SPEAKER_01: 0:11

Hello and welcome to Running with Problems. My name is John Eisen.

SPEAKER_00: 0:15

I'm Miranda Williamson.

SPEAKER_01: 0:17

Running with Problems is a podcast about the lives of runners and the problems they inevitably face. Today on the podcast, we have Katie Gersman.

SPEAKER_00: 0:25

Yeah, Katie was great. But first, how are you doing, John?

SPEAKER_01: 0:31

Oh, I'm not so great. No, how are you?

SPEAKER_00: 0:35

Do you want to elaborate on that a little bit?

SPEAKER_01: 0:37

Oh I'm just I've just been dealing with a lot of uh anxiety and nerves for the past couple months. And those struggles continue.

SPEAKER_00: 0:48

Yeah, and it makes recording uh a challenging right now.

SPEAKER_01: 0:53

Yeah, yeah. I think uh it's been good to have a break, but yeah, a lot of life is happening. A lot of life and uh just trying to navigate my way through it.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04

You're back to training.

SPEAKER_01: 1:06

I am training for uh I guess the last time we spoke on the podcast was right after Avalon. So now um just into training for Kokodona. Do apologize about the sound of an airplane passing because we are currently podcasting from underneath the airplane landing route in San Diego.

SPEAKER_00: 1:28

That's right. A little bit of an unfortunate background noise that we'll have in a couple of our episodes.

SPEAKER_01: 1:36

This is the last one we're hosting from San Diego.

SPEAKER_00: 1:38

We're headed back to Boulder.

SPEAKER_01: 1:40

You excited to get home?

SPEAKER_00: 1:42

I am very excited to get home. I have enjoyed the sun. This has been an eventful trip in both good ways and bad ways. I have some very bad news to share with our listeners. Summit tore his ACL while down here.

SPEAKER_01: 1:57

And as you all runners know, when you experience an injury, you know, it can be devastating for your mental health.

SPEAKER_00: 2:05

He is so depressed. Poor guy. But we have surgery scheduled for him. When we get back to Boulder, he'll have his uh knee surgery, and hopefully that all goes well. So keep him in your thoughts.

SPEAKER_01: 2:20

And he'll be right back on trying to get on the podcast pretty soon.

SPEAKER_00: 2:26

Poor guy. But Katie, should we talk about this episode?

SPEAKER_01: 2:30

Katie. Uh Katie had an incredible journey to share. Uh, I really thought her whole story was gripping. I was on the edge of my seat. I know that we said that about the last one, but it's true for both of them. Uh, I loved hearing her tell the story. And uh, yeah, what is the story about?

SPEAKER_00: 2:50

So um let me just backtrack a little bit. I met Katie, as we talk about a little bit in the podcast, while crewing John out at Utah 115. And I immediately got along with her. She's very open about her journey as a runner and some of her challenges. She um has two children, and after having children, she has had a really hard time returning to running um because of the medical system really failing her in a lot of ways, and having to be an advocate for her own health and um ability. And we get into that in the podcast.

SPEAKER_01: 3:32

And experiencing some severe complications for pregnancy.

SPEAKER_00: 3:35

Severe complications, and that this is our podcast. We talk about the problems. We don't just talk about the glory around our sport. And um, Katie certainly has faced her share of challenges returning to the sport after childbirth.

SPEAKER_01: 3:51

Yeah, she was an extremely strong runner, part of the hard rock community. She's married to Dominic Grossman, who's uh he hosts the podcast uh Between Two Pines. And yeah, both of them are were very big in the ultra-running community, and then just many years that Katie had to take off due to all these complications and difficulties treating them. And it's it's such a shame to lose so many years, but it it's really important to share the story. So hopefully others can learn from it.

SPEAKER_00: 4:23

You know what it reminded me of when she was telling that her story and talking about her journey through the medical system and her um inability or or lack of desire to give up was it reminded me of Dave Mackey's story in so many ways because she wasn't looking to return to competitive running. She just wanted to return to the community and the connection and the experiences you get while running in Ultra. She she was not even thinking anymore about winning a race. That was no longer what she was after. And that was similar to Dave. He he knew he was making a decision uh when he was planning to amputate his leg that he was no longer going to be competitive, but that was far from his mind. He was just wanting to get back to his life of adventure.

SPEAKER_01: 5:17

Speaking of Dave Mackey, did you see he signed up for the Leadville Run Series?

SPEAKER_00: 5:21

I did. I I told him um he wants to if he wants to come back on the pod, we'd love to have him.

SPEAKER_01: 5:27

Oh, yeah, it'd be good to do a redux. We're rooting for you, Dave. Uh, but yeah, I think that's uh everything. Without, we'll be ready to hand off to Katie.

SPEAKER_00: 5:38

Yeah, not much more to say. She's a great storyteller, so listen and enjoy this episode.

SPEAKER_01: 5:44

Yeah, without further ado, here's Katie Grossman.

SPEAKER_00: 5:47

Enjoy Katie, welcome to the pod. Hi, thanks for having me. It's nice to have you on Running with Problems. So we'll be talking about all your problems today.

SPEAKER_02: 6:07

Yeah, there's many.

SPEAKER_01: 6:09

We all carry it. It's nice to meet you as well.

SPEAKER_00: 6:12

So we met out at Utah 115 when John was running and your husband was running.

SPEAKER_02: 6:19

Correct. I remember that first aid station.

SPEAKER_00: 6:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 6:23

So what oh, what happened at the first aid station? Was it was it pretty busy there?

SPEAKER_00: 6:28

Busy? Was anything busy at that race? Not really.

SPEAKER_02: 6:31

No, in fact, it was uh not set up. The leaders were about to come in and there was no one there yet. So like the drop bags weren't there or anything. So because they were they were a little bit ahead of projections at the beginning.

SPEAKER_00: 6:44

So yeah, so we got to chat for a while. I was there for I think we were there for like an hour or something before our runners came in. And then I saw you at mile 50 again.

SPEAKER_02: 6:57

Yes, which was that Tom was in the car. Oh, yes, the pep talk. Yes, yes, in the back.

SPEAKER_01: 7:06

I I've heard a lot about his pep talk.

SPEAKER_02: 7:09

Yeah, he was he was pretty much done uh at that point, and then he wasn't. He was fine by the next aid station as these things go.

SPEAKER_00: 7:21

I loved your pep talks because I've had some moments with uh John where I was crewing and he was breaking down, and I'm I'm like just losing my patience, but I never know what to say to get him up and moving and moving along. And I'm like, I need to take some lessons from Katie.

SPEAKER_02: 7:40

Well, you know, I just think I've been crewing him for so long that I just like knew that it was a situation where it really did seem pretty miserable out there. So I was giving him the choice. I was like, look, just make up your mind. Is it worth it to continue to do this? Because for a lot of people already, it was not. Like I had seen a lot of people drop. I had given rides to people that were just like, yeah, it just like wasn't worth continuing on. I was like, and so that's totally fine, but just like make the decision because I think if it's valuable for you to like if you would get value out of finishing this, I think you have to at least go into the night because we have uh like we call him night dom because he just he's one of those people that comes alive uh in the evening. He always beats projections, he always starts going faster, and we all know it. And I think deep down he knows it too, especially in these longer races. It's night dom. So I was like, let's just have a little bit of night dom. And then if you still are like that's not working, then we'll stop there. And lo and behold, I saw him at the next stage. He's like, I feel great.

SPEAKER_00: 8:46

Yeah, he looked great when we saw him out there, and uh but what you said to him at one point, you were like, You're wasting your time resting, just whining.

SPEAKER_02: 8:58

Yes, yes, because he was like, Oh, I need to lay down, whatever. And I was like, Okay, then lay down, but all you're doing is complaining, so you're not actually resting, you're just like in this horrible mental space that's not helping anyone, including me. I was tired too. Let's let's make a decision here and get on with it. Katie, where are you from? Uh originally I'm from St. Charles, Missouri, which is like a suburb of St. Louis. Okay. Um, but have lived in the Los Angeles area for since 2005, and then Rightwood, where I live now, which is like a tiny little mountain town up above Los Angeles. I lived there for eight, almost nine years now.

SPEAKER_00: 9:42

And did you move out there? Why did you move out there?

SPEAKER_02: 9:46

Uh work. I not for a specific job, but I knew um graduating, like I wanted to go into creative advertising, and so I wanted to be in one of the major markets, and LA was the one I felt drawn to, so I just moved and figured it out and ended up staying. I I thought maybe it was just gonna be a thing I did for a while and then I never left.

SPEAKER_00: 10:10

Did you start uh trail running out in California?

SPEAKER_02: 10:14

Yes. Um I thought for sure I would be more drawn to the ocean and whatnot. And I was, but like immediately I looked up, I was like, oh, there's mountains up there. There must be trails. And you know, I had moved, I was living by myself. I graduated into the freaking recession, so I was poor. Um, so I needed a cheap hobby. So that just became, I would like Google trails in the Santa Monica Mountains, and that's what I would do every weekend because it was like a cheap, fun thing to do. I would just go explore. Um and was into I had run my first road marathon when I was a senior in college and was training for those. And I started to realize I was enjoying the training on the trails more than I was enjoying the road marathons. So I like once again got on Google Machine. I was like, do trail races exist? And then that's that started the spiral, and now here I am.

SPEAKER_00: 11:12

Well, uh, there's a lot in between that. Oh, yeah, for sure. Your ultra sign up.

SPEAKER_01: 11:17

We did, we did do that amount of research.

SPEAKER_02: 11:20

Yeah, it was really popping off until about 2017 and really what silent.

SPEAKER_00: 11:27

So, what was your first ultra? What led you to choose your first ultra?

SPEAKER_02: 11:32

Um, oh, I was like, so technically my first ultra was a route I put together in the Santa Monica Mountains by myself for my birthday. I think it was like my 26th birthday. Oh I wanted to do one, but I was too scared to like sign up for a race. So I wanted to just go see if I could like do it. So I did that. Um, Dominic and I, we were just friends at the time. We worked at a running store together and he came out and did part of it with me and kind of like helped me because he had done a few ultras. He was the only person I really knew that had done anything like that. Um, so we put it together and then immediately when I finished, he talked me into signing up for a 50K, which was Shadow of the Giants 50K, which is in like southern tip of Yosemite. Oh cool. Yeah, it was gorgeous. It was like up in the big trees, and then we went to Yosemite the next day after the race. That was my first time um ever being there. So it was a really good experience. That was yeah, 2009.

SPEAKER_00: 12:36

And then you had exponential growth after that, right? You went to 100, not too long.

SPEAKER_02: 12:42

Yes, because I was getting goaded into it by Dom. Um, he was like, Oh, if you can do a 50K, like you should do a 50 miler. So I signed up for a 50 miler. I did that, I guess I did the 50k in May. I did the 50 miler in August. And then I was trained, all of my friends were supposed to run Angelus Crest 100 that year. Um, and I was doing all the training with them. So they're like, uh, you not only are doing all of our training, but like you're getting faster than us. Like you should do 100 too. So I signed up for the Havelina hundred that year, and then that was the year of our apocalyptic station fire that took a third of the San Gabriels. And so all my friends who were gonna help me with my race, they signed up. Jamil opened up spots to any displaced AC runners to Havelina. So my whole crew and pacers were now in the race.

SPEAKER_00: 13:40

Was that a good experience?

SPEAKER_02: 13:42

Yeah, it was it was fun, but I oh my gosh. So my friend who I worked at the running store with, who was like a very fast like track and short distance runner, like super fast. He was my crew and pacer, and he had no idea what he was doing. He had so towards the end, it was so funny. He was like, I was like, I don't want to eat anymore. And he was like, Okay, just don't eat. So I didn't eat for like no time, like nine hours. I wasn't eating, and then I was like, why am I falling asleep on the trail? Like it was it was an experience for sure. But it was cool to be out there with like all of my friends that we had all trained together and stuff, and yeah, I it ended up being a good experience, but it was also like I had nobody that knew what they were doing, I didn't know what I was doing, and it was uh it was an interesting experience for sure. I did pretty much everything wrong.

SPEAKER_01: 14:39

I mean it's still finished. You did pretty well. Is that a sub-24?

SPEAKER_02: 14:44

No, it was right over 24. I was on like 21, 22 hour pace the entire time until the last lap, and that's when I started just falling asleep. I wasn't functioning anymore. Uh meeting. Yeah, yeah. But oh well, it's a good story, I guess.

SPEAKER_01: 15:03

You got hooked on the hundreds.

SPEAKER_02: 15:05

I did. I loved so. Even before that, I went out to they would do, I think it's now an official event, but they used to do these like night runs where you could just come out and run as many loops as you wanted to. And this is uh it's still one of the stupidest things I've ever done. But I like put on some form, I'm like, I want to go from LA. Does anyone own a carpool? I got in the car with a guy I'd never met before, drove all the way out to the desert, ran loops all night, and then drove back. Mind you, I ended up being very good friends with this person. He was great, but I I always look back at this and I was like, that was very dumb. And it was like not an aid station thing. You just went out and ran a big loop, and I had no idea what I was doing. And at some point I was just like out in the desert listening to Paint Floyd, eating those like um jelly belly things that they used to have. These things were so freaking good. And being like, what am I doing? Like, this is incredibly dangerous. Like there's nobody out here except for freaking wild pigs. I'm riding home with this person that I've barely met. Uh, I don't know if this is a good idea, questioning all my life choices, but I was I was hooked because it all turned out fine. I was like, okay, I found my people.

SPEAKER_00: 16:24

What do you like about the hundred-mile distance? What draws you to that distance?

SPEAKER_02: 16:32

I think for me, it's there's so much more this everybody says this, but it's like experiencing the full range of emotions of life like in one day. And I really find that to be true. It's like no matter how you know, I've had races that have gone better and races that have gone very bad, but even the even the best races I've had, there's always like really, really low points. And I just always find it magic to like be in that flow state that's usually somewhere between 65 to 75. It happens in there where you've like overcome a really rough point or just a really hot day or whatever it is. And it's like that flow state that you get there is not the same as just going out on a long run. Like there's nothing else that compares to it for me. And I feel like even now, I'm still just like chasing that high. Like nothing in the last whatever eight years of my forced retirement uh has really compared to that. Like I'm seeking that very specific moment in the race.

SPEAKER_01: 17:39

Yeah, that that uh that feeling of like where thing you you can't really be visualizing the finish. You're still too far.

SPEAKER_02: 17:48

Too far, yes.

SPEAKER_01: 17:49

And you know But you've overcome something difficult or more than one thing's difficult. So you just you find yourself in this middle ground where you achieve I I I got this at the last race I did where I just had to just I turned off all my music, my podcast, and everything. I was just like, just just don't look at your watch, just walk or run, like go forward. And I I don't know, six miles just went by. Yeah, and it was like like all I was doing, I was just pure meditation of be in the moment, move forward on the trail. And it's yeah, it's a totally unique experience. So you can't get anywhere else.

SPEAKER_02: 18:28

And it is exactly what you said, you know, there's still a lot to go. And I always know I was very predictable. I used to call it pain one and pain two, and pain one would come somewhere between 30 and 40. And I used to like that. I could just kind of I'm like, oh, there it is. I'm gonna feel better, like at some point, and then I would feel better, but I knew pain two was coming, and that was the one that was like that would usually hit around like 85-ish, maybe closer to 90. And that one it was like is gonna hurt like a bitch all the way to the end. And so it was like always just trying to ride that wave as long as I could, being like, Oh, I'm still going, clicked off another mile. When is it coming? Because I knew it was coming. Uh, and I like pain too.

SPEAKER_00: 19:12

I like that.

SPEAKER_02: 19:13

Yeah, it was almost the anticipation too of like, is this gonna be the time that I figure out how to like get through it better than I've been able to get through it before? So it was almost like excitement for it, where like, all right, we're doing it, we're gonna make it. Let's see, let's see what we can do when it hits.

SPEAKER_01: 19:30

Wow. Reminds me of like Courtney's attitude, just like I'm I'm looking forward to the pain because the pain is where where the work happens.

SPEAKER_02: 19:40

I haven't figured out how to work like her, and I don't know if I ever will, but you know none of us have.

SPEAKER_00: 19:46

It's a beautiful thing to witness. And you run hard rock, which is a stunning course. I run soft rock, so I've run every step of that beautiful course.

SPEAKER_02: 20:00

Amazing. Yeah, I was peeping your Instagram and saw that you had done that.

SPEAKER_00: 20:03

I was like, oh yeah, it's a pretty spectacular course. Did you have a favorite part?

SPEAKER_02: 20:11

Um during the race for sure, it was being up at Kroger's because. Really?

SPEAKER_03: 20:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 20:17

Yeah, I just had like such a storied history with that, right? Like, I like you, the course itself. I fell in love with it. I went out there in 2011, um, and we ended up just kind of like glomming on to our friend Nick Curry, and Dom was gonna pace him for a bit. We crewed, and we just became obsessed with it, and we went out every single year, whether we ran it or not. And we started putting in the following year. Dom got it, gun got drawn the very first time. What I know he he has such good luck. I uh it's so annoying, but yes, he got drawn the first time and ran it, and then I was trying to get in forever, and I would go out every year, I would pace like 50, 60 miles of it. Like I had the full experience um and just never got in. And then in 2016, I got drawn at five on the wait list, and that's like pretty much in. Yeah. So I trained my ass off. Um, I Tom and I got married that year. I didn't go on a honeymoon. I went out to Hard Rock instead.

SPEAKER_00: 21:24

Oh my god, Barkley for my honeymoon. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 21:30

Um and then yeah, and then I uh dressed out in the morning and didn't get in. Uh so it was like, yeah, it was like a whole thing. Um so anyway, the following year I actually put it in.

SPEAKER_01: 21:45

2016, you you were dressed ready at the start.

SPEAKER_02: 21:51

The weightlift it it's never been that few of people that have gotten in. It was just like a freak year. Um Uh and then we decided we like the plan was I was gonna run hard rock and then we were gonna try to start having kids. So we put off having kids until the lottery in December. It was like, if I get in, we're gonna put it off another year. If I don't get in, we're gonna start having kids. Oh, yeah, full on. I was family planning. That's how obsessed I was with this race.

SPEAKER_01: 22:22

We've we've definitely had experience with that. I wonder so you ended up running that year. What is it like the next year, yeah. 2017. So you get in. I get in. And you know this is like your shot before you have kids.

SPEAKER_02: 22:37

Yes, and I had no idea it would be like here I am, and that's still the last hundred that I finished. Like I had no idea. Uh, but I was like, I gotta give myself the shot because I don't know how this is gonna go having kids. So yeah, I actually I we had moved to the mountains that year. I had left my uh like ad agency job and was gonna go freelance. So I just um when my last freelance contract ended, I bought a truck, the truck I'm in now, built out the back, and I drove out to New Mexico and Colorado for two months and like trained my ass off. I was in the best shape of my life. And yeah, so when I like when I finally got to run it, um, it felt like such a celebration. And it was I was so glad that I didn't get in the year before because it just everything lined up that year. And then Kroger's back to the original question. Um, that was my favorite part because there were a lot of people up there that were like um former hard rockers that I had met throughout the years, and specifically, um I specifically remember this one moment with Diana Finkel, who uh at the time had the course record for women. Um, she's incredible runner, um, and was always out there every year. And I looked at her and I was I was crying, and people were like, oh my God, what's wrong? And I was like, no, no, no, I'm just so happy. And she was like, I know, like you've wanted this for so long. We're so happy for you. And that was that was the moment because she was one of my heroes, and I was surrounded by other heroes, and they were all just I don't know, it didn't matter like how fast I was going or what was happening, it was like, yes, this is the moment, like these people are here for me. I feel like I'm part of the community now, and yeah, it was just it was wonderful. So top moment, top life moment.

SPEAKER_01: 24:32

That's beautiful, yeah. So I guess we've alluded to it quite a bit. What what why aren't you running these days?

SPEAKER_00: 24:43

The forced retirement, as you call it.

SPEAKER_02: 24:47

Well, I will give you the short version, but no, no, no, it's the long version.

SPEAKER_00: 24:52

We have time. Okay.

SPEAKER_02: 24:54

Well, I'm gonna try to like keep it abbreviated. And if you want to stop me at any point and be like elaborate or have questions, then I'll dive more. But otherwise, I'll kind of gloss over it. Otherwise, it would be a very long story, unfortunately. Um, really, I mean, it started, I got pregnant right at so hard rock was in July. Um, I got pregnant really quickly, which was crazy to me because I didn't even have a regular cycle at the time from all the running I've been doing. And I was like, oh my God, how did this happen so quickly? But very, very glad that it did. I like didn't even know if I was gonna have trouble. Um, so very happy. Um, and I felt pretty good other than just feeling out of breath and slow, whatever. But otherwise, it was going fine until about the five and a half, six month mark. Uh, one day I felt a snap in my hip, um, my left hip.

SPEAKER_00: 25:52

And were you doing anything?

SPEAKER_02: 25:54

No. No, I was just like, uh in fact, I had gone to a spin class in the morning and then I had taken a nap. Um, and I was just kind of like stretching uh and moving around, and I just felt this like horrible snap in my left hip, and it my leg went weak. I couldn't walk for days. I almost went to the emergency room, but I was just like, uh, I think it, I don't know, I don't know. I I talked myself out of it because mind you, we live in the mountains and it's like an hour drive to a hospital. I was just like, I'm fine.

SPEAKER_00: 26:26

Oh, and they rarely do anything, anyways.

SPEAKER_02: 26:28

Yeah, and I was like, I'll just ask them the next time I'm there. Well, sure enough, they're like, it's round ligament pain. I'm like, it's not, but you know, they so begins the gaslighting of me. And I just was like, okay, whatever. Um, long story short, it didn't go away. They kept telling me all these reasons why it was gonna go away after I had the baby. It did not. Um I also like I ended up with an emergency C-section. It was like a whole thing, and then like six weeks after birth, they're just like, this concludes your uh or your care. And I'm like, I can't walk. Like, I'm like limping, I'm still bleeding, like in two different areas. Like, what do you mean that I'm good? Oh my god. It was a mess. I need more help. It was a mess. And like, of course, too, I'm like living in a mountain community that I don't know anybody. We moved up there, didn't know anybody. My husband's driving 45 minutes down to the desert to work and is gone all day in a secure facility, and I'm just like alone with a kid and can barely walk. And I'm like, well, this isn't good. Um, so I guess that like the seven, eighth month postpartum is when I've started to seek out like pelvic floor specialists and just trying to get to the bottom of what was going on in my hip. Um, I saw multiple doctors, like again, this is a part that it's like fuzzy because it was just so many different doctors and such a long period of time, but just couldn't get a diagnosis. Um, and then like COVID, like this was going on for years. I I kept trying to run again, and it just like my hip was giving out. I was having pain in my back, in my pelvis, down my groin, just like all around. And about that time is when I started thinking, I think I have a labral tear, and I couldn't get an MRI. I was just like convinced because of the symptoms.

SPEAKER_00: 28:26

And what is that?

SPEAKER_02: 28:27

Uh, it's where like the in your hip uh socket, basically the tissue that kind of like seals and connects your acetabulum, which is like the bowl part of your pelvis and where your femur connects in in the joint. It's like a ring of like cartilage. Um, and it it's pretty common for people, especially our age, to have some sort of tearing and whatnot. But the degree of tearing can be different, um, different levels. And for some people, it's completely asymptomatic. For others, it's a huge issue. Um so in my case, yes, it was a huge issue. So I had started strength training, I was spending all this money out of pocket on physical therapy and all the things, and I'd gotten to the point where like I didn't have a diagnosis. No, no, no, no, no. I still have a diagnosis. They're just it I'm not even gonna go into it, but they told me all sorts of things, all the way to the point where they started suggesting that I went and got um mental help.

SPEAKER_00: 29:29

Um, of women in the medical world.

SPEAKER_02: 29:33

Yes, yes, that the pain, the pain was in my head, and I'm like, okay, cool. Um so yeah, I guess I never got a diagnosis. I got myself to the point where I could at least like lift and I could do other activities. I got really into skiing at that point, but I couldn't get back to like the long distance running. I couldn't run consistently. I would have like a few weeks maybe where I felt really good, and then like all the symptoms would start up. Um, and it was just really frustrating. And I finally got to the point where I was gonna maybe try, I was having a good period where I was like, okay, I think I'm gonna try to do a short race. And then COVID happened. Oh my god. So I couldn't do the race that I planned on doing, which was probably fine because now I know that I actually did have a problem that wasn't fixed. Um so that all happened. I was still having all the issues. I'd kind of just given up and I was like, also, if we're gonna have another kid, I need to like do it because I'm not getting any younger. Got pregnant again and was warned by my pelvic PT that probably everything would come back even worse, and it did. It was that pregnancy I could barely walk for most of the pregnancy. It was horrible. I also, while I was pregnant, started feeling something growing in my stomach. Uh that that was the child, other than the child, I felt like a very hard lump underneath my ribs that was getting bigger, and they're like, it's a lipoma. And I'm like, I know what a lipoma is. I had one on my back, those are squishy and you can move them. This is like getting big. So that was going on, and it finally at about 22 weeks, I like demanded from a surgeon, I was like, something is wrong. Like, you need to go check this out. So they went in there, they'll be like, fine, we'll just take it out. Like, you have to stay awake for the surgery because you have a baby in you, but we can take it out. I was like, okay, knowing that once they got in there, and sure enough, I'm awake. And they're like, I was like, oh, so you're taking it out or are you just taking a piece of it? And they're like, Yeah, we're just gonna have to take a piece to be biopsied. And I was like, Yeah, that's what I thought. Like having this conversation in the light while they literally have my stomach open and my baby's kicking my bladder. I'm like, this is that was like one of my lowest moments. Probably we're like, oh my god, are they gonna let me die? Like, what is going on? So, long story short, I end up being diagnosed with this super rare sarcoma tumor. And they're like, All right, this thing's growing like crazy. We don't know anything about these things, but it needs to come out right after you have the baby. I'm like, okay, cool. So I have the baby, I have surgery on that three weeks later, uh, while I have a toddler and a newborn and a husband at work every day. Uh so as you're hearing, like running was not really like top of my mind.

SPEAKER_01: 32:36

More problems than running.

SPEAKER_02: 32:38

Yeah. Yeah. So then they come back and they're like, oh, we didn't get margins on it. So now you have to have another surgery. So I had another surgery a month later. When I woke up from that one, I was like, oh my God, what do they do? It to this day, it's the most painful thing I've ever experienced in my life, even more than childbirth. Like it was awful. And when I finally took all the bandages off, like my belly button was all the way on the right side of my body, and it looked like a whole chunk of me had been taken out. I was like, oh shit, what happened? Well, they it turned out they had taken like a big chunk of my rectus abdominis muscles, so now I'm missing one of my core muscles. My hip is still hurting. Like, oh good God. Um, so I was trying to recover from that. That wasn't going well, but eventually tried to start running again um through all of that. Felt awful. Uh, then I broke my leg as well. And then I had another abdominal surgery to try to because the the piece of my ab that was left was like splitting away from my left ab, so then I couldn't engage my core. So it wasn't even just running. It was like I couldn't even sit up properly. Uh, it was a mess. I eventually had like surgery for that as well. Um and then it was when I woke up from that. So this is all over, I think, a five, six year period. I was starting to recover from that. I was starting to feel better in my core, and I was like, God damn it, my hip still hurts. Like, we are still not done. Like, I kind of put it on the back burner the whole time because there was always like something bigger. It was either a kid or a broken bone or this freaking tumor situation that was like obviously the thing I was most worried about. I had two kids, and like they're like, Oh yeah, it's choking out your intestines. I was like, What? Uh okay, let's just get it out so that I'm around for my kids. Sounds good. I kind of like the whole thing was a blur. Um, I still have to do that.

SPEAKER_00: 34:49

And during this time, what is your relationship to running? Is it something of the past or something maybe try a few miles?

SPEAKER_02: 34:58

And yeah, I still was trying, I never stopped trying. I mean, I mean every once in a while I would like be like, I give up, and then that would last for a little bit. And then I would always just kept, even though there wasn't a race on the horizon, like I just kept trying. Um could not quit trying. I was real, I realized throughout that I was like, oh, I really do like love just the simple act of going and running in the mountains. Also, I had like moved to Rightwood, like to be in the mountains and be where I wanted to. And then it was almost immediately after I moved there, I left for two months and then came back and got injured. And like I never really got to enjoy this beautiful place that I lived in. Um, so I just kept trying. And there were, I want to be clear, there were like glossing over it, but there were a lot of like really good moments in there for sure. I had runs and, you know, just time out there, if you will, that even though I wasn't racing, I was still like, oh, I like I'm still getting this piece of myself back. And that's I think that's what drove it of like I have already gone through so much stuff. And now that this hip is still freaking bothering me, no, we are gonna figure this out. So I reignited, trying to find a doctor that would listen to me, and it took like four or five more. And I almost gave up because I had a surgeon tell me the the most gaslighty thing I've ever heard. He said, Frankly, you're not worth fixing.

SPEAKER_01: 36:31

What the fuck?

SPEAKER_02: 36:33

Yep, because I was not, he basically he's like, Well, it's not like you're some elite athlete, which was super triggering for me because I'm like, Oh, I actually used to be decent. I'm just not gonna have this injury for a while, and then also because I was over 40, and I was like, why does everyone keep telling me that I like turned 40 and my life's over? Shut up, like believe the term geriatric, geriatric, yes. I was just like, this is so insane. So after that, I went back to the other doctor that had referred me to him, and I told him what had happened. He's like, Well, I can refer you outside of Kaiser, which I was like, okay, is it just more of the same? And he's like, It could be, but if you want to see another specialist, and that ended up being the guy. Uh, he listened to me. He was like, Look, like, he looked at the exact same imaging and was like, There actually is a little bit of leakage of this dye from everything that you're telling me and all the work that you've done. That is telling me there is a very large tear behind there that we can't see. You can't see them all in imaging. He's like, mostly they're not going to do a surgery unless they see significant tearing, or they or we rely on patient reporting. And he also told me, he's like, You we usually we do try to tell people not to have the surgery because it might not be successful. You're gonna have to put so much work into your recovery, and if you don't, you could end up worse off. And he's like, But frankly, I believe that you you wouldn't be here if you weren't gonna put that work in. So did the surgery, and I could tell immediately when I could wait bear. I was like, Oh, yep, that was it. We fixed it. Wow.

SPEAKER_00: 38:23

Yeah. Are you are you mad about the years you lost trying to figure this out?

SPEAKER_02: 38:29

Yeah, so angry. Uh I lost, you know, I was 35. I lost, kind of lost my best years, really. Um, and I'm definitely to the point now where I don't have any competitive ambitions anymore. Like I'm just trying, I'm still only a little over a year, closer to a year and a half now, post-op. And I was told about two years until you really feel like you could do that again. I tried to race this year, it did not go well. And I was reminded by other people who have had the surgery. They're like, two years. I was like, okay. So I I'm still really optimistic that maybe in the coming years I can still maybe just physically do it again. But I definitely have lost any sort of like drive to try to keep pushing the needle. I feel like that's probably gone for me.

SPEAKER_00: 39:28

And what would be like a win? Like a coming back to running.

SPEAKER_02: 39:35

Well, I think already there has been. Like I've been working with a coach all year, and even though I've had which I've never done before, I finally was like, man, I gotta get out of my head. I just want to leave the programming to someone else. Otherwise, I just always doubt if I'm doing enough or not enough, or this is the exact same reason I work with a coach.

SPEAKER_01: 39:56

Yeah, it's not it removes the anxiety.

SPEAKER_02: 39:59

It removes the anxiety, exactly. So it has been wonderful. Um, and there's been a ton of setbacks through since I started working with her. Like, you know, I've had to take a lot of time off and I've had little things, but in general, like I'm much more consistent than if I really look at where I am right now versus last year. There's like big periods of consistency. I definitely feel a lot stronger, and I'm confident that if I keep building, that if I still want to enter a race, that that is gonna be there for me in the future. Whereas I cannot like the last seven years, I was honestly like, I don't know if I will ever be able to do this again, like physically. Um, because I my hit, my it basically felt like my leg was not attached to my body in a lot of ways, where it was like I could feel that everything around my pelvis was like trying to like grab at my leg. And when I would run, like my glute wouldn't engage. It just felt like my body felt completely foreign to me.

SPEAKER_03: 41:05

Wow.

SPEAKER_02: 41:05

And once it's all kind of back online, like it feels like my body again. And I like I don't know how else to describe it other than I'm like, oh, this feels possible now. Like it's just a thing I know in my body. Wow, if that makes any sense.

SPEAKER_00: 41:20

So maybe like winning an ultra isn't in the cards, but maybe a moment like when you crested Kroger's canteen and had that moment is in the cards.

SPEAKER_02: 41:32

Correct. That's all I want, honestly. Because when I look back at like that race, you know, like hard rock, it wasn't the finish for me at all. It was like being out there, and I think that's probably when I really look back at all my favorite races and moments in races, even races that I've won or done really well in, it was never the finish. It was always something that happened out during the race. And those moments will still be able to will still be there to happen, whether I'm in the front or the very back. Like exactly I kind of had that experience already. I tried to run Cascade Crest this year, and I floated all the way to I was chasing cutoffs, uh, which I've never done in my life. I was at the very back of the pack, and I still like was finding uh moments of joy as my hip was giving out and I was literally falling to the ground and I knew my race was over. There was still a lot of joy in it, and I still was like making connections with other runners out on the trail. And I I was like, even though it was like a painful thing to have experienced and to have to DNF and all of that, I looked back on it and I was like, yeah, but it didn't sour me on it, it didn't make me be like, oh yeah, I'm not I don't want to do this anymore. I'm like, oh yeah, that's why I want to get back to it. It's not really about the finish for me, it's more about just being part of it and not like I don't want to say pain-free. It's like pain that I purposely inflict on myself from running, not pain that exists in my body because of medical research.

SPEAKER_01: 43:04

Yeah, we I mean we started this with pain one and pain two.

SPEAKER_02: 43:07

Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 43:08

Voluntary pain is much more acceptable.

SPEAKER_02: 43:11

Yes, yes. I want to be the one causing myself the pain, not all of these stupid hitches in my gide up, if you will.

SPEAKER_01: 43:19

My dad never understood that like why why you would voluntarily sign up for something that would cause you pain. I could never explain it to him what the what the difference was. But there is a difference. It's uh Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 43:39

And I don't think I don't think of myself as like a masochist by any means. Like I'm not out there searching for it. Like I said, I'm sitting there at 60 70 being like, don't come. I know it's coming. Just like postpone it. Like, let me get a few extra miles. Like, I'm not like, yeah, I want to hurt at all. But there is just something. I don't know about what it takes to just keep going in those moments. Like when it's not even like you're not gonna win. You're not gonna like there's no no one's making you do it, and like somehow you just like will yourself to do it and like I don't know proving you're capable of this act that causes pain.

SPEAKER_01: 44:25

Do you do you feel similarly when you consider the the length and the amount of trials and tribulations you've had through this journey? You know, you mentioned like Cascade Crest and DNFing there. Is that is that part of the pain of coming back? Is that the pain one and pain two of like this larger journey?

SPEAKER_02: 44:49

Huh. I don't know. I don't think I've ever really thought about that, but I think it's because maybe maybe it's because I like our sport teaches us those lessons in a day all the time. And so I don't, I mean, it's why I wouldn't give up when a doctor told me no, you're not worth fixing. Or another doctor, when I wanted to have the reconstruction, he was like, Oh, uh, on my abdominal thing, sorry. Um, he he's like, Oh, there's nothing I can do for you. And I like didn't even get upset. I was just like, that's stupid. I reached back out and found a different doctor, and they're like, Oh, yeah, we could totally fix this. Like, yeah, this this is what we can do. Like, I just don't really accept anybody ever telling it, like, oh, you can't do this anymore, which people in my life, um, I think, especially people that don't run ultras, like are like, oh, well, you know, you just don't need to run that far anymore. Like, that's foolish to think that after all you've been through that you're gonna run a hundred again. Why don't you just go run a 5k or something? I'm like, 5K. 5K's hurt really bad, and I would be terrible at it. Um, also I hate running on roads. Anyway, I just don't nothing feels like something that I might not be able to get over until I don't get over it, maybe. And like, how is that for me to know? Like, I never know what's gonna happen, but I'm not gonna ever accept if there's some I guess it's if there's something that I can do, then I'm gonna do that. I'm not gonna just like ever accept okay, you're you're an injured piece of shit now. Yeah you're retired. Yeah, I talked about my forced retirement, but plan to come out of retirement. I like I don't know. It's just not something that I'm gonna accept. So maybe maybe that comes from all those years of running the races and knowing that lesson, and maybe that's also why I never considered it, because it's just kind of like part of my life or my lifestyle is to just keep going.

SPEAKER_01: 46:53

Very persistent, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 46:55

That same like that same ability to suffer and that same strength. Did that lend itself in childbirth?

SPEAKER_02: 47:04

Uh yes and no. Um one one thing that was really hard. So with my first, I am getting kind of forced into a um how do you call it? No, where they I'm blanking on the term. Where they uh no the how much does John know? Where they make it, where they indu in do induction. Thank you. Why could I not think of that word? Probably because I did not want an induction. Uh I kind of went too long and they were like forcing me into it. Um, and so I went in, I had the induction. Um, and I try I was trying to do it like without an epidural and stuff because I feel like there's a lot of that, like, oh, we're strong, we're tough, like we can take it, we got to do it natural, whatever. And I went like 17, 18 hours having like from the induction, a lot of times when they give you the pitocin and stuff, you can start having like rolling contractions that go into your back. And I just remember at some, I was down on the floor of the hospital puking into the drain that was in the like on the tile floor. On the floor, and Dom was like, like, why don't you just take the medicine? Like, it's not in the middle ages, just yeah, but I like I think that my whole like I can suffer, I know how to be tough sort of thing was like I felt like I failed when then I was like, okay, I'll take the induction. And then when it didn't proceed, I had it in my head, like because that then I was I was in labor forever longer than it took me to run hard rock, which was 39, that was just under 40 hours. Yeah, and this was over 40. Uh, it was terrible, but eventually that's why I end up pain. Yeah, that's why I ended up having the emergency C-section because it just went on too long. I was pushing for like three and a half hours, and she was running out of fluid, and we we had to go get her out the sunroof. Uh, that's what I tell her. Um but yeah, I think afterwards I had a lot of shame around the whole thing. Um, I I was like, I should have been tougher, I should have done it differently. I should have fought for myself more of not having the induction, and then did the epidural slow the whole thing down. Now, by by the way, the doctor was like, no, she was stuck on your freaking hip bone. Like Dom told me, he's like, I saw her. She was like stuck. Her head like could not get out. Like it was it was your bones, not anything else. But I just I don't know. I had a lot of sadness and shame about like that. Maybe I did it wrong. Um, that the result could have been different. Um, if maybe I had been tougher, which I don't know, it's silly. But I don't know.

SPEAKER_00: 49:56

Oh, the the the things we put on ourselves, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 50:00

But I will say, I will say with the second one, so then because of that, I almost freaking gave birth on the side of the freeway because I didn't know I was in labor. I was like, it's supposed to hurt more than this. So I was in labor for like 24 hours at home because I also we live so far away. I'm like, I want to drive all the way freaking down there. And then in COVID times, they made me come back. Like we've arranged for our neighbors to watch the kid, watch our other kid because she couldn't come down because of the whole COVID thing. Um, so it was a whole thing. So I was just like, I'm not gonna go. And then like the whole thing where like the water breaks on the floor, and you're like, ah, now that happened. So we're like racing down the pass at like two o'clock in the morning with like a storm, like a snowstorm coming in, and showed up, and they're like, Oh god, this baby is like coming. And I was like, No, I want the happen to her all this time. You're like, I know what I want this time. No, so long story short, I made it just in time that they're like, if you can sit still, I'm like, I will sit still, I will be so good. So I had like the second one, it was a way better situation. They had let me because they were gonna let me V back uh because I wanted to avoid another C-section, and it all worked out the second time, but I had way less uh preconceptions of how tough I should be throughout it. I was just like, I just want a healthy birth, and it was so freeing. Like, I feel like I the second birth healed me from the first one, and then I was like, okay, uh kind of reset the way that I think about myself.

SPEAKER_00: 51:41

That first one sounded kind of traumatic.

SPEAKER_02: 51:44

Yeah, yeah, it wasn't the greatest, but you know what?

SPEAKER_00: 51:48

We were both healthy and you know, and you have two beautiful girls that are uh starting running, right?

SPEAKER_02: 51:57

Oh yeah. My seven-year-old just ran a 31-minute 5k at altitude, like beating like a hill hilly at altitude, uh, like won the five the 10-year-old division at seven, including the boys, and was beating like people that we like running friends that we have. She went like flying past them at the end.

SPEAKER_00: 52:23

I love it.

SPEAKER_02: 52:24

I was unfortunately not there, uh, so I missed it, but yeah, she is she's insane, and the little one is chomping at her heels, so it's really fun.

SPEAKER_01: 52:35

Now you now you're in the fun part for sure.

SPEAKER_02: 52:39

And I I gotta tell you, that's the other part too. Of like between that and skiing, I have like realized if I don't keep pushing myself to get back to some sort of level, I'm not gonna be able to enjoy this stuff with them the way I want to. Like, especially because Dominic will still be able to do it, so they'll choose to do it with him, and I won't get to have that. So it's a huge the motivator is less about the race, and it's more about just like being able to like run with them through high school if that if that's what they decide to continue to do, because I ran with my dad through high school, and I it was really I I don't know. I look back on that very fondly, and I think it like brought me a lot closer to my dad, and I want to have that sort of relationship with them.

SPEAKER_00: 53:26

So I love that. Well, Katie, this conversation has been great. We like to end our podcast by asking our um guests to share a piece of advice with our audience. It doesn't have to be about running, but it can be as well. Okay.

SPEAKER_02: 53:49

Uh I would say learn something new, like, especially as you're getting older. Like, don't stop learning. And I know that sounds I don't know, kind of like pie in the sky. And I don't necessarily mean like, oh, just like look up facts on Google or whatever. I mean specifically like pick something hard and scary and figure it out in your 40s. Like it is amazing. So for me, um, physically, it was learning to ski. Like I learned to ski in my mid-30s. Um wow. Got yeah, got really into it. It progressed through the whole long drawn-out story I just told you. Through all of that, like I was learning and working at skiing and then into backcountry skiing and to like ski mountaineering. I was learning this new skill, and it was really scary. I cried so many times, either in the backcountry or on the top of an icy black diamond, uh, just being goaded into things, as I always say, above my pay grade. And it was really scary, but like I was really, really progressing at it. Mind you, that's also how I broke my leg. And I still went back to I couldn't wait to get back to it, even after breaking my leg, because I did it doing something stupid. I wasn't even it wasn't even like a dangerous situation.

SPEAKER_01: 55:10

Getting injured skiing is par for the course. Sorry, what yes, getting injured skiing, that's for sure that a lot of people go through.

SPEAKER_02: 55:17

Yes, yes. Um, and then even it progressed all the way into like or no, it was this year, this spring. I did my first scheme race, which is something that I never would have thought in a million years that I would have the confidence to do. And I enjoyed it, and I was like, I'm gonna be terrible at this. And I wasn't, I was actually pretty good at it. I was like, whole thing.

SPEAKER_01: 55:40

Like you got the end in, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 55:42

42 years old, and I like hopped into a schemo race. Like, and it just, I don't know, it takes this thing. Running is still my like number one passion. I will fight till the day they put me in the grave to get back to doing it the way that I want to. Um, but it I don't know, it takes this thing off because I'm like, well, an athlete first. I wasn't a runner my whole life. I played soccer, I was on a swim team, I danced my whole life, I did all of these other things. Um, and it got me back to like that of learning something new and pushing myself and using the skills. Like the whole reason I like did okay at the schema race was not my downhilling. It was like the running, all the running and training I was doing was translating really well to just going uphill really hard. I've never felt full body fatigue like I did going up the second climb of the course I did. And it, I don't know, it's just I think it's the thing that is like really kept me going and not really like wallowing, I guess, and being sad about like running's not the same and you know, it's changed so much. Um, and that you know, that's a physical one, but then also it can be like just picking a topic too. Like, I think especially at this age, like for me, it's space. Like I've gone full into like you're a space nerd now? Yes. Like I read, I read like physics books, I like do like listen to all these podcasts in the car all the time. Like, I'm just trying to absorb as much knowledge about space and the universe as I can because I'm fascinated by it. And it's like, yes, this was not my profession, it's never going to be, but like I can still learn all this stuff that because it was like a moment where I was like, man, I wish I would have taken more of this kind of stuff in college. I wish I would have gone this direction. I'm like, you still have a brain, like you can still learn, and you don't have to like put capitalism behind it. Like you don't have to like learn something to have a job.

SPEAKER_01: 57:45

Like you can just you can just learn.

SPEAKER_02: 57:49

And so I don't know, that ended up being a long response, but it really I think that through since this is about running with problems and I shared a big long challenge, I feel like that that's probably the thing that has kept me the most just still like excited about tomorrow all the time. Is I'm like, ah, I'm still like figuring things out. Like chapters might be closing, but new ones are opening like all the time. If you just keep going and keep following what you're interested in, it doesn't have to be this like death sentence, even if like the thing you love most has changed.

SPEAKER_00: 58:24

Um, so I love that. I think that'll resonate with a lot of our listeners. We have listeners with spinal cord surgery, open heart surgery.

SPEAKER_01: 58:33

We have listeners who work on satellites, you know, and they'd be interested in the space part. Oh no. I went to space camp for three years in a row. So jealous. Oh spacecamp was so much fun. At the end of Space Camp, they would do like a mission, and everyone had to be like a role in the mission, and then the counselors would like throw in like they basically, you know, trigger something in the system, and something would go wrong. And you'd have to like your giant manuals and you'd have to figure out how to fix it. And uh I always I always fixed it really quickly, and people got annoyed that I was fixing their problems instead of what I was fixing problems. Yeah, but yeah, space games were yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 59:22

On that note, thank you for being on Running with Problems, Katie.

SPEAKER_02: 59:29

Yeah, thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01: 59:31

Thanks to all the listeners, and we'll see you next time.