind of embedding that as their their load of of clients they take on. Oh yeah um what would be a happy load?

SPEAKER_01: 40:55

I think it's just it's different for everyone um it's harder for me to imagine coaching more than a few dozen people um just because if you truly dedicate your s your time to everyone or unless you know somebody wants to work a ton hours you know every week you could always coach more and more.

SPEAKER_02: 41:18

Yeah I've heard 40 yeah is like kind of around where you max out that efficiency. Yeah that is for a full-time coach to give personal time to every one of their runners that you know it it it it is plus or minus depending on the person you know some people are more efficient in the way they work or whatever uh or just naturally are quicker or slower. Uh but then like if you get into the if you're above 60 like you're really starting to get into the range where coaches have to take shortcuts to to reduce personal time to personal dedication to like what they uh you know how much thinking they can do about each individual.

SPEAKER_03: 42:06

We'll come back to this put a pin in this put a pin in that okay yeah because I have more questions about that.

SPEAKER_01: 42:12

Yeah yeah um yeah that's that's definitely important. I think uh I mean when I when I'm ever on an initial call with somebody, you know, just sort of a general um consult call where they're just interested in coaching. One of the things I usually always start with is you know really in the end you have to feel like we have some chemistry you know like there's no way around that. You know so it's almost like you're going on a first date and you know by the end of it you should know like okay I want to see this person again or not. And if it's not like a hell yeah then probably you know just keep keep talking to other coaches. There's so many these days. Yeah there's a lot.

SPEAKER_03: 42:56

Have you ever decided not to work with someone?

SPEAKER_01: 42:59

There's been a a handful of people who I've um had a like end the coaching running relationship. But the the the part of to that too which I think it leads to like third final piece that I think is really important is just around communication. Like how do they how does a coach view communication? You can break it down all sorts of ways around communication around like goal setting communication around your daily activities. Some people don't there's some clients who're just like you know I'll talk to you once a month and you know I'm like pulling information out of them. And that's where I've had you know some um some occurrences where yeah it's just I haven't heard from somebody in weeks um because for me that's really important. You know if I don't know what's going on it's it's just like I can't I can't really I'm not gonna be helpful to you. And so I don't want to you know just be taking your money just because you know we we agreed to something a while back.

SPEAKER_02: 44:16

So as as a runner you yeah I mean it's an overused phrase but you get out what you put in right the more you communicate now of course there's a level of communication that could be considered overcommunicating but you'd have to try pretty hard to get there. Yes you would you would and like if you if you tell your coach your goals if you tell them how you're feeling on the runs you know I know anytime I'm just like I'm feeling off I always get a message back. It's like well what's wrong John like tell me why you're feeling off like let's see if we can fix this. So like it just it's just helpful to be like right I mean this person's invested in me. That I mean that's that's the relationship right it's that investment of like I care about like that you feel off and I wonder if there's something we can do with training to uh change that or address it especially if it's a continuing thing. Um so yeah just like you get out what you put in.

SPEAKER_01: 45:21

Mm-hmm. Right. And that's you know it's that's what I love about coaching is be able to support somebody um you know aim help them aim aim and move towards some some goal of theirs whatever that may be and you can't do that without some level you know a certain amount of communication. Because I think too a part of a coach is also be a sense of a a teacher in a way right like I want you know athletes to I hope for athletes to understand more and more about their own bodies their own training right just training general and and that helps with communication so at some point you know I think some some really good examples end up being people who are like I you know I'm gonna move this run to tomorrow you know because I'm just I mean John you've done that like I I do it rarely but I but it's important to feel that I have the power. Yeah you know be like okay I had this workout today but like this this this and life is going on and so you know obviously it makes sense to move tomorrow to tomorrow and and just feel an empowered to to kinda have some control of their training as well.

SPEAKER_02: 46:32

So Summit is interrupting the podcast as he is prone to do.

SPEAKER_03: 46:36

So I'll I'll um pull that pin out now.

SPEAKER_02: 46:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_03: 46:40

Um so I've had I've heard of some coaches using chat GPT quite a bit oh interesting um to help help them sure sure sure make comments and such and I was wondering what role do you think shortcuts like that play in coaching?

SPEAKER_01: 47:04

Yeah that's uh definitely a new world opening up um I think it's very difficult right now with something like that. Um let's take maybe another example of say your housing training and like Excel sheets right and you kind of do some copy and paste type stuff just right it's kind of a version of that where it's somehow being generated outside your own initial authoring um I think you're just losing a ton of context right I've I actually played around with Chat GPT for myself just be like let me see like because I heard I started hearing about people using this for training.

SPEAKER_02: 47:46

Right we have a we met somebody doing that.

SPEAKER_01: 47:49

Yeah and it's is extremely difficult to provide it with the full context that um say like a a coach um should hopefully know. So what I mean by that is you know what type of job do you have? What type of family life do you have you know are there some historical health issues and the list goes on and on and on right it's like versus just saying here's my structure and training for the X number of weeks and here are my paces I ran, this and that and um there's so much context mix in it. So that's where I think a lot of these shortcuts and also goes back to when you have a high number of athletes like extremely high number you almost inevitably have to find some shortcuts to um to make that all work. So that could be like okay I'm just gonna take somebody's training over here they're doing the same kind of race so we'll just use the same sort of training. You know it makes it seems like that might work you know when you think about first but it really doesn't like in the sense of trying to individualize um someone's training just help them help them out you know and be like gonna therapist and then you know just peeing back to you what they said their last client or something.

SPEAKER_02: 49:04

Well I mean there's ChatGP does that too I mean you're all just talking about your father at the end of the day so it's basically the same thing.

SPEAKER_03: 49:12

So you so what I hear that you're saying is you're not you're not just paying for the the spitting out of a training plan or the spitting out of a comment. You're paying for the wealth of knowledge and experience that a coach brings and their ability to look at your individual situation and give you and design a plan for you and design um a running experience for you.

SPEAKER_01: 49:38

Yeah yeah and and to be I think an important part of coach is to keep that broader vision always for an athlete and you know understand and getting to know somebody more and more over time so you can keep that broader vision right so it's like okay for example like I know this you're going through this career change or something in your family life is really important right now. So you know broadly how do we continue working towards your goals to count for us things like that right it could get lost in the in the wheeze of just spitting out you know weekly training runs and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_02: 50:17

So yeah that's excellent yeah I mean I remember when yeah when I was going through some difficult time la last year with uh with with my dad dying and it was and it was and it's like this weird period in between hundreds where the the running is just so awkward. Um it was just really nice to have I don't know I rely on training plans for a lot of I think like there's a mental aspect to it that I really appreciate. Yeah the structure and the consistency of being able to just say well what am I running today? Yeah definitely and and that I can hold on to and when life gets really busy when work gets stressful when if I have uh difficult family things happening it's it's really helpful to know that somebody that like cares about my running authored it and but it also isn't me so I don't have to like because when there's another person involved it helps me to to to make sure I do it and I just rely on on that consistency. So I the the personal relationship that is really important to me. I and if if my uh if I was just using chat GPT I mean I know what chat gpt is I know it's a multi billion parameter model like conformer transformer model like I know how those are made like they're not human they run on they run on GPUs and uh it's it's just it's not a person and for me like having a person behind the screen is really important. So when you the times you haven't had a coach how how how were those periods were you yeah those downtimes or you know someone or I prior to having a coach I would do you know the running training we talked about earlier where somebody would ask me how I train for it and I was like I just run like a lot yeah and uh I would run with my friends a lot and group runs I would pretty much just go and do as much as I can all the time. And then I I trained with Nick who we also had on the podcast. Nick was really good.

SPEAKER_03: 52:52

We'd Nicodemus de la rosa.

SPEAKER_02: 52:54

Yes yeah right right and Nick Nick was really excellent at you know I wanted to be I wanted to be trained to the max and so Nick Nick acquiesced in my request and you know that was my Barclay training I was like I need to be the fittest I've ever been nothing else matters in my life just give me the training. Oh he was and and that was really great but it was uh I knew it was a time like I knew it was a period of time and like I almost sort of burnt myself out on working with Nick because I specifically needed to just all I wanted to do was train. And so I took some time off after that and in between working with Nick and working with you I did try and program myself but I just found that I I just started running like everything. And I'm I'm I was always worried that I wasn't doing enough like I have these goals like I'm I'm pretty goal oriented. I set out goals for myself like I want to run this race and I want to you know in five years I want to be running this and and I would just have this back of my mind worry like is my this five mile run that's not enough I'm gonna have to do I'm gonna have to do three or four more and and you know I never really took rest days and my long runs would just be so much more vert than is effective. And and you know that's fine once or twice but like every week every week and day I would be filling my time with running and it was all due to like this low level anxiety in my brain that was like yeah I don't know if you're doing enough. If you're not tired, you're probably not doing enough yeah and you know when we started I you know I definitely said like I want to find a happy medium. I want to find something that allows me to live my life fully and train well and I actually I I find that I run less when I'm working with a coach that like I in my what I run is more effective and I have more time for my other things and I get rid of this low level anxiety in the back of my head. So yeah I mean maybe it's a crutch but this one I can afford and I like it. Yeah worse crutches out there definitely worse crutches out there. But you know as I was saying earlier like that part of that is like knowing somebody's on my team yeah I think that that's really helpful. What about you? Have you ever thought coaching Miranda?

SPEAKER_03: 55:36

What me? Yeah you ever considered a coach um no well I did marathon training with coaches but then going into ultra running no I don't I don't want to be told not to do something. Yeah I get that I don't have any problem running a lot um or doing workouts um I could probably be better if I was more dialed in but I'd rather just go have fun with my friends.

SPEAKER_01: 56:18

Yeah yeah I definitely get that yeah I mean I think there's definitely conversations I've had with people where I've told them like just don't get a coach for a while you know it's I think it going back to what we were talking about earlier where everything's so accessible it seems it it maybe just because we're in Colorado right and and so many people are just in the you can't throw a stick in this town without hitting a couple ultra runners. Yeah I know sometimes just do intentionally is throw a stick just try to do it once um but you know so it becomes I think sometimes a sense of a barrier entry you know like I need to be on a training plan I need to get a coach I need to do X, Y, and Z. And I mean right, if you learn about these things so much of it is just gradually running a little bit more very you know carefully mindfully and that will get you a very long way.

SPEAKER_02: 57:23

That is so hard though and but it is so hard yes right I mean I believe I believe people can do it. I'm not suggesting I'm not saying everyone needs a coach you definitely don't like yeah if you just run a little bit more at a good pacing of that little bit more and what is that is sort of different for everyone out there you will be able to your body will be able to handle the stress and you'll build up to a race but or an event or or just whatever your goals are. But like telling an ultra runner somebody who decided that running 26.2 was not far enough right telling them like oh yeah you should only really increase your mileage maybe maybe five 10% a week in your buildup and I mean that is so hard to do unless you're writing it down.

SPEAKER_01: 58:13

Yes yeah you know for sure yeah yeah and I think I you know I think in those ex those conversations with certain people it's more about you know um encouraging to have curiosity of like what do you want running to be because it doesn't have to be just a structure and training and getting better. Yeah it's like what do you want it to be like kind of figure that out a little bit first because if you hire a coach because I you know I've had experience where somebody comes to coaching and they want like you know they want the plan they want to what you're talking about even about let's be hardcore for this year and then it's like okay like if you're sure you want to do this like yeah yeah yeah and a month into it it's not what they want to be doing.

SPEAKER_02: 58:58

I think I would be that yeah exactly and yeah totally fine it's just it's pretty easy to burn yourself out yeah by giving yourself a list of things you have to do every day. Yes. So it's like yeah there's there's definitely a balance with that yeah do you have a proudest coaching moment?

SPEAKER_01: 59:17

Um and was it when I crossed the line just could you pull up John's altar song um pronounced coaching moment. Um I think um I think probably working with the high school kids yeah there's probably some of the pronounced moments um specifically I mean you're talking about I think being in this Colorado running world you forget how um intimidating running is as a movement and activity. And so you know Yeah, I was having these kids who I had to talk them out of like going you know going to the hospital after be afterwards because their knee hurt or something. You know what I mean? Like not having an asthmatic attack. It's just you're breathing. You haven't ever done this before, it's okay. Um there's a few.

SPEAKER_02: 1:00:20

No, throwing up's good. Doing well. You're fine.

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:24

That wasn't that far. Um so there's some specific kids there. Yeah. I mean, one particular is Kid Pedro. He was just very, you know, it was just kind of a misfit in the school. Um, he used to be bullied when he was a bit younger, and got him to you know, come to cross country and join the team. And by the end of like senior year, he school mascot was the knights, and so he like hand crocheted this this uh metal um I don't even know what you call it, you know, the the stuff that knights, medieval knights wear armor. Armor? Yeah, he like actually oh my gosh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:01:13

Like he like clipped the links together chain link armor that's I was in SCA.

SPEAKER_03: 1:01:19

I used to do that also. Okay, what is it?

SPEAKER_02: 1:01:21

What is SCA?

SPEAKER_03: 1:01:22

Society for Creative Anachronism, like a Renaissance pair.

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:26

Yeah, yeah, he was making that.

SPEAKER_03: 1:01:27

Yeah, yeah, perfect. I would get along with this kid.

SPEAKER_02: 1:01:30

Yeah. Yeah, he was he's great. You do a lot of LARPing.

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:36

Blacksmithing. But yeah, he just, you know, he he became a runner, you know, he would run throughout the summer. He'd I don't increase all these times.

SPEAKER_03: 1:01:47

So he ran with his little armor.

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:49

No, no, no. But he would come to our team, he would come to our uh um our meets in it to like rile the team. And then he'd be he did this at the school too and stuff eventually, and he came the mascot. And um it's called Pedro. Yeah, so he became you know, he's like running became part of his life. Like that's what he you know he did with this time.

SPEAKER_02: 1:02:14

Um gave somebody the gift of running.

SPEAKER_03: 1:02:17

That is.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:18

Yeah, it's definitely a gift, so it's pretty neat.

SPEAKER_03: 1:02:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:22

Yeah. Something about young, yeah, younger people too. I think it's I mean, I guess everyone when it comes to ultra running, but just that transition, right, from you didn't run and now you're doing it most days out of the week, you know, that's a big change to make.

SPEAKER_03: 1:02:40

I love that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:02:42

And even if it doesn't last, I like to say that you know, running's always there for you later. You know, you can always come back to it. It's a little harder when you do that. It's definitely harder, yes.

SPEAKER_03: 1:02:55

What's next for you running-wise?

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:57

Um Well, I part part of my own running, I just like jumping into all sorts of things. So then in December, I'm doing my first 24-hour race on my track. Ooh. You're doing desert solstice.

SPEAKER_03: 1:03:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:15

When is that? Uh December 20th. Oh, we should go.

SPEAKER_03: 1:03:19

Where is it at?

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:21

It's in Phoenix, right? Yeah. Somewhere around there? Yep. Phoenix.

SPEAKER_03: 1:03:25

We should.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:26

We should go.

SPEAKER_03: 1:03:27

We can drive down that way.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:30

Maybe we'll be there. Okay.

SPEAKER_03: 1:03:31

Yeah. I'm I should I should drive that way.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:35

I should definitely do a time trace. Yeah. I mean, you know, why not?

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:40

You because you did uh jackpot? I did. Yeah, it was the first time I did a looped race like that.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:46

What were you at? What was your time? Like 16, 17 hours?

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:50

Um 14? It was 1530 something.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:54

Okay. I set all the numbers for 15. Yeah. That's really good. And what tell us, tell the listeners what you were most proud of from that jackpot.

SPEAKER_01: 1:04:03

Yeah, so you're to be talked about that first uh hundred mile race um I did, you know, back a while a while ago, Silver Heels. So the jackpot, I ran it uh the race in half the time as my first hundred mile race.

SPEAKER_03: 1:04:19

Wow.

SPEAKER_01: 1:04:19

Yeah, it was kind of neat because uh I mentioned it, you know, to my OIFL, and that's the time I was like, you know, like I wonder what that would be. And maybe with a few miles left, I was like, oh crap, like if I speed up a little bit here, I think I think I could actually do this. And yeah, got it just a few minutes underneath. So that's such a cool.

SPEAKER_02: 1:04:42

That is amazing. It shows the progress of body and mind over those many years. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's pretty cool. Yeah, it was neat. You know, we always like to end our podcast by asking our guests for a piece of advice. Now, you've given a lot of great advice, this podcast. But do you have anything else to deign our listeners with your wisdom?

SPEAKER_01: 1:05:06

Um Yeah, this is this is a little saying that yeah, I heard once um from some wise people. But um, acceptance is often the solution to your problems.

SPEAKER_03: 1:05:22

Um, this is very timely.

SPEAKER_02: 1:05:27

I feel like I have some work stress right now that could use some acceptance. Right. And ultrarunning, it's often the case as well. Oh my god. Um everything gets easier when you just accept that that's your life. Right.

SPEAKER_03: 1:05:44

Uh I know I've told this on the pod before, but my girlfriend Hannah was just running uh run rabbit, and she said she tried to accept that this was just her life running, running and suffering. And it made her feel like she just didn't want to live anymore. Like this is not a life worth living.

SPEAKER_01: 1:06:03

Right. Yeah, I mean, I think it follows up with what you do after that. You might need to do something differently, but uh yeah, I think often it starts with acceptance.

SPEAKER_03: 1:06:12

I love that. Thank you for being on the pod, Mike.

SPEAKER_02: 1:06:16

Yeah, thanks for having me. Appreciate it. And uh thank you to the listeners for getting this far. Uh, if you appreciated Mark, if you want to if you want to find him, he's on the socials. Uh, we'll add him on our channel as well. But you can also find him through Golden Endurance if you're looking for coaching, running coaching. I love working with Mark. He's pretty chill.

SPEAKER_03: 1:06:38

We'll link in the show notes.

SPEAKER_02: 1:06:40

Yeah. So thank you to all the listeners, and we'll see you next time.