Welcome And The Hot Take Setup

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Hello and welcome to Running with Problems. My name is John Eisen. I'm Miranda Williamson. Running with Problems is a podcast about the problems encountered during a life in running. Today in the podcast, we have yours truly, Miranda and John, discussing the drama of the day. Hot take episode on the Sage Canada and Cameron Haynes Doping Debacle.

SPEAKER_00 0:34

Ooh. That was pretty good.

SPEAKER_01 0:36

That was right. I can't believe that on the spot.

SPEAKER_00 0:38

Doping debacle. I like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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All right. Well, uh, I don't think we're gonna have much of an intro this week because big hot take episode. You're gonna hear enough of Miranda and I. So without further ado, enjoy Hello, John.

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Welcome to Running with Problems.

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It's great to be here. Thanks for having me on.

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Today, it's just us.

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It's just you and me. It's been a while since it's been just you and me.

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I know, and I really love these podcasts with just the two of us.

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I get a little. I don't know. I worry people don't want to listen to us talk. But then again, if they didn't want to listen to us talk, they wouldn't download our podcast.

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And still our number one most downloaded podcast is just us talking.

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Hmm. That's good to it's good to hear.

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So today we are talking about the Cameron Haynes Sage Canada controversy that has lit up the internet recently.

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It's been blowing up the running internet. What do we call the running internet? Is it the runter net? No, never mind. No one say that ever again.

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I like it. I'm gonna adopt it. Across the runter web. If you've been living in a rock under a rock and don't know what we're talking about, don't worry. We will tell you all about it.

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It involves intrigue and bow hunters, yes, drugs, and rule violations.

SPEAKER_00 2:16

Oh my gosh. All of the things that make for a good run drama.

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Well, let's get into it.

Who Cameron Hanes Is

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Tell us about the context here. Who are our players? What's going on? What happened?

SPEAKER_00 2:32

So our players are Cameron Haynes, and Cameron Haynes is a bow hunter, a turned endurance athlete, author, influencer, outdoorsman. Yep. He grew up in Eugene, Oregon, and started bow hunting at the age of 19. And his vibe is uh well, how would you describe his vibe, John?

SPEAKER_01 2:58

Manly.

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Mental toughness.

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Skewing right.

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Skewing very right, very patriotic.

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Mm-hmm. Lots of camo and and and uh flags printed on black hats, that sort of vibes.

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Yes.

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Yes.

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His mantra is keep hammering.

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His lifestyle brand is called the Keep Hammering Collective.

SPEAKER_00 3:25

Correct. Keep hammering hammering collective. He has his own podcast.

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Yep.

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He's been on Joe Rogan multiple times. So he's a very uh friendly in that um realm of influencer.

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We can just say the manosphere.

SPEAKER_00 3:42

Yes. Uh he got an ultra running in his late 30s as a way to train for bow hunting season.

SPEAKER_01 3:51

Yeah, he's been a sponsored athlete. Gosh, I mean, I don't know the specifics. You're the one reading his bio, but I mean, I know he's been a sponsored athlete for a long time as a bow hunter.

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Since 19. But before that, he was an athlete as a child in Eugene, Oregon.

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So an athlete almost all his life or all of his life.

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All of his life.

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Uh and yeah, now makes uh quite a good living from having a very large audience and selling a lot of gear in his lifestyle brand. Um and yeah, he still competes. He just competed in the Cocodona 250, which we'll talk about. But he also, and you know, he hosted like a 10K down in Austin last year. He he's trained with Courtney DeWalter. Like he is around in the ultra trail and ultra scene. He's known for running this mountain near him all the time. Or was it Pizga? I think near where he lives, Mount Pisgah. And yeah, I mean, he's a an incredible athlete, older gentleman. Uh, I think he's what 58?

SPEAKER_00 4:54

He is 58, yeah. And he's been in endurance sports for about 20 plus years now, and and he's run some some big things like uh Leadville, Bigfoot 200, Moab 240, Coca-Dona 250. So he's he's done some big things.

SPEAKER_01 5:10

Yeah, and and I'll just say off the bat, like his whole vibe does not I don't love it. Like funny is Cameron Haynes' whole vibe and the and Speedland keeping working with them was one of the reasons I decided not to continue representing Speedland as an ambassador, is because I felt they were leaning very heavy into Cameron Haynes. They had produced, I think, three shoes with him and just like one shoe from a bunch of other people. And I just didn't, you know, I don't have any problem with Cam. I I think he's an incredible athlete. I think he's producing a message of inspiration for a lot of people, and a lot of people are consuming that. And I think we need more inspiration for all walks of people, right? There's gonna be people on the right, it's gonna be people on the left, it's gonna be people who don't fit on a linear spectrum of pop politics, and they all need inspiration to get up and move and run. It's just that his message didn't buy with me, and I didn't really want it associated with my personal brand, which I feel is a bit more, I don't know, I'm definitely more left, more, more wishy-washy, more like emotions. Like, let's talk about our feelings and get over them and still do hard things, right?

SPEAKER_00 6:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:25

Both Cam and I uh we want people to do hard things. It's just we're gonna we're gonna go about it in a different way. So I just want to establish that like despite the fact that we I don't like agree, like jive with this vibe. I don't vibe with it, is how the kids say it. Um I s I respect it, you know. I respect the the message of positivity toward like improving yourself. But maybe Great. I don't know. Just want to put that out there.

SPEAKER_00 6:53

Great, I love it. I um I'll be honest, I struggle with um quite a few things about his um vibe and the toxic masculinity that comes through in a lot of his rhetoric. Um, I've read a lot and consumed a lot in preparation for this podcast.

SPEAKER_01 7:13

Particularly consuming his hate on Sage, which I have not I have uh not been consuming. So that's how we did research on this. Miranda did all the research, and I am just here as color.

SPEAKER_00 7:24

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 7:25

By the way, that's a reference to like uh baseball commentary or generally sports commentary. They often have a play-by-play announcer and a color announcer. Oh so the play-by-play announcer tells you what's happening, and the color announcer is usually like a former player or coach who like gives you the ins and outs of what's happening underneath. And so, like a good play-by-play and team. So that's what I that's what I mean when I say I'm the color.

SPEAKER_00 7:49

This is perfect.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

Yeah.

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And I'm the play-by-play today.

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Yes.

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All right, well, let's get into Sage.

Who Sage Canaday Is

SPEAKER_01 7:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:55

Who is Sage? Friend of the pod.

SPEAKER_01 7:57

I mean, Sage has been on our podcast, so clearly, I mean, yeah, we're leaning a little bit, but I love Sage. Uh, he's so goofy online. He has he he plays a bunch of instruments. Sometimes he'll make videos of him playing every instrument in a song that he made up. It's really goofy and cute.

SPEAKER_00 8:17

He is also a content creator, uh, mountain ultra trail runner, sponsored, elite. Um, he's a coach. Um, his mantra is any surface, any distance. He's also from Oregon.

SPEAKER_01 8:33

Yes, both from Oregon.

SPEAKER_00 8:34

Rural Oregon. Um, and he has also been an athlete pretty much his entire life. He ran in college and continued the the track of Olympic trials and moving on in his career as a marathoner.

SPEAKER_01 8:50

Sage has a pretty interesting story. Um, we get into it a bunch in his episode, which I'm sure we'll link in the show notes. We had Sage and Sandy on, Sandy's his wife. Sandy's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 9:01

Partner.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

Partner. Partner. Uh Sage uh has an interesting career. Like he kind of comes out of college running, like many college runners. He's he's looking for direction in his racing and running. He goes into marathons, pursues Olympic trials. He does pretty well there, getting some top placements.

SPEAKER_00 9:22

He does he was one of the uh at the time, he was the youngest athlete to um actually qualify in the Olympic trials.

SPEAKER_01 9:31

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_00 9:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:32

Uh I did not know that. And then he kind of found this like any surface, any distance idea. He's living in Boulder when there's less elite. I mean, there's still a ton of elite athletes in Boulder at the time, but like uh he kind of these days, like you can't throw a stick in Boulder without hitting a couple of elite athletes, but like Sage uh moved here in 2012, yeah. When uh when that was less popular, uh he he had a couple tragic things happen. I think first was he had a pulmonary edema, or maybe first his house burned down. I can't remember the ordering there, but he had a pulmonary edema that was a huge health scare, put him in the hospital, really restricted his running, his ability to compete at a high level, and he hasn't like completely recovered from that. He's still a little bit depressed uh from his peak when he was really, you know, super elite. Uh he's still extremely fast.

SPEAKER_00 10:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 10:30

And then and then his house burned down in Boulder here, which was extremely sad. Sandy and him lost almost all their belongings. Um, we get into that a lot in the Saved and Sandy episode, which is in the show notes, but then they made their move to Salida after that.

SPEAKER_00 10:48

Their house burn down.

SPEAKER_01 10:49

Yeah, and that seems to have been a really nice restart for them.

SPEAKER_00 10:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:54

And uh Sage has now done all the 14ers, he's like skis them. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 10:59

Their coaching business seems to be doing well.

SPEAKER_01 11:02

Higher Running is the name, I believe. So yeah. You know, so we have two people here, both been athletes all their lives, both have been sponsored basically since they got out of college. Like, so they're pro, these are pro athletes. And uh they are on the downhill of their fitness.

SPEAKER_00 11:26

Sage is 40, I believe. And Cameron Haynes is 58.

SPEAKER_01 11:31

Yeah. So we've set the scene online. They take uh cut two very different tactics at motivating their uh audiences, very different vibe, very different tactics. Yeah. Sage, like I said, he's influencers a bit, yeah. Yeah, they're definitely influencers. Sage had this really funny uh short series that I enjoyed for a while where he was just like imitating all the different trailrunners and like all the different kinds of trail runners and what they would do. I really enjoyed that.

SPEAKER_00 12:04

Oh, that's right. I remember that.

SPEAKER_01 12:06

See, he's a bit of a bit of a comedian, and um, I mean he tries to be, right? And I'm I don't know. I enjoy it. I think a lot of people make fun of him. Uh your boy Scott Jurik likes to make fun of Sage occasionally. I hope it's all in good fun.

SPEAKER_00 12:23

All right, so let's set the scene for this controversy that we're gonna talk

The Comment Thread That Ignites

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about. So in 2011, Cameron Haynes puts up a blog post on his website about all of the supplements he takes.

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Yeah.

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Including testosterone and BPC 157.

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Remember that one. That's the one we're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 12:45

We'll come back to that in a minute. Remember that one? We'll come back to that one. Yeah. So then in April, we're so that's 2011. Now we're moving on to April. Haynes runs the Eugene Marathon.

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Okay.

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He runs an incredible pace of 239.

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Okay.

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Which is 10 minutes faster than his best marathon.

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Wow. It's impressive.

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He wins in his age group.

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Eugene Marathon is a what moderately sized marathon, I'm I'm assuming.

SPEAKER_00 13:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:21

I mean it's in it's in uh what what do they call it? Nike town.

SPEAKER_00 13:26

They call it Eugene Nike Town?

unknown 13:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:28

Portland. That's where Nike is founded.

SPEAKER_00 13:31

It's in Beaverton, right? That's where it it lives.

SPEAKER_01 13:35

What?

SPEAKER_00 13:35

Beaverton, Oregon is where Nike headquarters is.

SPEAKER_01 13:38

Yeah, but I think it was founded.

SPEAKER_00 13:40

Right. Oh, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 13:41

That's where the university is, and they always hold the Olympic trials for track and field there.

SPEAKER_00 13:45

That would make sense.

SPEAKER_01 13:47

I don't know. Tell us if we're wrong, listeners.

SPEAKER_00 13:50

It's unimportant to the story.

SPEAKER_01 13:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 13:54

Um yeah, so this is part of the USATF marathon championship.

SPEAKER_01 14:01

Mm-hmm. So he's Oh, so it's a pretty important marathon for it's got all the track and field, like the everyone going for the USATF win, create age groups and such.

SPEAKER_00 14:10

Correct. Okay. It's pretty important. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:13

It's not a major, but it's pretty up there.

SPEAKER_00 14:16

And I just want to like, I don't want to take away from how impressive this is. Cameron Haynes is 58 years old, doing his personal best. 239.

SPEAKER_01 14:27

I mean a 10 minute time.

SPEAKER_00 14:28

It is a wicked fast marathon time.

SPEAKER_01 14:32

What are you, a Bostonian now?

SPEAKER_00 14:34

Oh my gosh. It's wild. That's like a your pace is like dropping below six minute miles.

SPEAKER_01 14:42

Yeah, I mean, it's real fast. And to do that, to to increase your personal best by ten minutes at I mean, as somebody who's been running for a very long time. That's incredible. Have you ever beat your personal best by ten minutes at a marathon?

SPEAKER_00 15:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 15:02

Going from what to what?

SPEAKER_00 15:04

From four four oh four to three forty-five.

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And which marathon was that?

SPEAKER_00 15:10

Like in Jack and Jill marathon.

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Like oh no, your nth marathon. How many marathons in were you?

SPEAKER_00 15:14

Oh seven.

SPEAKER_01 15:15

Seven.

SPEAKER_00 15:16

Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 15:17

So you finally you crack the code, you got under four.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:21

So maybe, yeah, yeah. I mean, it seems like uh seems like Cam cracked the code was able to get under two forty. Oh my god. That I mean 240 is good. It's really good.

SPEAKER_00 15:33

Really good.

SPEAKER_01 15:35

Like uh like for women that would be near the top, because a lot of the elite women run what, like 230, right? Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 15:44

It's I mean, it's really fast. So then of course, because Cameron Haynes is an influencer, he makes a post about this.

SPEAKER_01 15:54

Okay.

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On Instagram.

SPEAKER_01 15:56

Yeah, well, I mean, if you run a good race, of course you make a post. If you run a bad race, you make a post. You're an influencer.

SPEAKER_00 16:02

You're making a post. And someone says, at Sage Canada. So someone just at Sage.

SPEAKER_02 16:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 16:12

And Sage's response to this is um, are you on any performance-enhancing drugs? Testosterone, HGH question mark, or are you 100% natty and clean? I.e., would pass a Wada uh usada standard test question mark. For winning an age group award at a competitive marathon or at an ultra or going for a national age group record, i.e., 50 plus, one would have to be clean for it to count and not be breaking the rules. This is what Sage says. Okay. Commenting on Cameron Haynes' post.

SPEAKER_01 16:55

All right. All right, I'm about to read this. Wait, so Sage comments on Cam's post asking him if he's clean. If he's clean.

SPEAKER_00 17:05

In reference to his 2011 admittance of using all of these drugs.

SPEAKER_01 17:12

Okay. I I just checked, and the American record for the marathon from 55 to 59 is 233.49.

SPEAKER_00 17:20

Oh, he's getting close.

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So he was a little less than six minutes off the record.

SPEAKER_00 17:25

Wow.

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Uh very impressive record.

SPEAKER_00 17:27

Very impressive.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 17:29

Okay. So are we weren't ready to hear Cameron Haynes' response?

SPEAKER_01 17:34

Of course. We're I believe I speak for the listeners when I say we are on the edge of our seats.

SPEAKER_00 17:41

Cameron Haynes says at Sage Canada, haha, I have no idea if I could pass a drug test. I don't have any clue what they even test for. I'm a bow hunter. I run to get in shape for that. You're the elite runner. It's your job to know the rules. If they test for testosterone, mine's 500. That's all I know. I've taken supplements for years, sometimes to put on muscle, but that was years ago. Like the old post you're parading around like a trophy. And now just for health, like stem cell, BPC, 157, etc. As I said, I don't know if they are legal for the testing you love talking about. I would too if it was my job to represent USA. Again, running isn't my job, so I don't care if BPC or STEM is allowed, or ketone or mud water, et cetera. I think ketones are allowed. All might be restricted and use them. That said, if running was my job, I wouldn't be a gatekeeping dork like you, making stuff up, lying about shit you don't know anything about, and passively, aggressively smack talking. Can't stand men who behave like that. Okay. I just don't get people like you. You must have loved running at one point, right? You were good and people celebrated you. Now you're seemingly an odd, insecure, hateful, ex-elite that shits on his own community instead of celebrating people chasing their dreams. Wow, this is quickly. It goes on. I mean, you chose the time I ran my best marathon after a lifetime of running to drum up some old post from 15 years ago where I used completely legal and over-the-counter available supplements to discredit my race. Lots of these things are uh, you know, continue. Trying to make it sound like that's how I ran my best race instead of it was the first time I actually trained for a marathon specifically in my life. So thanks for making it about your fucked need for attention.

SPEAKER_01 20:05

Oh, good thing this is uh hope there are no children listening.

SPEAKER_00 20:08

Go on a run or eat a burger and worry less about your fading limelight, which causes you to lash out to people you don't know and have never met. I wish that were the end, but he comments again before our response is ever uh launched.

SPEAKER_01 20:27

I mean we okay. First of all, like the question was hey, are you on supplements that wouldn't pass a drug test? Right. And the answer is yes and fuck you.

SPEAKER_00 20:41

Right.

SPEAKER_01 20:42

Okay. I mean, I mean it's a Yep. It's a way of answering the question. It is not a way I would answer the question, but it's a way.

SPEAKER_00 20:51

And to answer your first two stupid questions, like I owe you anything, my test level is fine as is, but yes, I've taken it before in my life as I'm old as hell, and TRT is great for many men, but personally I don't like taking it because I feel it messes with my heart rate and blood pressure. I like to run and do it better when my heart rate is low, so that's where I keep it and no HGH. Don't think my doctor would be writing a script for that, but I have no idea. And then another person jumps in to say, hey, Cameron Haynes, BPC 157 is a banned substance, which he just said he takes. Typically results in a two to four year ban from competition. Okay. Now you are all up to speed where this all started.

SPEAKER_01 21:48

We're not up to speed at all. We just have a a the drop of the drama. So this is just like the first comments um where it began. And then it's Spiraled out into both sides doing podcasts, talking about each other. Sage generally trying to talk around Cameron, not wanting to be very direct. Direct. Yeah, being very indirect.

SPEAKER_00 22:14

He wanted to talk about the issue rather than um just Cameron Haynes is what how I saw it.

SPEAKER_01 22:19

And uh Cameron Haynes um talking directly about Sage and being relatively mean.

SPEAKER_00 22:26

Correct. On on multiple platforms as well. They both have platforms. And so there have been multiple podcasts about this.

SPEAKER_01 22:35

Well, now there's gonna be another one.

SPEAKER_00 22:37

And allegedly, uh Sage candidate um filed a tip with the US anti-doping agency.

SPEAKER_01 22:46

USada.

SPEAKER_00 22:47

USada.

SPEAKER_01 22:48

So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:49

So that's a I don't know that for certain. I was unable to confirm that. So just he claimed he did it.

SPEAKER_01 22:55

And he also claimed that he wasn't the only one. Ah. That they had received two or three other tips about this.

SPEAKER_00 23:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:04

Okay. Do you think we have enough context to have a discussion yet?

SPEAKER_00 23:08

I think we should talk about what this drug is before we dive in.

What BPC-157 Is Claimed To Do

unknown 23:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 23:14

Um I think it's important to understand this BPC 157.

SPEAKER_01 23:20

What is BPC 157?

SPEAKER_00 23:23

All right. So I have studied this extensively. So can I can tell you everything about this drug now? All right. So, and honestly, we don't know a lot, and that's one of the reasons it's banned. So, BPC157, it's a synthetic peptide, and it contains about 15 different uh amino acids. And it was discovered because some people scientists were noticing that some people with with ulcers, stomach ulcers, were healing faster than others.

SPEAKER_01 24:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 24:02

And so those people who were healing faster, they were able to basically create the synthetic version of what was helping their ulcers heal faster.

SPEAKER_01 24:15

Okay. So they tested the people who healed faster and they realized they had some sort of peptide that the other ones didn't. And so they synthetically created it. Yep. It's like the plot of uh The Last of Us, right? Where she's the only girl. Oh, sorry, spoilers. Spoilers for the last of us, but she's the only girl that can who can't get uh infected.

SPEAKER_00 24:40

Yes. So the basically the BPC stands for body protection compound.

SPEAKER_01 24:49

Okay. Are there multiple BPCs out there? Are there more than just 157?

SPEAKER_00 24:54

Not that I'm aware of.

SPEAKER_01 24:55

156 other BPCs. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 24:59

So um it really is supposed to help speed up healing, recovery from injuries, even skin, tendon, or muscle, ligament, bone, it's supposed to help with all of these things.

SPEAKER_01 25:11

Sounds attractive.

SPEAKER_00 25:12

Very attractive, right? Yeah. Um, but also, and this is why it's banned, it's supposed to enhance physical and mental performance.

SPEAKER_01 25:25

But also recovery. You already talked about recovery. I mean, recovery, if we go back to the cycling doping scandals of the 90s, there a lot of what they were taking in those cocktails were recovery set uh supplements, right? Things to help them recover between every day of cycling to help them cycle the next day faster. And similar with a lot of the drama around the baseball doping drama, where it wasn't necessarily about on-field performance. It was much more about recovery over the long season. And running, you know, when you have a season of running and you're running all these races, and not to mention the training for running races is in and of itself a an act of recovery, right? Like the most important thing you can do in your training is have recovery days, right? So recovery solving performance-enhancing drugs, like they don't have to enhance your performance directly. If they just improve your recovery, they will make you a better runner.

SPEAKER_00 26:40

That's very attractive.

SPEAKER_01 26:41

Or a better athlete in general. I think I think there's a lot of disconnect when we talk about PEDs, because people are like, well, does it help you do better? Does it help you run faster? And to be a PED, you don't actually have to help you run faster. You just have to help you recover. I mean, that is one of the ways that people use PEDs.

SPEAKER_00 27:02

Yeah. Okay. So a little bit more about this drug. Um It's been had been about uh 16 test subjects for for human trials.

SPEAKER_01 27:14

That's not a lot.

SPEAKER_00 27:15

Exactly. It's very low. So there's only been one trial with 16 test subjects, and it was scratched.

SPEAKER_01 27:25

Like there was not um there was not sufficient evidence to have a conclusion? So I or they just abandoned the project.

SPEAKER_00 27:33

So that's a good question. This is an excellent question. Question. I dove into that. Like, why was this trial scrapped? And um I learned that there are two reasons that trials are usually scrapped. One is because they run out of money.

unknown 27:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 27:49

The other is because the findings are alarming, like bad things, like bad side effects.

SPEAKER_01 27:54

Okay. And then they just they just don't produce results.

SPEAKER_00 27:57

They just yeah, they're like, ooh, we're done with that.

SPEAKER_01 28:00

That's kind of fucked.

SPEAKER_00 28:01

So the most the trials that um there's been a lot of tr other trials, but a lot of them have been in animal subjects. Just the one in here. What kind of animals? I don't that did not I did not go down that rabbit hole.

SPEAKER_01 28:16

I think all our listeners are asking the same question. And they want to know. Are we talking about Reese's monkeys? Are we talking about lab rats? Are we talking about dogs? No, God forbid.

SPEAKER_00 28:28

Oh, God, don't say that. So, you know, that due to like a lack of research, there's no established safe dosage, um, nor any proven um you know way say way to safely take or use this drug. A lot of people who currently use this drug are through intravenously through needles.

SPEAKER_01 28:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 28:53

So it's not like a pill you pop, or although it can be, but uh right now a lot of people are doing it through needles.

SPEAKER_01 29:01

And if I search BPC 157.

SPEAKER_00 29:04

You can buy it.

SPEAKER_01 29:06

I can buy it from a lot of different places.

SPEAKER_00 29:08

Uh-huh. You can.

SPEAKER_01 29:10

I can get it from my favorite uh my favorite distributor from the feed. Oh man.

SPEAKER_00 29:18

Yeah. Yeah, probably, yeah. So it's worth noting, and uh um, I will just do this as a side note. Cameron Haynes is sponsored by two supplement companies that I could find.

SPEAKER_01 29:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 29:33

And neither of them carry the drug.

SPEAKER_01 29:36

Okay. So he's not like saying he uses it to get money, he's just saying he uses it for honesty purposes. Right. Respect.

SPEAKER_00 29:48

Okay. Um, I think we can move on from there.

SPEAKER_01 29:51

We can have a discussion.

SPEAKER_00 29:52

We can start having a discussion.

SPEAKER_01 29:55

Okay. So we don't know what BPC 157 does, but it's purported to improve healing, recovery, performance in a very amorphic way.

SPEAKER_00 30:06

Right. There just hasn't been a lot of research on it. Not enough to confirm that there aren't side effects.

SPEAKER_01 30:13

Aaron Powell And when you say it's banned, who bans

How WADA And USADA Work

SPEAKER_01 30:16

it?

SPEAKER_00 30:16

Ah. Uh okay. Let's talk about who the heck Wada is. All right.

SPEAKER_01 30:22

You mean the World Anti-Doping Agency?

SPEAKER_00 30:25

Yes. So they are um in charge of creating the standards. They're um headquartered in Canada.

SPEAKER_01 30:37

I mean, as all great things are.

SPEAKER_00 30:39

Yes. And they create the standards for what substances are banned.

SPEAKER_01 30:47

So that Wada does testing for a bunch of pro sports. Um, I believe they test at the Olympics, which is probably their most what they're most known for, is testing at the Olympics. They actually rely on individual country agencies to perform testing and test within their countries. So that's why there's a USATA, which is, I don't really know the relationship between US Ada and Wada, but they are Wada creates the rules and then US Add like enforces them for US. But there's also similar agencies in Russia. Right. Even though Russia has a history of doping in the Olympics constantly. And uh, if you've seen the movie Um Icarus, not Icarus, Incubus, no, not Incubus. That's a band from the 90s.

SPEAKER_00 31:40

Um I believe Incubus.

SPEAKER_01 31:43

Icarus is the name of the documentary about cycling doping. You know, a lot of what they're talking about in that movie, where this guy was he uh in the plot of spoilers for the plot of Icarus, this guy uh from Boulder, a documentary filmmaker, uh, purposely doped and went and did the the highest tier amateur bike race you can do. Like it's not the Tour de France, but it's close, right? That he can enter as an amateur. And he basically got in contact with a Russian guy who was able to give him a cocktail of drugs that would pass wada tests.

SPEAKER_00 32:28

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 32:29

And he did it, and then he even and then I don't you should go watch that movie. It's amazing. I hope I got the name right. Uh, it is one of the best documentaries I've ever seen, in addition to like the Barclay Marathons, the race that needs its young, and uh Running on the Sun. Running on the Sun and uh Listers. Uh obsessive people in bird watching. You should go watch Listers and Icarus.

SPEAKER_00 32:52

Your recommendations. So the interesting thing that I learned about Wada in Usada is they're not like buddies all the time.

SPEAKER_01 33:00

No, they do. They do have disagreements, right?

SPEAKER_00 33:02

Yeah, they have little like spats and disagreements about how the rules should be upheld and enforced and and whose job it is when.

SPEAKER_01 33:10

They have these little like they're independent agencies, yeah. And not all races follow WATA. Right? So I think the the UTMB races actually follow a different set of protocols, which is kind of a point in and of itself because people respect WADA a bit more. And there's there's a whole bunch of drama between who is actually creating these lists of what is a PA PED, what are the testing procedures, and who's enforcing them.

SPEAKER_00 33:46

Yep. So they're imperfect. I guess the whole point of this is like these are imperfect sets of rules and imperfect organizations that have disagreements amongst themselves.

SPEAKER_01 33:58

But what's the goal of WADA or USATA or any of these agencies?

SPEAKER_00 34:02

Ah, that brings up a good question. The goal is to create fairness in athletic sports.

SPEAKER_01 34:11

We have the what what do they call that new sport? The new Olympic Games where everyone's on drugs. Have you not seen this? No. The juiced games or whatever? They're currently running now. I mean, I guess I guess it's very clear that Miranda and I are not consuming them. But yeah, they're they're currently doing a whole set of like Olympics for people on PEDs. And they're like filming it in and making content out of it. Like it's currently like a total, like there's a whole there's a group of people in this who listen to this podcast, who listen to all podcasts, who live in this world who think that taking drugs and performance-enhancing drugs and supplements and competing at that level is totally okay. And there's a group of people on the other side who think that everything should be fair and what is fair, but running in your most natural body, the body that you were given, which is in and of itself is almost unfair because we are all given different fucking bodies. Oh god, I'm getting into I'm getting super deep in here.

SPEAKER_00 35:24

You are, but you are bringing us to our very first talking point, which is fairness and competitive integrity.

Fairness Beyond The Podium

SPEAKER_01 35:32

What is fair?

SPEAKER_00 35:34

That is the question we're here to discuss today.

SPEAKER_01 35:37

How do you feel?

SPEAKER_00 35:39

How do I feel about it? Well, I do believe we need rules to create a sport.

SPEAKER_02 35:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 35:51

That's how a sport is created, by having a set of rules that are followed in order to see whose athletic performance is the best.

SPEAKER_01 36:02

I'm totally gonna agree with you that like a sport is defined by its rules.

SPEAKER_00 36:07

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 36:08

In trail running, we have a rule that almost every race adopts, except for Leadville 100, but whatever, where no muling. Just to give an example of a rule that pretty much everyone adopts is okay with. But we are defined by those rules, especially in the front of the pack where the competition is most important for placement.

SPEAKER_00 37:06

Right. Because people's livelihood, people's um uh place in the sport relies on that. Relies on that win, that podium.

SPEAKER_01 37:20

And there's no podium if there's no rules, right? Correct. You gotta follow the rate, you gotta follow the routes. Follow the route. You have to, you know, crew only at the crewable aid stations. You have to that was a big thing. Was it um Xavier Thavenard got disqualified from hard rock for getting a water bottle outside an aid station? A runner at Black Canyon last year, I believe, or maybe it was this year, everything runs together, uh, got disqualif got uh disqualified for a very tiny course cut that uh shaved 0.1 miles, and for being handed a water bottle outside an aid station and then not drinking out of it and giving it back at the aid station. He was disqualified for those two super tiny rule violations. Because he's near the front of the pack, it's very important. They tried to give him a time penalty, but it wasn't in their rules, so they decided to just give him uh disqualification after there was an outcry of uh disappointment and disapproval of the ruling. So it's clear that races these days, as the sport grows in popularity and there's more eyeballs, like following the rules in general has become a lot more important for trail running. We're no longer in the past where you know it was very chill sport. It used to be a chill sport. Used to be pretty chill. I think we're anymore.

SPEAKER_00 38:54

We are at this moment of inflection where some of our identity as gritty, wild, um unbound by rules and boundaries are rubbing up against the need for fairness and integrity.

SPEAKER_01 39:19

Rules are becoming more important to enforce. I mean, I work with High Lonesome uh on the director side, and we talk about rule violations. Um we have rule violations at almost every race we run. They're small, usually done by people not near the front of the pack, or or maybe in that front mid-pack, that front pack, like the people who might be third or fourth or fifth. You know, maybe some people who are more inexperienced or just don't know the rules. I mean, we're not claiming that everyone is intentionally violating the rules, often it's unintentional. But you know, we are faced with the reality of having to enforce rules. Because if you don't if you have rules and you don't enforce them, even if it feels like it might be a little overbearing, you're kind of forced to to enforce them, right? It's the same way Disney uh is always enforcing its trademarks and copyrights. Like if they don't enforce them through the legal system, then they become unenforceable. And so if they don't sue everyone who puts a Mickey Mouse on something, then they won't be able to sue everyone who puts a Mickey Mouse on something. So if we don't, if we don't enforce our rules, then everyone will violate the rules, right? And so I just I'm just trying to talk about like how rules are important for the sport. It's become more and more eyeballs, more and more content creation, and with that, it becomes more money, and with more money, it becomes more people trying to take advantage of it. And that that in turn creates a flywheel, a feedback cycle that makes enforcing rules more important.

SPEAKER_00 41:12

So I'm not sure I'm making much sense here, but you are, and let's let's transition because I think this goes well into the whistleblower of it all.

Rule Enforcement And Whistleblower Backlash

SPEAKER_01 41:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 41:25

And that's you're talking about these rules being important, and I'm talking about how um we're at kind of this transition where rules used to be less important. So we are used to this identity of being rule breakers a bit. And now we have people who are calling attention to these rules and how important they are.

SPEAKER_01 41:50

Yeah. Some of them have been on this podcast.

SPEAKER_00 41:53

Some of them two of them have been on this podcast. And it puts them, the whistleblowers, in a strange position, as we've seen from the controversies and from the guests we've had on this podcast. That they're become a target as whistleblowers.

SPEAKER_01 42:17

Yeah, I mean, we're referring to Camille Heron, in addition to Sage Canada as whistleblowers. They have both they're both huge proponents of clean sport.

SPEAKER_00 42:30

They are.

SPEAKER_01 42:30

And by clean sport they mean no performance-enhancing drugs. Use your body the way it is, train it the way everyone else does, go out and run the races.

SPEAKER_00 42:42

Follow the rules. If we need to change the rules, we do it the right way, but we all are bound by the same set of rules.

SPEAKER_01 42:49

Well, I I'd still like to keep addressing the fairness of it all.

SPEAKER_00 42:53

Oh, okay. You have more to say on that topic?

SPEAKER_01 42:55

Well, I think it's one question I have that I'd like to discuss is does fairness matter for somebody who is not winning the race? Why does it matter if Cameron Haynes who ha he put down a great time, but it's still six minutes shy of the American record. He did win his age group, but he didn't win the race. Why does it matter if he takes performance-enhancing drugs? We should we should here here's a statement you can disagree with me. We should only care about the top three.

SPEAKER_00 43:42

I highly disagree. If Cameron Haynes is taking first in his age roop, there is a person behind him who took second.

SPEAKER_01 43:52

And he took second maybe because of BPC 157?

SPEAKER_00 43:57

Maybe, we'll never know.

SPEAKER_01 44:00

That's the key, right? Right. And it actually doesn't matter where you are in the placement, as long as you're not last. Because any place you take is taking that place away from somebody who ran clean. Great point. Especially in an age group award, we've met many people on this podcast and many people in our lives that care very deeply about age group awards. In fact, it's the reason many people over 40 still run. Is because they can still hope to achieve a best time for someone in their age group.

SPEAKER_00 44:45

Right.

SPEAKER_01 44:46

So this idea that it doesn't matter enhancing drugs don't matter because you're not elite is you are still knocking somebody else down, right? You are still stepping over somebody. Now performance enhancing drugs don't turn you from a four-hour marathoner to a 240 marathoner. But they do and they can turn you from a 245 to a four two forty.

SPEAKER_00 45:14

It can give you an edge.

SPEAKER_01 45:16

It can't. And that edge is something that I don't know. I I guess would you prefer everyone be on drugs or no one's on drugs? Because it can't be in the middle.

SPEAKER_00 45:32

Given what I just read to you about BPC 157, I don't think anyone should be taking a drug that has such little study and information about it.

SPEAKER_01 45:48

We do not live in that world, Jeff D.

SPEAKER_00 45:50

We do not live in that world. And I would much rather that be banned for everyone than allowing some people to experiment with their own body and forcing other competitors to experiment with their own body as well. That's my opinion. That's my hot take.

SPEAKER_01 46:09

Yeah, but I mean, this isn't about whether whether Cameron Haynes should be experimenting on unknown drugs. That's not what the discussion's about. The discussion is about whether it's fair for him to use a drug that is banned by Wada for whatever reason when he runs a marathon and wins his age group, or doesn't win his age group when he does anything, like runs any one of these races, when he runs Coco Donut 250.

SPEAKER_00 46:40

Well, it's been decided.

SPEAKER_01 46:42

What do you mean it's been decided?

SPEAKER_00 46:43

That it's not fair for anyone to be taking this drug if we're looking at the rules.

SPEAKER_02 46:54

But do the rules make sense? That's what this Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:06

What about what's your next topic?

SPEAKER_00 47:10

So my next topic is on influencer culture. So

Influencer Responsibility And Banned Lists

SPEAKER_00 47:17

what responsibility do fitness influencers with millions of followers have in admitting they're taking these banned substances or continuing to take these banned substances?

SPEAKER_01 47:32

Because they can promote it to their followers?

SPEAKER_00 47:36

Well, because they have a platform.

SPEAKER_01 47:38

So they're taking these drugs and they I don't think there's a lot of runners admitting to taking banned substances. I think you would be hard pressed to find many runners admitting to taking banned substances. I think it's more an outlier that Cameron Haynes did fully admit to taking a banned substance multiple times.

SPEAKER_00 47:58

Right.

SPEAKER_01 47:59

Around running a USATF race and an Air Viper race, both of which adopt US audit rules. I think it's more an outlier. I'm almost questioning why you would do that. Because I mean, I get that like you don't respect that it should be banned, or that you don't respect that you it shouldn't apply to you. Like maybe, maybe the rules shouldn't apply to Cameron Haynes because he's old. Like, is that is that his idea?

SPEAKER_00 48:32

That was one of his arguments, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:34

Yeah, the rules shouldn't apply to him because he's old.

SPEAKER_00 48:36

And he's not uh an elite runner.

SPEAKER_01 48:39

Yeah, I mean he's not he's not gonna win these races. He is definitely in the front pack. He's not gonna win. But he we went over the fairness of like being an age grouper is still unfair to your fellow age groupers. Um yeah, I I just can't agree with the idea that the rules just shouldn't apply to you because you're not winning. I think that everything you do takes away from somebody else. And the sport of running, despite all the rules and the money that we have come to, it is still about moving one foot in front of the other through the space in front of you. It is about your own body against the difficulty of running. A lot of people don't run because it's hard. And by a lot, I mean most. Running is difficult. And these people go out there and they test themselves against the course. And if you're taking a banned substance, whether you can argue whether it should be banned or not should be banned, that is semantics. The expectation is that everybody at the start line is not taking banned substances, right? So I think it's unfair.

SPEAKER_00 50:07

It's unfair to take the banned substance.

SPEAKER_01 50:10

But now let's get into another thing that that Cameron got into. Cameron didn't know it was banned.

SPEAKER_00 50:18

Yes. This is a big one, which is the the list itself. How who or who bears the responsibility for telling athletes what is a banned substance? Especially when we have this influencer culture where so many supplements and so many substances are be substances are being promoted and normalized and used.

SPEAKER_01 50:48

Yeah, there's a lot of supplements out there.

SPEAKER_00 50:50

Lots of things out there. I will fully admit, I would not have known.

SPEAKER_01 50:56

I did not know what that thing was. But like one Google and you would know. Like these days, yes, finding the list and finding your product in the list, even though it might have a different name, is difficult. But these days we have AI and you run and Gemini runs on every single Google search. So all you have to do is search is BPC 157 a banned while by anti-doping agencies, and it would tell you. So, like I think it used to be pretty hard. I'm I'm not gonna take away from that. I think in there have been many documented cases of people not knowing what is in their supplements and people not knowing whether a supplement is banned, right? Both of those are hard. But in this case, Cameron said exactly what supplement he was taking, BPC 157, and he could have easily searched it. I think, I think from the way he was uh replying to Sage and when you read that comment, it's clear that he just didn't care.

SPEAKER_00 51:57

Right. And 100% correct in this case, but I think this moves us into the a different sphere in this sphere, in this world of like biohacking and all of these experimenting on yourself with new drugs and new supplements coming out. How the heck does Wada keep up?

SPEAKER_01 52:22

I assume it's just banning everything it doesn't know about. Like every every time they see a new thing pop up, they're well, I mean, everyone's using AI these days are probably saying AI harvest all these fucking posts from influencers and supplement companies and ban them all. We don't know what they do. I mean, it's not like governments are testing these things. I mean, there's no funding for the FDA anymore.

SPEAKER_02 52:49

So yeah. I think in general, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 52:57

Like, should I take BPC 157? Probably not, because I think we should all run clean. But then again, I'm not even winning my fucking age group. But I am taking if I did, I would be taking my spot that spot away from somebody else, right? If I went up two spots, right?

SPEAKER_00 53:13

Right.

SPEAKER_01 53:14

To go them away from their supposedly clean run. I think that's where I land on all this is that it's clear that Cam doesn't give a shit. And he doesn't like Sage. Which I mean, a lot of people don't like Sage. I like Sage, but you know, he's not the only one with that opinion. And that I don't think people should be taking performance-enhancing drugs at any level of the sport. The idea of trail running is about your own body against the elements. And yeah, I get that I get the idea that you want to make it better. You want to go faster. But you have to stop yourself from using synthetic banned substances. But then there's another argument. I'm still arguing with myself about this, is like, what about what about caffeine? Why isn't caffeine's not banned, but it does fucking help you run. It really does. Caffeine and Tylenol at the end of a fucking hundred is a magical, magical potion. So we're allowed to use these things that are arbitrarily allowed because whatever caffeine and Tylenol are common, I guess. And we're not allowed to use these other things. BPC 157 is probably a bad example here because it's super unproven. But there are things that are well understood, like HGH or TRT, that are banned substances, but because but they're not caffeine and Tylenol. So like it's just very confusing. Like clean running is not running with your own body, it's running with the list of drugs that isn't banned.

SPEAKER_00 55:06

Right. It's complicated.

SPEAKER_01 55:09

Super complicated.

SPEAKER_00 55:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:10

Like THC is banned, but most people don't think it should be banned like if you take it in between races, because it doesn't really provide that much recovery. But you shouldn't be taking it during a race because it's because it's banned. Like it's just super technical and rule-based and arbitrary, and it's upsetting that we don't have agreement.

SPEAKER_00 55:34

Yeah. It's it is this controversy is a microcosm of a much bigger debate about what is a clean sport.

SPEAKER_01 55:44

Especially in the days where we have these whatever reduced games or something.

SPEAKER_00 55:48

Oh my, I did not know about that.

SPEAKER_01 55:50

We're gonna have to look it up after the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 55:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 55:54

All right, before I keep ranting.

SPEAKER_00 55:57

Right.

Conclusions And Listener Feedback

SPEAKER_00 55:58

So we are we are coming to our conclusions.

SPEAKER_01 56:02

Ah, are you gonna give it the conclude this episode? You're gonna give the listeners a piece of advice.

SPEAKER_00 56:08

I'm gonna give them my conclusion here. Okay. Um and from my conclusion, I'm also gonna say uh before I say that, I'm gonna say I'm gonna link to all everything we talked about in the show notes. These are gonna be by far the longest show notes I've ever created. And you can visit any of these studies, any of this this original material to check it out.

SPEAKER_01 56:34

And we want to hear your feedback. Like this episode is an experiment in having a much more free-form discussion. We've had pauses, we've had umms, we've had we fought a little bit. I repeated myself a bunch. We we we said really important things and we talked about an important topic. If you like this episode, if you dislike this episode, if you disagree with us, if you agree with us, we want to hear about it.

SPEAKER_00 57:00

Yeah. And my conclusion is that our sport needs rules to define it as a sport. Otherwise, it's not a sport. It's just an adventure. And we love the gritty, wild nature of ultrarunning, but it needs to have rules. And it's going to be a challenge to keep the vibe, but bind it by the necessary rules and regulations. But they are in existence and that they're the best that we have right now. They may not be perfect. They are imperfect, in fact, but they're the best that we have at this moment. So, as is true with many imperfect rules that humans create. I don't see any heavy enforcement coming down on us mid-pack runners anytime soon.

SPEAKER_01 57:53

So it'll be no money for it.

SPEAKER_00 57:55

So it'll be up to us.

SPEAKER_01 57:57

Because testing costs money.

SPEAKER_00 57:58

Yep. So it so it is up to all of us to uphold the rules and standards of this sport that we love so much.

SPEAKER_01 58:07

That's very lofty. I love it. I think I have come to the conclusion that it's very complicated. The best thing we have is adopting the rules of wada, but it's imperfect. And I'm still on the fence about something that I haven't really talked about, which is like, what if the only thing that can bring you from not being able to run to being able to run is a banned substance? You know, what if you had there are a lot of people who are treating real disorders and diseases and syndromes with banned substances through the care of a doctor, or maybe even not outside the care of a doctor. And if the only thing that can allow you to engage in the sport is a banned substance, it gets real fuzzy.

SPEAKER_00 59:02

Real fuzzy.

SPEAKER_01 59:03

Real fuzzy. And and I cannot state definitively either way there. But if you are engaging in the sport and you are using a drug to enhance your engagement and enhance your performance, and that drug is banned by an anti-doping agency, I think it's on you to acknowledge that what you're doing is performance-enhancing drugs. And possibly don't go around bragging it on your giant popcast podcast. Like it's it's not good for the sport.

SPEAKER_00 59:35

But with that note, we're gonna end this episode.

SPEAKER_01 59:39

I hope you all enjoyed it. I enjoyed making it.