Welcome And Weekly Training

SPEAKER_03 0:10

Hello and welcome to Running with Problems. My name is John Ison. I'm Miranda Williamson. Running with Problems is a podcast that explores the problems encountered during life in running. Today on the podcast, we have Michael Miles.

SPEAKER_01 0:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 0:26

Who discusses the connection between business and leadership and running?

SPEAKER_01 0:32

Yeah. He's done some really cool events and we get into it with him. He's someone I met through the other part of my life, which is working with entrepreneurs.

SPEAKER_03 0:44

Yeah, but before we get into that, Miranda, how are you doing?

Cocodona Shock And Women Winning

SPEAKER_01 0:48

I'm doing good. I had a great weekend of training, actually diving back into full-on structured training and ramping up the miles. So I had a solid Saturday 16-mile run up Green Mountain and around with Brendan and McKenzie, some of the usual crew. And then Sunday I ran with this new Sunday group group I've been running with. And it was like a nice speedy nine-mile group.

SPEAKER_03 1:16

Did you see what happened at Coca-Dona?

SPEAKER_01 1:19

Oh my God. We have not even talked about that.

SPEAKER_03 1:23

Not at all.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

Do you want to tell our listeners if they're in the dark?

SPEAKER_03 1:27

No, I don't want to tell anybody. You go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

History has been made. Rachel Entrikken won overall and broke the course record at Coca-Dona.

SPEAKER_03 1:41

The overall course record.

SPEAKER_01 1:42

The overall course record to be perfectly clear.

SPEAKER_03 1:47

It is well, you mentioned to me that you saw a little interview with her and you loved something she said. Can you tell the people what that was?

SPEAKER_01 1:55

Yeah. She said that she started running and at mile 50, she was out in front and she kept self-doubting herself and was like, Why am I so far ahead? I'm gonna blow up. What are you doing? And she had to work to overcome that self-doubt and came up with her mantra that remained her mantra for the rest of the race, which was, why not me? Why shouldn't I try? I've had success at this race before. Why not me? And she kept that going. And it just really shows that leaders, some of the leaders who we've had on this podcast, like Camille Heron, who have paved the way for women in this sport to do big things, to do incredible things, matters. Representation matters so much to have a goal post to look forward to and to know that it's possible. It's possible for someone like you to accomplish these incredible feats of endurance. And Rachel Indrigen is making history and paving the way for future generations of women to do big, amazing things like beatmen. Stomp them into the ground.

SPEAKER_03 3:24

Well, I don't know if we need to go that far. Courtney DeWalter got second at the race, had an excellent performance. But coming up in third was Meg Eckert, who owns the six-day world record, who is another of these young female runners coming up in the sport at the very super long distance, right? The multi-day distance, right? So Rachel and Meg are two rising stars in the sport. And it's just really cool to see them show their stuff at this race. I mean, I thought it was great. I had trouble personally watching it because of all the emotions that uh because I wasn't there running it. I don't know if anybody, if you don't know, I dropped out from the race due to health issues um prior to the start. Like I didn't start the race. Um, and so it was a little hard for me to watch the coverage this year. Yeah. It had a bit of FOMO.

SPEAKER_01 4:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:18

But despite that, the performances those women put on were absolutely incredible. It was great to watch.

SPEAKER_01 4:24

Absolutely incredible. I want to say one more thing about Rachel winning this race. And one thing it's it's like a brought up in me. Um we often think about men being dominant in sports. And it's not just something that we think about, it's something we're told as women all the time. From being very young, we're told that men are better. Men are better at everything.

SPEAKER_02 4:54

I mean.

SPEAKER_01 4:54

And I think about the way that our society is structured and the w who invented these sports and whose bodies they're they're built and designed to benefit. And then we see events like ultra running and these super long distances emerging, and we see that they are desired, they're not sports that necessarily have the same gap in performance that some of these other sports have.

SPEAKER_03 5:28

Especially at the very extreme distances.

SPEAKER_01 5:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:32

I mean, over multiple days, does the difference between a male and a female body, you know, does do those graphs sort of intersect? And does the female and better the better endurance in female bodies like overtake the slight difference in muscle size?

SPEAKER_01 5:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 5:51

From a physiological evolution point of view, and not you know, I think it's pretty interesting.

Community Shout Outs And Race Weekends

SPEAKER_01 5:56

It's really interesting. And my point in saying this is that um we've been fed this narrative that men are stronger and better at athletic endeavors than women. And I want to challenge that's not objectively true. Correct. I want to challenge everyone to reconstruct that idea.

SPEAKER_03 6:19

That's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 6:20

So cool.

SPEAKER_03 6:21

Well, I want to give a shout out to friends of the podcast. We had uh Greg Bergeron who finished Coca-Dona 250. He was on the wait list and he got in. Big congrats to Greg. And congrats to Steph Manty, who won the Bradshaw Brute 80 Mile.

SPEAKER_01 6:43

She did.

SPEAKER_03 6:44

So congratulations to Steph.

SPEAKER_01 6:46

Congrats, Steph. John, how are you doing?

SPEAKER_03 6:49

How am I how am I? I'm doing okay. I was out at uh Quad Rock uh this past weekend. It was a really fun event. Uh I was helping out at the Towers Aid Station, sort of the middle of the course. Got to see a bunch of friends finish that race. Shout out to Ryan Lagerquist and uh Christy Amaru and Aaron Logier, all finished. Uh they had differing qualities of their day. Silke. Oh, and Silka, of course, Silke. Friend of the Pod. Who's been on the podcast? Silke Coster. Uh I was hanging out with Silke's husband, Ryan, and a bunch of the Rocky Mountain Runner folks uh out there hanging out at Towers Aid. And big congrats to everyone who finished the race. Um, just really fun. Uh, I really enjoyed it. I played around with my black and white camera and just really enjoyed seeing everyone and helping people all day. It was cool, despite the 3 a.m. wake up.

SPEAKER_01 7:44

Ooh, maybe we'll um get one of those photos to throw up on the Instagram. Sure.

POTS Update And Finding New Training

SPEAKER_03 7:49

I got some photos. Awesome. And uh and I just got a row machine. So this morning was my first rowing workout on my new rowing machine. Did uh 30 minutes. I might have had Claude, I may or may not have had Claude put together a half marathon rowing uh training plan. So we'll see what happens with that.

SPEAKER_01 8:08

We'll continue to check in.

SPEAKER_03 8:09

I'm just like, I've missed training. Like I've I haven't trained since March. So it's been over two months. And I just miss it. I miss the regimented workouts. I miss like pushing my heart rate, pushing my well, my heart rate's been pushed no matter what, but I miss like the feeling of actually working hard and your heart rate like sort of catching up. What I'm experiencing when I run is that my heart rate goes insane way before my muscles start to feel fatigue, way before my breath starts to feel fatigued. It's just the one part of my body is going wild, and everything else is like, wait, but we're not really working that hard. Whereas when I row, which apparently this is all supported by the POTS diagnosis stuff, is that like because it's postural, that's what the P stands for in POTS, it's all about whether I'm standing. And then I had another piece of data come out where uh at the day after the race, where I was standing all day and I didn't really eat well, I didn't drink well, both of which are supposed to be things that help my pots. So not doing that well should have hurt my pots. But the next day I felt really good on a hike with my friend Eric. And I'm wondering if standing a lot more, maybe standing at my desk with a standing desk, you know, because I have a I have a sedentary job. I work as a software engineer. Um maybe standing could be something that I can use to help my pots. So yeah, trying to attack my health thing uh from multiple sides, but a lot of positive signs there. Really enjoyed hanging out with the community on Saturday. And yeah, um, so I'm doing good. I'm doing good.

SPEAKER_01 9:54

Glad to hear it. And I look forward to doing a full episode on all of this and diving a little deeper.

SPEAKER_03 10:01

So is there any call out from our conversation with Michael Miles that you would like to, you know, call out specifically for our listeners?

SPEAKER_01 10:09

Yes. So I don't think we got into it in this episode, but Michael Miles is also a leadership coach. And he has a website that we'll link to in the show notes. Um where folks, if you're looking for leadership development, he's a great coach. And he's really good specifically with people who are interested in blending their leadership and business development with endurance sports and endurance endeavor endeavors as like a work-life balance and a reflective practice.

SPEAKER_03 10:49

One of the takeaways I had from our conversation was his commentary on how most leaders, business leaders, do not value work-life balance enough.

SPEAKER_01 10:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 11:00

And that actually makes them worse as business leaders, or maybe it degrades their eventual ability because it has some sort of um effect on long term. Yeah. So I took that away and I I really appreciate that because I discovered work-life balance only in the last like 10 years. You know, the first 10, 15 years of my career, I definitely did not have a very good work-life balance. And it has made me better at my job. And so I thought that was a really good takeaway, something that I agreed with.

SPEAKER_01 11:32

And the thing that he likes about running, which he'll get into a little bit more in the episode, is that it also has that community aspect. And that is a big piece of keeping work life balance as well, is having that social component to your life as well.

SPEAKER_03 11:52

Yeah, right at the end of the episode, we uh I asked him a question about, you know, whether, you know, whether he needed more than running outside of work, right? He talked about all the things you can get from having a good balance with your life. And I and I questioned whether, you know, running gave all that to him. And I remember his answer is just like, yeah, running gives everything to you. You know, you get that community, you get that the exercise, you get that personal challenge, something to focus on, you get adventures and trips to go do these races or events or whatever. Uh, you get both the daily change you need, and you also get the event to go for. It's just like a great microcosm of like something that wraps up all this. You know, you we talk about Maslow's hierarchy of needs, you know, for humans, and running provides so much of that as a companion to a standard American work week.

SPEAKER_01 12:51

The other thing that Michael blends with his running is family time.

SPEAKER_03 12:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:57

We get into that a little bit, and he's able to bond with his sons through these endurance events, which is just really cool.

Meet Michael Miles And His Path

SPEAKER_03 13:04

Yeah, that's why you have children. So they can run ultras with you. Absolutely. All right. I think we've bantered enough. Uh without further ado, Michael Miles on running, business, life, leadership.

SPEAKER_01 13:21

Enjoy. Hi, Mike Miles. Welcome to the pod.

SPEAKER_05 13:35

Hello, guys. Thank you for having me this afternoon.

SPEAKER_01 13:38

So we go way back, back at my days at Watson Institute. Long time ago, million years ago. Yes, not a million. Four.

SPEAKER_05 13:50

I rounded up to the nearest, the nearest million.

SPEAKER_01 13:53

You just round up. You were teaching at ASU at the time.

SPEAKER_05 13:57

Yeah, I I was teaching uh it was shortly after I left Microsoft. So I worked at Microsoft for uh also a million years, but I retired from Microsoft after that million years and was teaching entrepreneurship uh uh down in Arizona. Yeah, that's right. And we and we had you come on and represent uh Watson because we're gonna do a collaboration between the university and the Watson Institute where you were working at the time.

SPEAKER_01 14:19

Right. So I was helping select entrepreneurs for a fellowship.

SPEAKER_05 14:23

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:24

That was a lot of fun. And we bonded over your love for endurance sports.

SPEAKER_05 14:29

Yeah, you know, I I had just gotten into endurance sports at the time. Uh, and I wouldn't say I'm a professional by any means, but I sure enjoy it. Uh and the crossover between that and and leadership and the community, you know, there's just so many boxes of that checks for me. It's it's become my new passion. But it, you know, fairly late late in life that I found that uh that passion for sure.

SPEAKER_01 14:53

Tell us about that journey.

SPEAKER_05 14:55

Oh uh, you know, I worked at Microsoft for about 20 years, uh, and it went and it really was an amazing career. It really was an amazing career, but it was busy. I was traveling a lot. Uh at one time I had teams in 12 locations around the world, uh, at about, you know, maybe 1500 people in my organization, all up. And so I was always on the road. And I said, you know, I just don't have time to work out or stay in shape, or you know, I can't predict when I'm gonna be home, so I can't sign up for runs and da da da. But but the truth is that I didn't make the time. You know, you can always say you don't have the time, but you know, you make time for the things that are important, and it's probably a reflection of my priorities at the time more than my schedule. Uh, I would say.

SPEAKER_01 15:43

Yeah, that's a good um like distinction. I just read an uh article about a guy who um ran a 5K in an airport bathroom.

SPEAKER_03 15:54

Oh what wait, that's not where I thought that the story was going.

SPEAKER_05 16:00

You know, of all the exotic places you could choose to run a 5k, the airport bathroom uh has to be in the top 10.

SPEAKER_03 16:07

Did he have an official timer? Yeah, like an RFID.

SPEAKER_00 16:11

I uh yeah, I don't know. Remember, he was timing himself. Yeah, I don't know, remember what his time was though.

Identity After Microsoft And Running

SPEAKER_05 16:18

You know, if you want to sneak in and do it, I know the guy that ran the Heathrow airport marathon. Oh, which is also uh like illegitimate, like it's not a thing. Like between us on the phone or on this on the podcast here, it's really not a thing. It's secret that runs it uh and you run through like you have to go through security, of course, and then run in the tunnels underneath the oh, so there's a route, there's a specific route you need to take. Yeah, and a winner with medals and whatever. And some of it is they're running away from the security of the city. Oh my gosh, of course. That sounds like I haven't done it yet underground and threatening to go over and do it one of these days. Oh that'd be fun. It's on your list. Yeah, it's definitely it's gotta be a bucket list uh thing. Okay, so you didn't make priorities. I really just didn't make the time. Uh and when I left the company, when I left Microsoft, one of the surprising things for me was I really like I I couldn't introduce myself as a Microsoft general manager anymore. Oh, your identity. It was really like who who am I now? Like how do I introduce myself now? Um and it was People say, What do you do? Yeah, exactly. Like, what do I like? I'm semi-retired, still I'm semi-retired. Um, and I think running kind of gave me that identity. Not because I was coming in first. Like I remember over the last five years, I think I've come in first twice. Always first in my age group, not first. But uh but first in my age group, uh, which I'm still gonna claim it's first. Um but it really became my identity, really became like I like doing hard things. Uh I may not be first, but I'm always gonna finish. Um and then I started to reflect a lot on the crossover between endurance running and and leadership, uh, which is another lot of the themes that I work on in my leadership practice, is you know, this crossover between endurance running and leadership.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

So what tell us about a little bit about that first big goal, your first big endurance event.

SPEAKER_05 18:35

The first uh, you know, my son, my youngest son, he got tricked into running the Seattle Marathon. So Seattle Marathon runs the Sunday in uh of Thanksgiving weekend. So a bit like Boulder, I'm assuming, like cold and drizzly, and like it's not a day that you really feel like you want to go go out and run. Is that what Thanksgiving's like here?

SPEAKER_01 18:56

No, no, okay.

SPEAKER_05 18:57

It's not cold and drizzly. What is it in Boulder? Uh over Seattle.

SPEAKER_00 19:01

Maybe snowy and sunny.

SPEAKER_05 19:02

Oh, okay. Yeah, in Seattle, it's like drizzly and rainy and very different here.

SPEAKER_03 19:08

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 19:08

Why do they hold the marathon in Thanksgiving? Well, you know, I'm okay being cold or I'm okay being wet. Yeah, like if you're cold and wet, that's like ugly. Um, so cold or wet, pick one of those, and I'm I'm quite fine, but cold and wet is is not a good thing. And so especially, you know, my finish times tend to start with a four. You know, I'll run 415 or 405 or something. Four hours kind of miserable in the rain and the cold and whatever is like a long time to be miserable out in the cold.

SPEAKER_04 19:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 19:39

But but my my son got tricked into doing it, and he's like at the time, anyway, he was not attention to detail was not his thing. He left home without his bib, he had to go back. He uh showed up, he ran to the finish line because he couldn't find parking close enough. So he ran, he said he ran about a mile and a half, and not to the finish line, I'm sorry, to the start line, and they had already started, they were already running, and so he asked, Can I start? He said, Yeah, they started 30 minutes ago, but you can, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 20:09

And so I mean the the start line timing system still works, yeah, is it still on?

Road Vs Trail And Traditions

SPEAKER_05 20:14

Uh so he uh he kind of held on to his bib, uh like he didn't even attach it, hit it on and ran and he caught up with a buddy of his who he was supposed to run with. Uh and he ended up with a with a gun time of less than four hours. Oh nice. And his first time ever, like, okay. Uh and then he encouraged me to do it. And so that was my first big run as Seattle Marathon. And I've run that Seattle Marathon with or without him ever since then. Uh, not because I like road running or running the Sunday in Thanksgiving Thanksgiving weekend, uh, but because just this tradition uh now. Most of the things I do now are trail running or uh vertical endurance events or even a couple Spartan events from time to time, that kind of thing. But roadrunning is not really a for a variety of reasons, is not really my thing uh so much anymore.

SPEAKER_01 21:05

Yeah, I just repurchased my first pair of road shoes in like five years.

SPEAKER_05 21:10

Yeah. So why why? Why for you? I'm I'm interested to compare notes. Like, why not road running for you and and and John for you? I'm assuming you're not a roadrunner either.

SPEAKER_03 21:18

Well, I mean, I would like to connect with what you're saying about like something you run every year. And even if it doesn't align with what your style has become and like what your preferences are now, the fact that like you have something you come back to almost every year or every year, I think that's really important, at least the way I like to engage with running. Yeah. We have we have boulder boulder and we have this lead up 5k series to boulder boulder. And those are all road running races. Those are the only road running races I do every year, but I do them, I try to do them every year. And so I've got these little 5Ks and like run this um boulder boulder. It's like a 10K here. And I think having that yearly just Tradition of like, oh, at this time of year, I focus on this thing. It's slightly different than what I do the rest of the year. And I think that mesh of it being different. So I'm not tired of road running because I don't roadrun most of the time.

SPEAKER_02 22:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:12

And it being a tradition. So, like, you know, I have people I do it with, I have friends, I have a community that engages with this particular race that's different than the community I engage with with all my other races. So I think it's it's literally the combination of it's something different, but also a tradition that really helps me, you know, uh keep things different every year. You know, running can get stale. Yeah. It is, it is just moving your two feet for thousands, thousands of miles a year. But uh, you know, having that tradition do something different. Yeah. What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_01 22:46

Yeah. Um, I'm not much for the going back to doing things over and over as you dislike tradition.

SPEAKER_00 22:52

As you, as you know, where that we're we don't connect over that. I'm more like, what's new? What's next?

SPEAKER_01 22:58

What else can I do?

SPEAKER_03 23:01

Trail running's just so much more, I don't know, it's less repetitive on the muscles. Yeah. So I find that like my body is just better at trail running, it's better at being having varied footfalls. Like I tend to get injured if I roadrun too long.

SPEAKER_05 23:16

And I am and there's no shame in walking and trail running. Like, there's lots of times like, okay, there's like rocks, or I'm going uphill, or you know, I could otherwise risk death. I think I better walk right now. So and there's no shame in that. Road running, you kind of feel like you better run, otherwise, you're you're you'll look like the loser of the marathon.

DNFs Time Cuts And Hard Lessons

SPEAKER_03 23:33

There's a little bit of like there's masochism on both sides, okay. Like trail running has its own masochism. Don't let me don't let me tell you that it's not, but road running has this like moment by moment masochism of like, I have to keep my pace. Yeah, that is why I'm here. The only reason I'm running is to keep this pace. Yeah, and that masochism of like forcing yourself to output that energy. Uh you don't have that in trail running, it's a lot more relaxed. Now we get our masochism by going much longer and further. Yeah, yeah. But uh, I prefer that. I like the adventure of like how far you can go and the places you go. I mean, there's some great roadruns in the world, but trail running's got you know, you can be on top of any mountain and call it trail running, even if you hiked the whole way. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:17

Which um, Mike, I really want to get into your DNF, your 100k DNF.

SPEAKER_05 24:24

My 100k DNF. Tell me, remind my I I've had a few DNFs in my home.

SPEAKER_01 24:31

When was it last year?

SPEAKER_05 24:34

Yeah, yeah. Um my DNF. Oh, oh, I know. So, yeah, there's a there's a run here called Tiger Claw. Tiger Oh, Tiger Claw. Have you done Tiger Claw?

SPEAKER_03 24:46

I know of Tiger Claw. It's hosted by the Ginger Runner.

SPEAKER_05 24:50

That's the guy, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:51

Yeah, he's a he's a great YouTuber and documentarian.

SPEAKER_05 24:55

Yeah, and he created a race on Tiger Mountain, which I that that is the only race he produces, is is Tiger Claw.

SPEAKER_03 25:01

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 25:02

He and it's a cool race.

SPEAKER_01 25:04

Yeah, so I'd love to, I'd love just tell us the story. What happened? Oh my god.

SPEAKER_05 25:08

So so I have that story. I also have like last year's marathon that I wanted to dig into a little because that's also uh in my hall of shame kind of memory bank.

SPEAKER_01 25:16

Oh, okay. We can start with last year's marathon and then go to okay.

SPEAKER_05 25:21

So last year's marathon, so there's also life lesson that I'll share with you at the end here. If you see which is what we want.

SPEAKER_01 25:27

We want the life lesson.

SPEAKER_05 25:29

Yeah. If you stay tuned, I'll share the life life lesson uh with you as well. So uh the Seattle Marathon, like I said, I've I've run that for a number of years every year. Uh due to the Seattle Marathon. Um and uh last year, same thing, I ran the Seattle Marathon. My last year was a little bit of a tough year. Lost my mom, lost my mother-in-law also about the same time. So sorry for that. Um, wasn't sleeping well. You know, my my wife was not in great shape because, you know, emotionally because of that, and just wasn't a great, great thing. And I almost didn't run the Seattle Marathon this last year because like, you know, just being away and wasn't real, my head wasn't really in it and so forth. But I didn't, you know, it's this tradition, John, as you were saying, like it's this yearly TikTok that you know, it's what I do every year. Um, and so I I forced myself to run it. But I think I might have gotten three hours, four hours of sleep the night before. I was anxious, I wasn't keeping up on my training, I was like emotionally not in great shape, and whatever, right? Whatever, all of those things.

SPEAKER_04 26:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 26:30

And so I I show up, um, and the route is different. Like, why is the route different? Uh the first marathon I've ever run in, like, they don't have snacks at the aid station. Like, what kind of marathon doesn't have snacks at the aid stations? They have drinks, electrolytes, water, but no like who doesn't have snacks in aid station?

SPEAKER_03 26:49

No bananas, no goose.

SPEAKER_05 26:52

Zippo, zero. And I always start runs fasted. Like, I might start eating at mile 10 or mile 15 or something, but mostly I'm not, I'm I'm starting on an empty stomach almost always. And so I get to mile 15. I'm like, and also tired, like, uh, how much longer? Oh, I'm only at mile 15 and looking for a snack. No snacks, no, no energy, whatever, no gels, no, and I don't bring anything with me. Uh and I thought, okay, this is not gonna go out. So, my my typical thing is I try to find the pacer that I know I'm gonna beat. You know, find the 405 pacer or the 345 pacer, whatever, and run just ahead of them. And as I slow down in the second half, they kind of catch up to me and we finish together. That's my pacing strategy, if you want to call it. So as I'm like mile 15 or so, the pacer that I was running with, he starts getting ahead of me. Like, uh-oh, this isn't this isn't good. Um, and then mile 20, the next pacer, like catches up to me. Uh uh, that's not good.

SPEAKER_02 28:02

Oh no.

SPEAKER_05 28:03

And then by mile 24, mile 25, the five-hour pacer, I can see him behind me and hear him behind me. And I thought, oh my god, if the five-hour pacer passes me, there's gonna be hell to pay. The five-hour pacer is not going to pass me. And I thought I'm gonna stop and I'm gonna throw rocks at him, or I'm gonna trip him, or something to make sure he does not pass me.

SPEAKER_03 28:27

Um you know the enemy is the clock, right? Not the pacer, right? I don't know what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 28:32

It was that damn pace, not logical at this point. He has had no calories, remember?

SPEAKER_05 28:37

I I'd like to unpack what you're talking about, but that race, I'm telling you, it was that pace, that goblin pacer that it was on my heels.

unknown 28:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 28:45

Uh, and I finished minutes ahead of the five-hour pacer, the Seattle Marathon. Like the worst run, even my very first running of Seattle Marathon, I finished 35 minutes faster than that. Um, and so it wasn't good. But but you know, but you know, uh that my little life lesson there is like I I got the race that I'd prepared for, really, yeah, in sleep. Uh, if I read the fine print, I would have realized there's no snacks and it was a different route and more elevation and whatever. But I didn't do any of that. I just kind of rocked up and thought, oh, this is gonna be the same as last year, and it was definitely different than it was the previous year.

SPEAKER_03 29:24

And moreover, you were different.

SPEAKER_05 29:26

And I was different. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I mean, you get the results that you're kind of they kind of you you you prepare yourself to get, really. It's not how well you show up the day of, though there's part of it, but also how well you prepare for the day of uh that has such a such an impact. So I had to get a lot of things. So the the the other DNF that you're talking about, this tiger claw thing. So tiger claw, tiger mountain is a mountain in what we call the Isquah uh Alps. So it's a great trail running area uh in the center in in Seattle. Lots of trail uh or lots of trail running there. Um and you what you do is you climb up the mountain, but three different routes. One is long and not very steep. Uh, the last one is steep but very short. And you can kind of pick your adventure. You can do the long one first or the short one first. Uh, and so there's a little bit of strategy with it as well. As long as you do all three loops and check in uh at the end of all three loops, then you've kind of completed the the tiger claw. So I kind of like the strategy bit of that. And you know, even though you you kind of get to the same destination and you take different routes to get to the same destination, there's a lot of variety in how you how you run it uh as well. Um, and I ran the first two loops, but the last loop I um I was maybe five minutes from the cutoff. You know, the cutoff was I forget what it was, so I'm gonna make it up. It was like one o'clock. You had to pass this aid station by one o'clock.

SPEAKER_02 30:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 30:59

And it was 1255. And they said, Congratulations, you can go on the final loop. And I thought, Don't you love that? The the sweep is gonna come and get me off the mountain at some and I won't finish because my pace had been just so that was kind of a tactical uh decision that not to go that last, uh that last because I I I figured my pace wasn't gonna get back onto the age station uh in in time. And what I was gonna DNF anyway, uh, I think was kind of what I was thinking about.

SPEAKER_01 31:30

Ah, and what lessons did you take from that one?

SPEAKER_05 31:33

Uh I was certainly disappointed in in the results of that. Um I I had run a lot of distance in preparation, but I kind of trained on the long, less steep route. Oh, so oh, I'll just like get miles on feed, and that will equate to you know performance on that on the last loop. Um and so I I don't I don't think I simulated the the race as much as I as much as I should have. Um and I I had never actually run the the steepest route. I had never even done that trail ever before my entire life. It's very steep. Yeah, I've been on it. It's steep, yeah. It's you know surprisingly steep. It's not as steep as mountains behind me uh there, but it is steep. What what are those mountains? Uh that's the North Cascades. Uh North Cascades.

SPEAKER_01 32:27

And you were gonna share about one of your DNFs where you got it. Oh, I love DNF stories.

SPEAKER_05 32:32

DNF stories are like what makes I don't have any.

SPEAKER_03 32:35

Oh come on, stop it. Um yeah, my I DNF race last year. I DNF'd the Telluride Mountain Run. It was a it's a 24-mile run. The they have a 40, they have a 16, but I was doing the 24. Okay. And uh I got time cut and mile 16. But you didn't make a checkpoint, yeah. Well, I was just too slow. Oh, okay. There were three aid stations on the course, and they each had time cuts. And I was, I think 11 a.m. was the first one, and I was like a half hour or like, no, I was probably only 20 minutes ahead of that. And so, and then the next one, I was like a full half hour past the cutoff, and they were like, Yeah, there's no way you gotta run. And I had to run back to town because the road is out because I don't know, it's the mountains in Colorado. Sometimes the road's just out, right? Sure. So they're like, Yeah, they the way they drove there was like over the pass from Uray. So, like, yeah, they weren't gonna drive us back to Telluride, it would be much faster for us to walk our asses back.

SPEAKER_05 33:38

And how long of a walk was that once you DNF'd?

SPEAKER_03 33:42

I DNF'd at mile 16 and I ran over 22 and a half miles, so it was a six and a half mile hike back to the town.

SPEAKER_05 33:49

It's it's almost a walk of shame. I as punishment, you're gonna have to walk your ass out of it.

SPEAKER_03 33:55

I had a pretty good spirit about it because it was a race that I signed up for like last minute. Somebody was selling their bib, and so I wasn't, and it was also the shortest race I did last year. I did a bunch of hard races last year, and this one was just like, oh, it'll be a fun training run until you're ride, it'll be fun. So I was like, I still got my 20-something mile run in. I did almost all the course, but it really hit me because I had never actually been time cut at like a real ultra or a real race, like I've been time cut at like Barkley stuff, but like everyone gets time cut. Yeah, that's that's why you feel normal to get you get you sign up to get time cut at that shit. Yeah, but the it was a real big impact to me. Like, I just I had to find some excuses to why that happened. Like, what about and I now know in like retrospect that like there was a lot going on with my body and I haven't been giving it the time to rest, but um yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 34:50

That first DNF is hard, it's hard to avoid like what would you do? Have you done that race since?

SPEAKER_03 34:56

No, no, I I mean that was the first time I ever did it.

SPEAKER_05 34:58

So or what would you do just last year? Do that race race again.

SPEAKER_03 35:03

I mean, if I was gonna do that race again, I would take it a little more seriously to like this isn't just something I'm gonna sign up for the week before. I'm gonna like train at altitude because it has so much altitude, and you are up at altitude so much. And and my body when I got up there, it just wasn't responding. You know, I couldn't couldn't output energy, couldn't run downhills. And if I can't run downhills, I'm certainly not gonna do well. So I think that I just took away like, look, I just added too much to my calendar. I already had these four big races, I didn't need to add this one in the middle, and I didn't give it the space it needed. So that's but just admitting that you're not fucking Superman, I mean, it's so like you just want to believe your body can do it.

SPEAKER_05 35:46

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:47

And then and then you get time cutting, you're like, Oh, I have to admit.

SPEAKER_05 35:50

Maybe maybe there's a little reality rather for me. So, Miranda, on your non-DNFs. So tell us about a non-DNF.

SPEAKER_01 35:58

Not I mean, I guess I did DNF uh backyard ultra, but that was uh same thing like what John's talking about. You go into those yeah, everybody only only one, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 36:13

So how was the backyard your ultra though? Because I've I've been kind of thinking about doing that. Oh good.

SPEAKER_01 36:20

It was a lot of fun. This was Rocky's backyard ultra, and we did it for my 41st birthday, and the goal was to do 10 laps, so we run 41 miles, and that was really I credit that to finishing my hundred, actually. Oh, really? Because um I learned mental toughness there. I think I've mostly trained really well for everything I've ever done. So I've never had to push through like that point of real despair. And this was one of those events where I was trained well for it, but mentally it was very exhausting just to keep doing these boring loops.

SPEAKER_02 37:07

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:08

And John was doing poorly poorer than me earlier on. And so I was doing all these loops, and you have an hour to do them. I was doing them um 48 to 50 minutes just over and over and over again. And I come into the eighth loop and I'm just like, I'm so tired, bored. And John comes in and he's got like 56 minutes, like right on the edge.

SPEAKER_05 37:32

Right on the edge. So you like get a drink of water and you line up again, basically. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:37

And I've been sitting down eating a whole meal, and I'm like, I think I'm gonna quit. And John goes, You're gonna have to run a lot slower than that, that if you want to quit.

SPEAKER_00 37:48

I was like, I was like, Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03 37:52

Like, like just like you can want to quit. You can like have this thought. Your brain can go to the place of like, oh, quitting is a reasonable idea for whatever reason.

SPEAKER_05 38:02

Whatever reason, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:03

But if you look at it objectively, you were running the same pace you ran the first loop, so your body had not slowed down. Yeah, and like that's the essence of the of what I said. And I mean, I was it's not so well put together at the moment. It was just like you gotta run slower, but like you were still running well, like wait until your body starts to slow down before you like let your mind quit.

SPEAKER_05 38:25

So this isn't the case that it's usually like if well, for me anyway, yeah, I'm assuming the body gets like the mind gives out before the body does quite often.

SPEAKER_03 38:35

I think so. Yeah, I mean, yes, if you get to the point where the body's giving out and the mind hasn't, I think you've like I mean, that's like sort of that ideal that idealization of that backpack back a pack runner is like the person whose body is given up, but that mind won't quit. Yeah, you know, that's that's what we kind of celebrate in the sport, I think.

Running As Reflection For Leadership

SPEAKER_01 38:54

Now, Mike, I've been reading your blog and you take a lot of these lessons, like the one I just talked about and the one you talked about before. You get the race that you prepared for, and you write about them in comparison to leadership. What inspired you to do that, to take these lessons and translate them in that way?

SPEAKER_05 39:16

Uh, I wish I could say it was intentional the first few times I've done it, but uh I was doing something, I even forget what event, and and something was, you know, wasn't stressing me out, but definitely something that I was I was thinking about. And because running is a solitary thing for the for the most part, there's a lot of lonely miles um out there. And even if you're running alongside people, you're not always chatting with people. And so it's a lot of good time for reflection. And um, and I had some of my clearest revelations about that problem while I was just out running. Uh, and I thought maybe if I was intentional about that, um uh I could turn that into a little bit of a uh of a superpower or a little bit of a trick or a little bit of a reuse of that time to, you know, maybe not focus on how much running sucks, but how much you know, some of the problems that I'm uh that I'm working on. Uh and so yeah, almost every run now, uh training runs or or events, I pick a thing. Uh, and you know, sometimes I listen to podcasts like yours, I listened to on uh Saturday at an event, the Lonesome 100 or high lonesome 100 episode that got me through an event that I did on Saturday. But mostly it's it's uh here's a business challenge that a client is facing or uh or that I'm facing in my own business or or whatever. Uh and and I focus uh on those. And and it really is just this, you know, I I I get a lot of inspiration running, but about leadership problems or business problems or whatever.

SPEAKER_03 40:56

Why do you think that is?

SPEAKER_05 40:59

What about running? What is practice? Like that's now what I do, and so my mind maybe is like wired to do that uh more. But you know, there's this book called I think it's called Quiet. Don't quote me on that, I'll have to come back to you as a title. But my my boss at Microsoft a few years ago, one she was one of the my favorite bosses uh uh ever, just a genuine, nice person to work with. A lot of development opportunities for her, a lot of you know, growth mindset was kind of our culture. Really good boss. She had a retreat that that was really focused on how do we kind of break through our kind of fixed mindset MO as a team and kind of learn and adapt and whatever. And so the two authors of this book came uh to our offsite. It was really about how you quiet the mind and let your subconscious kind of work on problems. And usually your subconscious is a lot more creative than your conscious mind. That was their thesis. Uh, and I think running, I don't know about you, but like often you're just putting one foot in front of the other, unless you're like on a technical trail run where you need to watch every step, um, or it's icy or or whatever. There's a lot of miles where you're just, you know, you can kind of just let your feet go. Um, and so it's almost the same thing, like you just park a problem in your subconscious, and your brain uh does a better job of figuring that stuff out if you're not intentionally thinking about it. And so some of it is also biology, um uh as well. Yeah. And the third thing is I enjoy it. Like, oh shit. Like, I didn't sorry. Uh darn it. Uh no, you can curse. It's okay. Darn it all. Um, I didn't know I was that creative, but it turns out at the end of a four-hour run, like, oh, that was brilliant. I better write that down before I forget it.

SPEAKER_01 42:42

Um is that where most of the inspiration for most of your blog posts, which we'll link to in the show notes comes from?

Your Why And Entrepreneur Resilience

SPEAKER_05 42:48

All almost uh, well, a lot of them. I won't say every single one, but certainly a lot of them. You you know how it is. If you're sitting behind a desk, like how creative are you if you're like sitting behind a desk and like your hands are above your keyboard? I would argue you're not very on them. Often you're like looking out the window or on a long walk or you know, meditating even or or whatever, but it's not like poised at the ready behind your your keyboard, uh, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 43:17

So just so our listeners can get like a sense of what these blog posts are about and what these conversations are about, I'd love to dive into one of them. Oh, bring it up. I'd love to dive into the why because this is a big topic in ultra running. We always talk about your why. What is your why for doing this big event and what like what is your attachment to that why? So I'd love to hear about your inspiration for that particular post.

SPEAKER_05 43:46

Well, I I think it stemmed from what you're talking about. Like we we were talking a few minutes ago about often your mind gives up before your body, and that's because the reason that you're doing whatever it is, you're Not all that attached to. Like John, I'm not judging, but the the race that you DNF'd, you just rocked up the week before and clicked submit and judging. Like you probably didn't have the chance to really think deeply about why that race was important to you. I would guess.

SPEAKER_03 44:17

Yes, exactly. It wasn't it wasn't important to me.

SPEAKER_05 44:22

Yeah. So if it's not real to you, then it's easy to like, you know, hit the eject button and like, okay, I'm not going to do this anymore because like I don't remember the reason I was doing it in the first place.

SPEAKER_02 44:33

And when and when the trail got hard, I I walked.

SPEAKER_05 44:36

Yeah. Yeah. It happens in business all the time. I I think the the thing that I was thinking about on the run that inspired that is I was talking to a founder who was looking to hang up what he was working on. Um and you know, we spend a little bit of time in our in our coaching session, just okay, what what are some of the problems? Are there ways that I can help you with those some of those problems? But then we got to the point, maybe 15 minutes before we ended, I said, What why did you why did you start in the first place? Maybe there's an opportunity to kind of re-ignite some of that passion that you had about this project. Uh and it's hard to say whether he had forgotten the why or whether he never had it or was never that attached to it. But he really couldn't articulate the reason why he was working on this uh this business, why he was leading this business. Um and yeah, that was that was just profound to me. It's like, okay, all the problems that you're talking about, every entrepreneur has. Like often, you know, you have scarce resources, you don't have enough people or enough money or enough customers or enough time in the day, or whatever the scarcity is. There's always hard times, but the people that are passionate about the reason that they're working on it are usually the ones that kind of persist in spite of that scarcity. And he, I think, was no judgment. And in fact, you could probably figure out who it was by looking at my LinkedIn, but I won't mention the person's name or the company he works for.

SPEAKER_01 46:09

I think you used his first name in your post.

SPEAKER_05 46:12

What's that?

SPEAKER_01 46:13

You used his first name in your post. Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_05 46:16

Well, so uh if you're listening, um, I I owe you a beer. Um or maybe two beers, or however many beers you think I owe you, I owe you that. Um but I but I think a lot it for him, those problems were magnified because he didn't have the why to fall back on. Because he didn't say, like, I'm gonna do this because you know what? This is super important to me, and I've thought about the reason I'm doing it. And no matter what happens, I'm committed to it because I understand my motivation in the first place. And if you can't do that as an entrepreneur, you really are gonna go through some, you know, you might not fail, uh, but but you may not be as resilient when problems come up as as you would like to be.

unknown 47:01

Right.

SPEAKER_05 47:01

And I think running is this the same way. Like running is uh uh is the same way unless you really are convicted about the thing that you're doing, it's easy to say, my lake, you know, I have a blister on my big toe, I better quit. Like it's easy to let little things become big things if you don't have that why to kind of supersede all the little things from the from becoming big things.

SPEAKER_03 47:22

I I experienced that personally. I had a string of three DNFs when I was starting out. Um, this is like I guess we're talking about like eight or nine years ago at this point, but uh yeah, I had three 100 milers that I DNF'd. And the big reason I was able to overcome that and and get back and back on the saddle is because I I took a hard look at why do I like running? Do I even like running? Am I just here out of momentum? Right. Because I started this thing a while ago and figured I should keep going because of people around me. And I think actually considering whether or not you like it and and then figuring out your why was super important in my journey. And that's why I talk about it a lot for running.

Family Ultras And Vertical Endurance

SPEAKER_01 48:09

Yeah. Mike, do you have the same why for every endurance event, or do you have a different one, or does it shift throughout time?

SPEAKER_05 48:18

Oh gosh, that's a good question. There's a few events that my why is specific. Um, there's two in these two events a year that I do with my two sons. Um, we do uh a vertical endurance event uh together. Uh now we do it in in uh Stratton, uh uh Vermont. But you have 30 hours to climb 30,000 vertical feet. Uh wow. You can sleep and eat and rest if you want, but it comes out of your 30 hours. You can't press pause on the clock. Um, and so that why is like I'm gonna keep doing that with my kids as long as they want me to and as long as I'm physically able to, because it's such a great, great family thing. My wife and my my oldest son's girlfriend volunteer.

SPEAKER_01 49:03

And so I love that.

SPEAKER_05 49:04

So they like are there every because you do it in laps, of course. Like there's no mountain in there's no mountain that is 29,000 feet, even Everest isn't 29,000 feet. Um, you know, it is above sea level, but it's not vertical spawning lip point.

SPEAKER_01 49:18

And do you do it step for step or you're just there together?

SPEAKER_05 49:22

Uh we always hike together. Now there's some the first year that my oldest son and I did it together, my youngest son didn't yet yet join us on the first one, but my oldest son and I did uh snow basin in Utah. Uh and it was hot during the day, it was 95 degrees or something. And snow basin, the base elevation is 68, and I think the top is 92. So you're a little high. It's not like Colorado high, but it was high. Um and he like lap you had 13 laps to get, you know, the it was 29,000 feet divided by 13. That so however many feet a lap is, that's you know, it took 13 of those to get to 29,000 feet. And by the second lap, he was throwing up and he was like not able to hold down water. And uh coach, you know, there's coaches that climb and kind of make sure you're doing okay. And a coach came behind him and like took him off the mountain and said, You're disqualified. Uh, and he said, Disqualified, I can't be a squat. I told all my friends that I'm like doing this thing, I can't be disqualified. They said, Until you can hold down water and eat and go to the bathroom, you're not climbing on the mountain. So it took him 10 hours. Uh, like he was in the hotel laying on the bed with an IV in him and da-da-da, uh, trying to sit down water, throwing it up, and da da. Finally, 10 hours later, he got back on the mountain uh and he finished with 20 minutes to spare. Wow. That's some perseverance. After like he was like just, you know, my wife cries every time she talks about that story. Uh, even now, like, like, where did that come from? His why, I asked him, like, why, like, where did that come from? Because, you know, in high school he wasn't like that commitment. Yeah, right. In college, he was like, he was okay passing, but he wasn't like aiming for a 4.0 GPA or anything. Where did that come from? He said, you know, I I thought about two things. One is I told he was a uh trainer at uh F-45. Uh, and so he told a lot of his clients, like, I'm doing this thing. He didn't want to go back and face them to tell them that he DNF'd this thing or got or DQ'd the thing. And then the second is he he figured, like, okay, between now and the finish time, 6 p.m. on Saturday, it's gonna suck. It's just gonna suck. But the life is gonna suck from 6.01 p.m. the rest of my life if I don't finish. Uh if I do finish, it's gonna suck a little bit, but if I don't finish, it's gonna suck for even longer for the rest of my life. And the third thing is knowing my dad finished and I didn't, like, there's no way I'm doing it.

SPEAKER_03 52:06

Never.

SPEAKER_05 52:08

There's no way. Um, and so anyway, now the three of us do that uh that event every year. And then there's another event here in uh Washington um called Ancient Lakes, and that it's a 50k uh that we run uh uh together. So those two things every year we do together. Uh and the why then is like, okay, I like I said, I want to be fit enough long enough and be invited by them enough that we just do this together uh uh every year. So my why is different there for sure.

SPEAKER_02 52:37

What a great bonding experience.

SPEAKER_05 52:39

Yeah, it's so great. It is so great. Um you got some tough kids. I'll send you a picture, but they gifted me a collage of photos uh from a bunch of events that we had done together. And and they wrote three or four quotes apiece that are kind of sprinkled throughout about why they think this is important.

SPEAKER_04 52:56

Um, that's cool.

SPEAKER_05 52:58

Yeah, so that's my favorite thing. I mean, don't tell my wife, but that's my favorite Christmas present, I think. Never. I mean, there's other good present. My wife, forgive me over the years, of course, but that one has to be way, way, way up. We won't tell her.

SPEAKER_00 53:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 53:12

Well, you wrote why. I think the perennial kind of evergreen why that you're talking about really is I just get so much out of the community, like trail running the community, you know, the the road racing usually is very competitive.

SPEAKER_02 53:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 53:27

And trail running is a lot like you know, these are people that you would have a beer with after the run. And not everybody that runs a Seattle Marathon would I care to have a beer with after after the run. Um, yeah. And just the culture is different, it's a lot more competitive, and trail running is a lot more, you know, we focused, not me focused.

SPEAKER_01 53:46

I related a lot to that study, that Harvard study about um happiness being found in relationships that you wrote about in one of your blog posts. And I get that out of my running experience in my running community.

SPEAKER_05 54:01

How many great people do you know because you're in that community?

SPEAKER_01 54:05

Like everyone, all of my closest friends. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 54:10

Yeah. And I mean, part of it is shared values and and shared lifestyle, presumably, and you suffer through things together. Like there's a lot of things that you can talk about over beer after the event is is over. So community is one big why. That's a big why for me.

SPEAKER_02 54:25

Same with me.

Discomfort Training And Leading Well

SPEAKER_05 54:26

And the other is I really enjoy the crossover between leadership and endurance. I think that's just really uh really an interesting problem to me. And and you know, I try to find more opportunities to discover more alignment between those two disciplines. Uh, and so that's kind of a motivating thing for me as well.

SPEAKER_01 54:45

Do you think that being an endurance athlete has made you a better leader, or vice versa?

SPEAKER_05 54:54

Uh, can I say both? Yeah. Yeah. It's probably both. Yeah. Um, yeah, I think one one of the things that we already talked about is like you you you run the race that you prepare for. I think the same thing is true with leadership. Like you're you're gonna get the result that you build the culture for and that you hire for, and that you inspire the team for. And you know, it's not the day of that earns the the medal. It's all the all the work that leads up to the day of that kind of earns you whatever outcome you're you're looking for as a team or as an endurance runner. Um, so I think that is definitely 100% uh 100% true. I think the the other thing is just the resilience of like doing hard things and being comfortable, being uncomfortable. Like that is true in running. Like most of the time I'm uncomfortable running. I don't know about you. Yes, I never feel like I'm sitting in the recliner watching a ball game with a beer in my hand, ever when I'm running. Never has that happened to me.

SPEAKER_03 55:53

It's it's an exploration of discomfort.

SPEAKER_05 55:55

Yeah, what's that?

SPEAKER_02 55:57

It's an exploration of being dis uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_05 55:59

Totally. Yeah, totally, but being embracing that and actually enjoying that uh is you know, it's part of running, but it's also part of leadership. Like leadership isn't always like a walk in the park and the team giving you hugs or high fives when you walk in the door, and it's rarely like that. Um, and being able to being able to thrive when it's not like that.

SPEAKER_01 56:22

Um, I think that's a lot of you wrote something that I want to read back to you and that fits right into what you're saying right now.

SPEAKER_05 56:30

Dear Miranda, you really suck. I hate you, never call me again. Love your power mic. Wasn't that, was it?

SPEAKER_00 56:36

Challenges become part of the mission rather than obstacles to it.

SPEAKER_01 56:43

And like it sounds like such a great mantra for both an ultra-running endurance event and for this leadership conversation that you're talking about right now.

SPEAKER_05 56:56

Well, so uh your work at at Watson or at Seed Spot now, like every not every day has challenges. I'm guessing more days than don't have some challenge. Like there's something that isn't going the way the way you want it to. Um but I I would guess you don't think of those as reasons to quit the mission that you're on at seat spot, right? It's just part of the part of the part of the uh the journey that you're on. Um sometimes and same thing with Quinty.

SPEAKER_00 57:32

I actually just had my last day at SeatSpot.

SPEAKER_05 57:34

Oh, okay. Oh, okay. Let me change that into the case. There was at least one challenge.

SPEAKER_00 57:40

Challenge that was worth quitting.

SPEAKER_05 57:43

Okay, let's dig into let's dig into that. That that seems like a good uh good. But but okay, the on the challenges thing though. Uh let me let me finish on on that. So I do think like endurance running, the challenges that come up, those are like it's raining out. Okay, what am I gonna do? I'm gonna put on a maybe I have a light shell, or maybe I'm gonna get comfortable being wet, or maybe I have a dry pair of socks in my backpack that I'll change into at some point. Or it's not like, oh, okay, it's raining, forget it, I'm out.

SPEAKER_02 58:11

Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 58:12

Right learning how to adapt when the challenges come up and even bigger and bigger and bigger challenges. Like one time in this vertical event, you you hike up and you ride the gondola down, the gondola had broken. And so we had to hike back down, and you still had 30 hours to do the 30,000 vertical feet. So, okay, it's a new challenge. How are you going to figure that out? Um, so yeah, I think those challenges, like especially to the extent that they get increasingly more and more difficult, I think make you such a stronger runner and stronger leader. And it's not because the challenge are the same, but your ability to recognize that challenges are just part of the journey and you're able to take on hard things and it's okay. Uh, I think that mantra, that philosophy is uh definitely a crossover between leadership and learning.

SPEAKER_01 58:54

Yeah, you listened to my hundred miler, my highlands of hundred miler, and my challenge in that event was something I didn't anticipate, which was eating. Eating was my biggest challenge.

SPEAKER_05 59:06

Well, what uh so has that ever been a problem for you before? Just this time.

SPEAKER_03 59:12

I mean hundreds though. Yeah, hundred hundreds will throw if you run 10 hundreds, you have 10 different problems. Well, at least 10. You have at least 10 problems. Like it's it is that event that crosses some threshold where something always goes wrong. Yeah, and you your ability to adapt to that problem is how you do in that event.

SPEAKER_05 59:37

I I think that's such a great example because if it was all perfect all the time, and it felt like sitting in a recliner with a beer in your hand all the time, then it probably wouldn't be as enjoyable. Um, I I would guess.

SPEAKER_01 59:53

Yeah. Well, that wouldn't that's not why we do it. Not everything worth doing is easy and fun.

SPEAKER_05 59:59

Yeah, yeah. Uh do you mind sharing the seat spot part? Uh it's on the podcast of lots of people to listen to you, so feel free to take a pass on that.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:07

But yeah, I'll fill you in offline.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:10

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:11

Sounds good. Uh I have this masochism. I mean, this is unsurprising to anybody who listens to the podcast, but I actually really, really enjoy uh inclement weather. Okay. I I mean, if I'm I'm just like everyone else, when I look outside and it's raining or snowing or hailing or lightning or whatever, I don't want to run. Like I'm I'm not not that unnormal, right? Or that weird. But when I'm out in it and I'm pushing through it and I'm enduring the inclement weather as as it comes and still accomplishing my training run or my race or whatever it is, I have this like huge high. Like there was this 5K, we told you about this 5k series we do uh every year in April. And April in Colorado is notoriously terrible weather. Like, I mean, it's really, really nice, but then like on a dime at five o'clock, it's hailing. And uh and then this one day, like the start line was sunny the whole time, but the route like crossed through a moving hail storm. Okay. And so we were getting pelted from the side. I was wearing my hat sideways to like protect my face from from hail. I mean, it was like it's like dime-sized hail, just like throwing at you while you're trying to run a 5K. It was crazy. And Miranda was there, and I'm sure she uh remembers this differently than me, but that is one of my favorite 5Ks I've ever run. I was so like, I mean, and this goes back like there's this great photo of me at the Barclay Fall Classic when it was pouring rain and we had just had like to climb up a mudslide hill. Like, I just I really do well in inclement weather. And I just I feel like it's something about it that really love. And so when you were talking about how the challenges like are the why, like are the reason. It just reminded me of like how much of like my memories of like like I don't want to go outside when it's raining, but when I'm out there, I can I feel that like this is my calling.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:08

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, one thing that I do now is like when it's raining, I will like I'll wait to when it's raining before I go out and run uh from home.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:18

Oh, so it's like you you hit it from moment one.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:21

Yeah, because like with events that are longer than you know five hours or something, something's gonna happen. Yeah, like this 30-hour vertical thing, like the weather is gonna change something. And so it just uh for me just kind of builds up my resilience to like, okay, it's I'm gonna be wet and maybe a little bit cold, and uh, here's what I need to do to adapt um uh uh to that. So so it's almost like we're talking about like I almost like look for the things that are gonna add the suckiness uh to it. You know, I don't go, you know, I don't go sockless or with rocks in my shoes on purpose anything bad, but but I do look for the talent uh part um quite often.

Balance Advice And Closing

SPEAKER_01 1:03:05

Yeah. Well, we've already come up on an hour, Mike. I'd love to um wrap up this podcast by asking you to share a piece of unsolicited advice to with our listeners. It doesn't have to be running, it can be leadership, but we end all of our podcasts by allowing our guests to share a piece of advice.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:27

Well, I appreciate that. I think my biggest thing is balance with your non-work life can add or detract from the energy that you bring into your work life. So if you're doing a great job and investing in relationships you care about, uh, if you're getting physical exercise, if you're aligned with your purpose, even if it's not at work, at least at home, uh, you know, those kinds of things. Are you getting enough sleep? Are you eating well? They have such a profound impact on your leadership. I think we can all remember not getting out of sleep the night before and having a big presentation and really doing a terrible job at it is a good example of that. But I think investing in your balance is the single most impactful thing that you can do as a leader. Um I think I think.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:17

Do you think uh the people you work you work with leaders, you work with business uh entrepreneurs and leaders? So, like, do you think that they balance our lives well on the whole? Like for the case.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:27

Oh, that's a good question.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:29

No, hardly, hardly ever. Hardly ever at the beginning of our relationship. But those that believe what I'm saying enough to try it, oftentimes are like, you know what? I slept better last night. I took my wife out on a date for the first time in a month, and it was amazing. And my friends invited me for a happy hour on a Thursday, and they finally said yes, and they just walk in the door with like, oh my god, it's such a great use of my great use of my time, and now I'm like ready for the day, whatever, whatever brings. And then they can react better when they're more balanced, more discernment and EQ and not freak out when things go wrong or people make mistakes or or whatever. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, no, not uh John, I think it's rare that leaders are balanced, but I think those that realize the importance of it and invest in it, I do think that they uh it's kind of a reinforcing thing, like, oh yeah, I'm gonna do more and more and more of that.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:31

Okay. Now, running is go for it. Okay. Running is a uh like is something, at least the way you uh have div in dove into it. It's like you have a very gold based system, right? Like you're you're out there, you're signing up for events, you're training for them, you do things with your family. Like it's you're very into it, right? When you talk about creating that balance, do you think it can ever tip into being too balanced? Uh, like because I feel like you know, sometimes I get so into running. You know? And like where do you do you ever feel that way that you you're maybe too into running or your side project? Or is that good?

SPEAKER_05 1:06:11

You know, is that a it might be nice to bring my wife on the call. I mean she's not in the room. She's not in the room. Uh yeah, of course, you can you can overindulge in in anything. Right. Um uh I I think. Um however, running I I don't think running is the the silver bullet or or whatever. It it works for me, it works for you guys. It doesn't necessarily work for everybody. But for me, it works because you can check the the physical fitness box, you can check the socialization box for me. Because I think of problems, I can also check the purpose box. You know, if you think about wellness or balance in in like multiple dimensions, social health and physical health and mental health and spiritual health, uh, it checks a lot of those boxes for me. So it's not like I then I don't go to church, uh, no offense to anybody listening, but I'm not a religious guy. But the purpose part of running uh is enough of that fulfillment for me that I don't feel like I'm missing that. Um, and so I kind of you know check multiple boxes when I can just to be a little bit efficient with that because I do put a lot of time on my feet and run a lot of miles, a lot of hours away from home. Uh, but I think my wife, Christine, is just super supportive of that, which helps a lot because she has her own things and we try to align when she does her things and when I do my things, uh, so it doesn't impact us too much.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:33

I think it's a really good point about how much running can uh check those boxes that all need to be balanced. And of course, it's always a you know, I mean you're always trying to keep something in balance. Like balance is not a state, it's a it's a movement, like it's a process. Definitely a journey, definitely a journey. Definitely a journey, right? So I think it's a really important point, like showing how much running can give to you based on how much you get out of it, right? We go back to this the first life lesson you gave, which is like you're gonna get out what you put in, you know. Miranda gets out of running a very different thing than you, or I get out of running, yeah. And that affects how we balance the rest of our lives. So yeah, pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:10

Yeah. Thank you, Mike, for being on the pod.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:14

I just love chatting with you with you guys. It's good to have like kindred spurs to exchange, uh, compare notes, uh, notes with and whatever. So uh I appreciate the opportunity. Uh absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:25

We appreciate it. And uh thanks to all the listeners who have made it with us this far. Uh, keep on uh running with your problems.