SPEAKER_04 0:10

Hello

Welcome And Guest Preview

SPEAKER_04 0:11

and welcome to Running with Problems. My name is John Ison. I'm Miranda Williamson. Running with Problems is a podcast that explores the problems faced during a life in running. Today on the podcast, we have Andrea Kuiman.

SPEAKER_06 0:23

Woo! I'm excited about this one.

SPEAKER_04 0:24

Otherwise known as Coach K. Uh, yeah. Andrea is a great person. She is an excellent runner. She's run all of the big races. Uh, she's run bad water. How many times? Three? Three times, yeah. Wow. Every year she runs that Avalon race where we see her every year.

SPEAKER_06 0:42

She runs Salt and Sea regularly as well.

SPEAKER_04 0:45

I met her at the Barkley.

SPEAKER_06 0:47

She's That's where I met her as well.

SPEAKER_04 0:49

She's run UTMB, she's run Western States, she's run Hard Rock, she's run everything. She's been running forever.

SPEAKER_06 0:56

She's a very prolific ultra runner.

SPEAKER_04 0:58

And yet she still considers herself just an everyday mom going to PTA meetings.

SPEAKER_06 1:03

And you know what I like about her? Is she has freaking fun doing it.

SPEAKER_04 1:07

She does have fun, and you can tell.

SPEAKER_06 1:09

She brings out her girlfriends, they wear costumes, they dress up, they throw parties after Avalon.

SPEAKER_04 1:16

They were having a raucous good time before Salt and Sea. I our table was so solemn.

SPEAKER_06 1:23

I know.

SPEAKER_04 1:23

And their table is raucous.

SPEAKER_06 1:25

I love their vibe. I like the way they do it. We could have talked to Andrea for another hour. Definitely. Um, but I and I think we'll have her back because I definitely have more topics that I didn't even get to hit on.

SPEAKER_04 1:42

We didn't even really discuss the uh interplay with like her girlfriends and like bringing them out to all of the races. We just talked so much about the community building. I mean, she's also started a foundation or a nonprofit to help train kids in her area to run trail races. And she's been a coach for that for over 20 years.

SPEAKER_06 2:05

Oh, and we barely touched on that. So hopefully we'll get her back to continue the conversation.

SPEAKER_04 2:11

There's just so much

Doping Hot Take Corrections

SPEAKER_04 2:12

content.

SPEAKER_06 2:12

But before we get into that, we have quite a bit of housekeeping.

SPEAKER_04 2:15

We have corrections. Our last episode, the hot take, kind of stirred up a bunch of hot goss going around.

SPEAKER_06 2:22

Yeah, which I love. I love the conversations that that stirred up.

SPEAKER_04 2:26

Thank you to everyone who submitted feedback. Uh, we really enjoyed reading all of it. It's just fun to create some discussion in the community, right? Yes. So, Miranda, are you gonna give us some discussion?

SPEAKER_06 2:39

I'm gonna kick us off person by person's feedback, and then we'll chat about each person's feedback.

SPEAKER_04 2:45

This is all in relation to the Cameron Haynes, Sage Canada, BPC 157.

SPEAKER_06 2:51

Doping debacle, as we called it.

SPEAKER_04 2:53

Oh, that's a good name.

SPEAKER_06 2:55

You came up with that during the episode. Oh, did I? Did I? You did, and I gave it the title.

SPEAKER_04 3:00

No wonder I think it's pretty good.

SPEAKER_06 3:02

So um, on a run, Eric um gave me some feedback. He said he would have really loved a stakeholder to be present in the episode, like a sports medicine physician who could have weighed in on some of the implications of doping in sports. Which, you know what, I don't disagree with him. We've done that before. When we had our spring energy episode, we brought in someone who could tell the food scientists uh who we're very close with.

SPEAKER_04 3:33

Do you think Eric would be willing to become our producer?

SPEAKER_06 3:38

Um, we're gonna have Eric back on. He has a lot of topics he wants us to explore. He has lots of ideas for the pot. So we're gonna have Eric back on.

SPEAKER_04 3:44

Yeah, I feel I feel like we need a producer, someone to get that physician in.

SPEAKER_06 3:48

Yes. And we've we've like like I said, we've done that effort before with the Spring Energy and the UTMB versus Gary Robinson episode. Oh, yeah, yeah. We often brought in two race directors. So we're not unfamiliar with this format and we don't disagree with it.

SPEAKER_04 4:05

We reached out to Camille. Well, I will say I reached out to Sage.

SPEAKER_06 4:10

Thank you for bringing that in. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 4:12

Yeah. So I mean, I didn't we didn't bring this up on the episode, but I reached out to Sage. You know, I think Sage didn't respond to me. I don't, you know, I don't know why he didn't, but I can guess that maybe he just was to lie low a little bit. So I'm not sure. Uh there's no no hard feelings, but um we did we did try at least that route.

SPEAKER_06 4:31

Yeah, yeah, we did try that route. Um and we have always, with all of these hot takes, we have tried at least one route. And we will continue. Yeah. And continue to do better. And I like the idea of bringing in uh sports medicine.

SPEAKER_04 4:44

Maybe we could do a follow-up. Maybe I'll get my new doctor, my, my, my athlete doctor down in.

SPEAKER_06 4:50

Oh, that'd be amazing.

SPEAKER_04 4:51

Talk about some BPC.

SPEAKER_06 4:53

We've actually had an uh athlete doctor reach out to us and want to be on our pod. Maybe I'll follow up with them and ask them. Okay. Anyways. Could be a good topic. On to the next, we have from Jeff. We have quite a bit of feedback from Jeff. Um, first off, he did not hear about this debacle, so he's been living under a rock.

SPEAKER_04 5:12

Definitely. Well, I mean, Jeff, you really need to get yourself plugged into Facebook common arguments or Instagram common arguments.

SPEAKER_06 5:21

So we have some just brief stuff we'll go over. It's color commentator, not announcer.

SPEAKER_04 5:27

This is like a yeah, where he's uh fact-checking us. I I said color announcer, not color commentator, but it's basically the same thing, Jeff.

SPEAKER_06 5:35

He said it's tracktown, not Nike Town.

SPEAKER_04 5:39

He would know. He's been there many times.

SPEAKER_06 5:41

He's he's very integrated into the sports world.

SPEAKER_04 5:44

Eugene, Oregon. Correct. Tracktown, USA.

SPEAKER_06 5:48

Yes. He said steroids are used for injury recovery and amphetamines for day-to-day grind.

SPEAKER_04 5:56

Okay. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not sure what that's correcting from the episode, but I appreciate the uh yeah, I mean, the the steroids help the recovery. That's why they give you steroids when you have an injury.

SPEAKER_06 6:08

Yeah. And I think it's it's I think it's an interesting correction. Obviously, from the episode and just from um the way we converse about this topic, we're not that integrated into the doping world.

SPEAKER_04 6:22

Aaron Powell Yeah. And maybe that says something about us. But yeah, I mean, I think overall the feedback, yeah, that we don't have the best expertise on what the drugs do is definitely taken. Maybe next time we'll bring in an expert.

SPEAKER_06 6:40

Yeah, I think we can do a do a follow-up episode. So um it's enhanced games, not juiced Olympics.

SPEAKER_04 6:48

Yes. Well, I mean, I think juiced Olympics, everyone got it, right? Like this so I bet if you search Juiced Olympics, Google is semantically matching that with enhanced games.

SPEAKER_06 6:59

Yeah, that's funny. Um and then caffeine at certain levels is prohibited by the NCAA.

SPEAKER_04 7:09

That's very interesting because that is interesting. Because uh I did talk during the episode about how caffeine was not prohibited and Tylenol is not prohibited. Right. Like that's sort of my magic cocktail during an ultra is caffeine and Tylenol. I wonder what the prohibited levels are. Uh, but very interesting to know that so the NCAA, I believe, doesn't adhere to WATA standards. I believe they're different.

unknown 7:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 7:34

I could be totally wrong about that. I already said I don't have the expertise. But you know, there are multiple agencies that are setting standards for doping, and it is not uniform across the board.

SPEAKER_06 7:45

And we did bring that up in the episode.

SPEAKER_04 7:47

Yeah. And which also makes it even more confusing.

SPEAKER_06 7:50

More confusing for the athletes, more confusing across the board. Right. Yep. More confusing for testing, all the all of the above. So um, John talked about being um an ultra being a test versus for you versus the course and not a test about others' runners. So why does it matter if someone's doping? Um, and I think we addressed that in the in the conversation. Was this this idea that like that's not everyone's point of view?

SPEAKER_04 8:20

I think it's a valid, definitely like a fun conversation topic, right? Like, you know, I love ultrarunning because it is just me versus the course. Like I don't have the I don't have the fitness or skill to be able to compete with other people. And if I did, I would be always be sad about it because I would always lose. And so ultrarrunning provides this beautiful space where I can compete against a course. And that's where I derive joy, right? Yeah, that is not true for everyone. And there are a lot of people who derive a lot of their enjoyment from competing against other humans, competing against other people. And you know, if one of them's clean and one of them's not, even if they're it's unknowingly, even if they don't care about the rules, like some people, like is that fair? That's the question. Um, and yeah, maybe my point about ultra, the the spirit of ultra running doesn't apply to that previous conversation. But I think overall the the discussion is very interesting about whether it's okay or not at the mid-pack. Because no one's gonna test for it. There's not enough money.

SPEAKER_05 9:26

No one's testing for fucking mid-pack runners and ultra marathons.

SPEAKER_04 9:31

If you don't win, they're not gonna spend the money on like a $2,000 test or whatever however much it costs, right? Even $200 test.

SPEAKER_06 9:38

You're right. I mean even a $23 test.

SPEAKER_04 9:40

And so it's this is it really is just is it right or is it wrong? And it's up to us to enforce it ourselves. Like no one else will.

SPEAKER_06 9:51

Right. Yeah. And I will I will personally admit that I I like that I got 23rd female at High Lonesome 100. Like if I was 24th because someone else was taking drugs, I would be upset about that.

SPEAKER_04 10:08

And that's a race that started over a hundred ladies.

SPEAKER_06 10:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:14

I believe the year you ran, we started more ladies than men. By the way, High Lonesome 100 starts 50% men and women every year.

SPEAKER_06 10:22

Love it. Great, great fact.

SPEAKER_04 10:24

Except there were odd number of runners last year.

SPEAKER_06 10:26

So that's all to say that that's an interesting conversation topic. Definitely. Right? And it goes.

SPEAKER_03 10:35

We did. It was last week.

SPEAKER_06 10:38

So Jeff continues to say this is his final point. I don't know anything about bow hunting, but there must be other ways to get in shape for it. This guy is a bow hunter and an ultrarunner. Saying he's not is a cop out, and I tend to agree with Jeff.

SPEAKER_04 10:54

And Jeff is responding here to Cameron Haynes' own arguments.

SPEAKER_06 11:00

Correct, not our arguments.

SPEAKER_04 11:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 11:02

Cameron Haynes in his Instagram comments said that he's a bow hunter, not an ultrarunner, so he doesn't need to know the rules or the, you know, what's legal.

SPEAKER_04 11:13

It's his side sport.

SPEAKER_06 11:14

Right.

SPEAKER_04 11:15

Although, I mean, anybody who does a 250 miler, is it their side sport? I mean, I mean, him and David Goggins out here thinking ultra run is a side sport. So yeah, maybe. But still, if you if you're that far into it, it's definitely part of the identity, I guess.

SPEAKER_06 11:32

You are an ultra runner, yeah. I uh tend I tend to agree with the Jeff there. So um we have uh more feedback from Brooke coming in hot.

Fairness For Mid-Pack Runners

SPEAKER_06 11:44

And Brooke, interestingly enough, considered taking BPC 157 and learn from our podcast that it was a banned substance. So she was just backing up that the point I made towards the end of the podcast that, like, I mean, who shares this information about what's banned? And who and how do athletes find that information? And this is a I think this is a valid uh point to that argument. Like, is this information disseminated well?

SPEAKER_04 12:21

Especially if you're trying to heal from an injury, right? You're frustrated, you're I mean, you're looking for any solution that works. As somebody who currently hasn't been able to run more than a mile and a half for three months, I would do anything if there was a fucking magic pill that I could take that allow me to run again. Right even if it was banned. Hell. But even but the moreover, most of the time you don't even do the search. Do I have to look at every substance on my supplement counter and be like, is this banned? Because I mean, it used to be really hard to find. Now we have AI, and AI is really good at finding things. So, like, if you just search in Google, is this banned? You're likely to get a response from Gemini. Is Gemini lying to you? Maybe, but at least you have a response. You can go look up some more. Right? I mean, Gemini on Google search is not known to be the best model in the world.

SPEAKER_06 13:12

Uh and I think you pointed to this at the um very end of our podcast too. You made the point of like, what if I was sidelined and I could take this thing and get back to the sport that I love?

SPEAKER_04 13:25

I mean, gosh, that would be a hard choice.

SPEAKER_06 13:28

Yeah, is what does that choice look like?

SPEAKER_04 13:30

None of this, especially because a lot of these things are totally untested, is black and white. Correct. None of it is you will get back if you take it, you won't if you don't. You don't know. No one knows. Anyone who says they know, they're fucking lying to you. The reason Brooke didn't take that?

SPEAKER_06 13:49

Because it was an injectable.

SPEAKER_04 13:51

Because it was untested.

SPEAKER_06 13:52

Yeah. And the the nature of it being an injectable scared her a little bit. Which fair fair enough.

SPEAKER_04 14:00

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_06 14:00

Yeah. Are we ready for our our final but yet juicy feedback? I was born ready. Camille uh shared an Instagram post. One week ago, Cameron Haynes and Aaron Tunn got a new mixed gender FKT on South Sister, which is the third tallest peak in Oregon. And I think it's near Bend. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Do we know? Do does everyone know who Aaron Tunn is? Do you know, John? I I think I know, but remind me. Okay. So Aaron Tunn has also been embroiled in her own set of controversy. So she's a boulder athlete. And she's local. Yeah. So she um announced on her Instagram that she got the fastest known time in FKT on all of Colorado's 50 14ers.

SPEAKER_04 15:00

She did the 14ers during the winter one? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:03

Oh, yeah. Continue telling. This is a good story.

SPEAKER_06 15:05

Okay. So she she announced that she beat out all these other athletes and got the fastest known time. Um, turns out she was called out for only doing 57 of the 58 peaks and not actually completing the 58 peaks. So she skipped this cool uh culabra?

SPEAKER_04 15:33

Yeah. It's a is that the one that's like on private property?

SPEAKER_06 15:37

It's on private property, correct.

SPEAKER_04 15:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 15:39

So it's a a private, the only privately owned 14er. So you have to get a permit to do it.

SPEAKER_04 15:45

There's some there's another one that has private, that the only access is private, but the top isn't private. Also, bros is technically not private at the top, so it's not the only 14er. It's private, but people still do bros.

SPEAKER_06 15:56

Okay. Well, you have to get a permit for this one, and she didn't get the permit and so didn't do that one, but had claimed she had done all 58 and got that FKT. And it's basically like it was like a live omission.

SPEAKER_04 16:11

Yeah. Right? So she like submits the FKT for doing them all. And the FKT website, which is now owned by outside the magazine people and the people who own Gaia and all these different other things. So FKT no longer like run by community members, run by a corporation, by the way. So if you had if she had submitted it and said, I did 57 of the 58 because this one is now super hard to get to and it's not permitted and whatever. It's private, then they probably would have just created a new category for her as like instead of 58 14ers, they would call it 57 14ers because this one's like now can't be done due to restrictions. But if you submit it for 58 and you don't say that you only did 57, that's kind of bad, right?

SPEAKER_06 17:02

Yeah, and that's the issue, is that like the way she went about it was a little bit more. I mean, it's still an impressive record doing still really incredible athletic um these are winter events.

SPEAKER_04 17:16

These are winter ascents. Yeah. Meaning she is using all sorts of winter gear, climbing snowfields, um in up these fourteeners, which can have really heinous weather. And the FKT is for doing them from the day you start the first one to the day you end the last one. So if a storm rolls in on the day that you're at this one peak, you do it in a storm because you're trying to go for this FKT. It's like a really dangerous and yeah, and and really stout FKT.

SPEAKER_06 17:46

She covered 365 miles and 159,000 feet of elevation gain. That's crazy. That's bananas. Impressive. So, but however, the way she went about this was quite off-putting to the community. And um there's a whole bunch of other details that go into this that I think are unimportant for this conversation.

SPEAKER_04 18:12

So let's bring it back to South Sister.

SPEAKER_06 18:14

Let's bring it back. So she her and Cameron Haynes um summit South Sister and get the FKT together. Which suddenly the comments go bananas on this.

SPEAKER_04 18:30

When this was recent?

SPEAKER_06 18:31

This was one week ago.

SPEAKER_04 18:34

Yeah. You want to know something I hate? What? Mixed gender FKTs. I'm just like, look, it you have a you have the you you rank the top female, you rank the top male separately. I get that, you know, generally on shorter distances, men are just generally better. Uh although not me, but other men. And but like this mixed gender, as if like if a woman and a man travel together, how could like why is that a ranking?

SPEAKER_06 19:05

I know, it's really strange.

SPEAKER_04 19:07

We had somebody in our community looking to do a mixed gender FKT on Nolans 14, and I was just like, I just run the fucking Nolans. Just enjoy it. It's fun. I mean, it's probably not fun, it's probably hard, but like you're just looking to find an FKT to get. So you can be have your name on a website. Well, that's part of mixed gender FKTs are the the stupidest fucking thing I've ever heard.

SPEAKER_06 19:29

That feeds into this very well. Like they just did this to spark more conversation, more debate, more controversy.

SPEAKER_04 19:41

But is this the fastest pair of people who have different genitals and can stand each other for X amount of time? Like, what what are we doing?

SPEAKER_06 19:48

Well, in this particular case, it's the two people embroiled in controversy saying, let's get more controversy. So what happened? I haven't heard about this. This is the extent of it. And it's just the comments have gone bananas now. Like, oh, do we need to start looking at people who are doping getting FKTs? And is this a conversation we need to have now too?

SPEAKER_02 20:15

We don't need to test him. He admitted to it publicly.

unknown 20:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:20

It's clear, obvious.

SPEAKER_06 20:22

Uh, yeah, fun. Fun. Oh man. Fun feedback, fun conversations. Keep uh thank you all. Thank you all for engaging. Yeah, thank you all for engaging so much with this episode. That was a lot of fun. It was.

SPEAKER_04 20:36

Let's do a quick check-in. Quick

Host Check-In And Race Season

SPEAKER_04 20:38

check-in. And then we'll get to Andrea.

SPEAKER_06 20:40

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 20:41

How are you doing?

SPEAKER_06 20:42

I'm doing well. I had a big weekend out on the high lonesome course. I have a friend on the wait list, and we did two big days helping her train. Um, she did really well, and I had a blast out there. Oh, I got 10th overall on like a slip and side descent into fistfuses.

SPEAKER_04 21:02

Oh, nice. Was it a mixed genderall?

SPEAKER_06 21:06

I think it was a lady.

SPEAKER_04 21:07

Ladies. That's more impressive. Overall. Yeah. You probably could have gotten first if you had a man with you.

SPEAKER_06 21:15

The mixed gender first. Hell yeah. Yeah. Where were you? You needed to be with me for that one.

SPEAKER_04 21:21

Yeah, right? Yeah. We could get so many mixed gender FKTs. Especially on those technical descents. They just called them mid-packer FKTs. Mid-pecker. How are you doing? I'm doing okay. I've had a lot of pot symptoms lately. Yesterday and today. Bike right home was tough. Yeah. I don't know. It's a bit of a bummer. But I did row, like as in um rowing machine. Uh I rode uh half marathon. It was one hour and fifty six minutes on the row machine. Nice. I took I had to take two very quick breaks to, you know, use the restroom and eat a snack. But um, so the total time was just over two hours, which I was a little bummed. About, but it is what it is. Um, it took me like five years to run a half marathon under two hours, so it only took me seven weeks of rowing before I was able to do that. So I don't know. It's it that feels pretty good. Um, I'm happy about it. I'm really excited for Western States this weekend.

SPEAKER_06 22:17

Oh, that's right.

SPEAKER_04 22:18

Jim Walmsley is back. Oh, I can't wait. He's I hope he can get his fifth. I'm rooting for him. He's just such a professional. Maybe the temperature looks pretty mild this year, a high of like in the 80s in Auburn. You know, some years it's like a high of 100 in Auburn. But, you know, the course is uh and the course is dry, so that means they'll cross the Rocky Chucky on foot. Um there's no not enough not much snow on the high country, so it could be a real fast course as long as there isn't too much heat baked into the rocks and the canyons. And I would love to see a Jim Walmsley sub-14 record. That would be cool.

SPEAKER_06 23:00

Amazing.

SPEAKER_04 23:02

Ladies' race looks good. Um pretty excited for it. Abby Hall's coming back, returning champ. So that'll be fun. And yeah, it's just a fun day. I mean, if y'all haven't ever watched the Questern States live stream, it's it's really fun. Dylan Bowman commentates it with Kerim Malcolm, and they are just the best commentating pair in the sport. No question. Dylan Bowman has so much hype for the sport. Um and uh you could you could put a bingo card of things Dylan will say. I mean, he will just be out there being like Hans Troyer, young and fit, and he'll just say young and fit for like six or seven minutes. He'll just end every sentence with young and fit, because that's Hans Troyer's like tagline, and Dylan Bowman loves it. I just absolutely adore this sport, and I think Western States weekend is just a microcosm of everything the sport stands for. It is it is competition at the highest level. But then everybody that there's 20 men and 20 women roughly, you know, give or take, that are like going for that win. And then there's just like 250 other people out there running that course in that heat, running this iconic race. Uh it's cool. Um, I l I'm a fan. And um I'm we usually have a watch party.

SPEAKER_06 24:25

We do.

SPEAKER_04 24:26

Unfortunately, I will be seeing Jeff on Western States Day.

SPEAKER_06 24:31

Uh Jeff from on the feedback.

SPEAKER_04 24:33

Yeah, Jeff from the feedback. Uh that's Uncle Jeff. I'll be seeing my family this weekend and not watching uh the West. I'll probably catch glimpses on my phone, but I will not be able to sit in front of the TV for 10 hours straight like I usually do. Uh but yeah, it's I'm super excited. And then after that, I've been planning the a trip out to Hard Rock. I'm gonna volunteer at Hard Rock, and I'm of course I'm volunteering at Hilo. I'm really excited. So yeah, I'm pretty stoked for all the races coming up. It's it's a very exciting season for that.

SPEAKER_06 25:06

It is a fun season. Yeah. Well, shall we get into Andrea?

SPEAKER_04 25:10

We should. Andrea Kuhn's the best. We've already talked a lot about her, so I think we're ready to go. Before we go uh into that, uh, you can hit us up at running with problems on Instagram or podcast at runningwithproblems.run. And we look forward to hearing from you, and we'll see you next time. But without further ado, Andrea Kuiman, otherwise known as Coach K.

Meet Coach K And Running Origins

SPEAKER_06 25:36

Enjoy Andrea, welcome to Running with Problems. Thanks. So happy to be here. And you are a California runner.

SPEAKER_00 25:53

Were you born in California? No, I was not. I was born in Chicago, Illinois, just right outside of Chicago. So, but then my family moved here when I was one, so I'm pretty much a native.

SPEAKER_02 26:04

I mean, that's pretty much it.

SPEAKER_00 26:06

I wasn't born here, but you know, a transplant so long ago. I've been here for 50 years. So and did your family move to Southern California? Yes, I've been in SoCal my whole life. It's hard to leave here.

SPEAKER_06 26:18

I know. I was there for quite some time. I went to undergrad in SoCal and uh moved away for grad school and then moved back.

SPEAKER_00 26:28

And was the best weather?

unknown 26:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:30

We just do. We do. Sorry, everybody else, but we just do.

SPEAKER_06 26:33

I mean, I moved to Portland for grad school. Talk about bad weather.

unknown 26:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 26:39

I would love to live in California if it wasn't for the Californians.

SPEAKER_06 26:43

Rude! Hey! You're talking to two Californians here. And did you begin your running journey when you were um in high school? Like some people?

SPEAKER_00 26:57

Yeah. Well, so my dad used to take me to these little races that were in town, like they'd have them at the local college, like a 50 yard dash, you know, and you'd run as fast as you can, you get the medal, and I loved it. And I was always a very active kid, but I was not a runner until high school. But I joined not because I wanted to run, I joined because the boy I liked was on the cross country team.

SPEAKER_06 27:18

Oh, whatever gets motivated.

SPEAKER_00 27:20

Yeah. But my cross, so let's just say my cross-country career only lasted a couple years because I was not that good. You know, I I loved the camaraderie and I really liked how I felt when I ran, but it was not that competitive. So it didn't, you know, once you get to enter junior year, if you're not running competitively, it was like you weren't getting much attention. And so it was, you know, I moved on to other things. But I always kept that running base though. So it definitely set me up, I think, for success for the future.

SPEAKER_06 27:50

Great. I have this friend in um San Diego actually started a run club in Ocean Beach, and he promotes run club crushes because he's like, whatever motivates you to come to the run, if it's a crush, great.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

Right. But there's the trend right now. I mean, it's a it's a big thing. We are seeing a huge influx in the 30 somethings registering for races. If you look at the the median age, like say at the LA Marathon, or if you went to like rock and roll San Diego, where I was this last weekend, you're seeing a lot more of that because these, you know, I call them kids because I'm in my 50s now, but you you see them engaging in these run clubs as a way of meeting people versus just swiping. And how much more like natural and how much better is that to meet somebody in person and have a real connection? And you know what I mean? Yes, okay.

SPEAKER_01 28:47

We met at a run club. It's an audio podcast, we should say we're in that was pointing at the two of us because we met at a run club.

SPEAKER_00 28:54

Yeah. But it's true, it's just, you know, it's um so much better than just making a first impression based on some, you know, computer generated photo or an old photo, or you know, there's just so much more to seeing a picture and and what a better what a great way. And they're drinking less too in the in the younger generation. So I feel like we're getting back, we're getting back to some of the roots of how we used to meet people.

SPEAKER_04 29:22

Uh there's also something to be said for the the social grease that running provides. Like you don't have to maintain eye contact, which is very hard for anybody who grew up on a phone. And you don't you don't have to you know you don't have to fill the space. You could just be running. So it really it really allows you to have any all sorts of conversations without as much social pressure.

SPEAKER_06 29:46

I've made my best friends, speaking of like dating, dating best friends, um, on long runs. Just women that I go on long runs with and women I enjoy their company for 14 hours on a big adventure.

SPEAKER_00 30:03

Oh, you talk, you talk about everything. I mean, I catch kids, and I think some of the parents might be appalled or maybe surprised at what their kids tell us when they're running. You know, there was this one girl one year and she just she just couldn't stop talking about how much her mom loved margaritas. I mean, she loved margaritas. And and it was every time we ran together, it just came up in conversation. And I never said anything to the mom, but you know, you always thought, she sh she have margarita in her bag right now? Like how much does she have?

SPEAKER_06 30:35

In that Stanley Cup, that's a margarita.

SPEAKER_00 30:38

This was before Stanley Cup, but you know how did you get into coaching children?

Coaching Kids Through First Marathons

SPEAKER_00 30:46

So um, I had run my first marathon in 2006. And you know, people say you're gonna check the box, right? It's the bucket list thing. You check the box. You gotta do it, you gotta do it at least once, right? And I really, I really do for anybody that's listening, they're probably all runners, but anybody that's not. We have a few non-runners.

SPEAKER_04 31:04

Okay, well, my Uncle Jeff doesn't run.

SPEAKER_00 31:06

Uncle Jeff, listen to me. If you haven't taken that step yet, register and just commit because I think it changes everybody's life for the better to at least do one. But I did the one, I thought I was checking the box.

SPEAKER_06 31:20

Which one was your first?

SPEAKER_00 31:21

Um, the OC marathon was my first. Ah, okay. Yeah. And then my husband, after finishing, you know, I really thought I had checked the box. And he said to me, you know, you can't just run one marathon, you need to run a second one so that you add the S because you want to run marathons. Like the S makes it, you know, more legitimate, right? And so when he said that, I was like, Oh, you're so right. Like, I need the S. So I signed up immediately for the LA marathon, which was only about at the time, OC was in January and LA was in March. So we're talking like piggybacking on the training. And the friend that I had trained with, she's like, oh yeah, you'll only have to do like maybe one more long run, and it'll be so easy. And my first race was logic. The logic. I mean, this is like girl math, right? So my first marathon was at 507. So I thought, okay, I'm gonna run.

SPEAKER_06 32:08

Which we'll get to in a minute. You did that for your first hundred as well. This girl math thing.

SPEAKER_00 32:15

Yes, I love girl math.

SPEAKER_06 32:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 32:17

So so then I did the second marathon in LA trying to break five hours, and my son jumped in, he was in fifth grade, he jumped in and ran the final Mile with me at LA Marathon. Now, when he did that, he looked around and he saw other kids finishing the marathon. And they were part of a program called Students Run Los Angeles, SRLA, which is an LA-based marathon training program that's been going on for, I mean, we rock the program that I have is in our 17th year and they're older, they've got to be 25 or 30 years old. Anyway, he looked around and he said, Mom, next year I want to run the marathon with you the whole thing. So when he got into sixth grade, his middle school happened to have an SRLA team, and they were saying they were at risk of losing it because they needed more parents to volunteer to help coach. So my son or my husband gave me the elbow nudge he regrets for the rest of his life. He's like, Oh, this sounds like it's right up your alley. And so I walked up and I volunteered as a coach to help that year to coach my son to get him to run what I thought was going to be our marathon running together step by step. And then I ended up getting pregnant. So I coached him. He ran the marathon without me. And then I never stopped coaching. After that first year, I just realized, you know, there is something so beautiful about being a part of somebody's first marathon. And especially in middle school, if we if we can show these kids just how capable, how powerful, how strong they are at that age, who knows what they'll accomplish later on in life. And so I just never stopped. So I'm I'm going into my 20th year coaching middle school marathoning and 17th year of the the nonprofit that I founded. So who knew that adding an S to a marathon would, you know, end up spiraling into this crazy things, but you just never know.

SPEAKER_04 34:19

Life is life is kind of weird like that.

SPEAKER_00 34:22

It really is.

SPEAKER_01 34:23

You don't know, you make all these connections, you do all these things, but it's like one of those spirals into another and to another, to another, and starts tracing the edges of your life.

SPEAKER_06 34:33

I love what you said about how special it is to help someone accomplish their first marathon. I started running with team and training.

SPEAKER_00 34:41

Oh, great organization.

SPEAKER_06 34:42

I know, wonderful. And then I became a mentor for team and training so that I could help people train for their first marathons. And it was really rewarding. I did that for about five years.

SPEAKER_00 34:55

Well, and so this year I still I still run the OC Marathon every single year. That's the race now that the kids in my program uh run. And I that was rock and roll for me. Okay, so it and you know the first one is just so special, like you never forget it. It's just always in your heart. It's like it doesn't matter what what happened on that course, it's just it's you're connected to it. And now I get the honor of being their official balloon lady at the OC Marathon. So I'm the sweeper. I walk the whole thing, I'm in the back. But it's emotional every year because I know when I start the race, like the kids that I'm running with that I've coached all season, they're all ahead of me. And if something goes wrong, you know, I'm their safety net, right? Like and then I tell them, we're committed, like we'll we will get you across the line. We all have some great stories to tell you, and we might have some tears, but we will keep moving forward and we'll get there. But it's emotional because everybody laces up their shoes for a different reason. Everybody has a story, everybody has a why. And you know, like team and training, what a great way because when things get really hard for you, you can tap into the reason why you registered, which was for this greater purpose, right? Yeah, like joining a run club and finding your community and finding your people or running for a cause, or you know, there's all these reasons why you keep moving forward. Sometimes it's very personal and sometimes it's not, but everybody has a story. And I always look around, I'm like, why is he here? Why is she here? Look, look at the look on his face, and you know, what's he thinking about right now? It's like I go through all of these, you know, things in my head as I hear their feet pounding the pavement, and I can hear their their breath, and it's like, oh gosh, it's just the energy is awesome. I love it.

SPEAKER_06 36:39

Yeah. Now,

From Marathons To First Ultras

SPEAKER_06 36:42

how did this spiral to your first ultra?

SPEAKER_00 36:47

Oh gosh. I mean, I feel like with social media, the the stepping stones aren't the same as they were when I started. So when I started running marathons, um, I joined the Marathon Maniacs, which is a you know a marathon club that it's international. Um, and it was great because when you'd go to races, there were automatically people there part of the club, so you had an instant community. Well, after running so many marathons, I was like, well, I should probably try to qualify for Boston. And so I did that. Of course. Of course. So, you know, ran, qualified for Boston, went and ran Boston, and that's when I realized like I really hated it. Like, I don't like running that fast. It was very hard for me. I like breathing air. And so, but I'm also a goal-oriented person. So I thought you either, you either need to choose to try to keep PR ing or you know, things like that, or I want, or run farther. And so I was like, okay, well, I I really don't necessarily want to try to beat my my PR in the marathon, but I'd like to see if I could maybe, you know, run a 50K. So I registered for my first 50K and and then registered for my second one two weeks later. So I ran a 50K and then two weeks later another 50K.

SPEAKER_06 38:02

Which were those two?

SPEAKER_00 38:03

Which kind of why would you do that? But because it's because it's the way, it's the way I do things, you know. I don't just like to present the pattern here. Right. I'm just gonna jump into the deep end, just like, you know, go go for it. And and when I finished the 50K, it like broke me in certain ways, but I felt so alive, like being around all of the nature, and I just felt like the people were so down to earth, and the aid stations were so much fun. And then after doing the 250Ks, then I was like, well, now that I've done the 50Ks, maybe I can't. And which 250Ks?

SPEAKER_06 38:38

I want to know these.

SPEAKER_00 38:39

My first one was a race called Mount Disappointment.

SPEAKER_06 38:43

Oh, I don't know that one.

SPEAKER_00 38:44

And it's it runs uh part of the um AC100 course. It's up, you know, in um in Los Angeles. It it doesn't even, I think, I don't think it exists anymore. And then the second one was Bulldog, which um is in the Santa Monica Mountains, and I still do run that one. Or I've it that one still exists. I haven't run that one in a while. Um, and then the first 50 miler that I ran was Avalon 50. Ah, excellent one! You know, you know how I feel about that one. I love that one. And um, I think that's a great first. That was before they had a 50k, like they only had the 50 miler back then. And fun fact, when it was pure, you're so funny. Fun fact is uh when I ran that one, it was also Western States qualifier back then.

SPEAKER_04 39:32

Oh, oh, back when Western States qualifiers for 50 miles.

SPEAKER_00 39:38

So yeah, so I it seems like forever ago. Yeah, so of course I had to, you know, enter the Western States lottery at that point. Um that was the thing that got me into ultra running. It was I had run so many marathons, like I'd run more than I think more than 50 at that point, and I had done Boston, and it was really just a a natural progression of self in how far can I push this? What am I capable of? Um, and then of course, as you run more, you meet more people that do more things and you hear stories, which makes it feel more possible to you. Yeah, which is why I normalizing it. Tell people, right? Normalizing it. So, which is also why I tell people like, don't be afraid to share your story of your 5K or your 10K because you don't know who you're inspiring to just walk to the mailbox. Like, you don't know who needs to see your transformation process to feel comfortable enough to lace up their shoes for the first time, you know? And so I think, but but social media has also gotten so big and so crazy that I feel like things are so glamorized that sometimes what we lose is like the the grit of it. We lose sometimes like the the dirty parts, and don't just share the the Kodak moment, like share the the dirty parts too, like share the hard parts too, because because people need to see that also. That's what we're all about running with problems here, and it wasn't an overnight success, right? It it it happened intentionally over time with issues, and then you got there, right? I mean, yes, I have had one unicorn race, one hundred miler, that was like everything fired perfectly, no issues.

SPEAKER_04 41:26

Tell us about that. I want to hear about that. But then I want to go back to your my love first I have one, I have one unicorn hundred as well, and it's just like it just it just stands out because it's like because it doesn't matter. I like it was hard, but I just like even killed it like through.

SPEAKER_06 41:47

Yeah, I have one too.

SPEAKER_04 41:48

Yeah, but you only have one total.

SPEAKER_00 41:51

Oh wow, well don't do another one being cut.

SPEAKER_04 41:53

She did she did kill it in her first, she negative split in her first hundred.

SPEAKER_00 41:59

Who does that?

SPEAKER_04 42:00

Yeah, who does that? I don't know who does that.

SPEAKER_06 42:02

Oh god, crazy. What was your first unicorn? What was your unicorn?

A Unicorn 100 And Grand Slam

SPEAKER_00 42:07

My unicorn race was Vermont 100.

SPEAKER_04 42:09

Oh, was it hot or muddy or both?

SPEAKER_00 42:12

Um it was, I would say it was warm but not overwhelmingly hot, and we got a massive rainstorm and it became very muddy. But um, it was in 2016 when I was doing the Grand Slam of Ultra Running. So I had just run Western States, and then you know, it was like an I think two and a half, two or three weeks later, I can't remember what what it was.

SPEAKER_04 42:34

It's so short that timeline.

SPEAKER_00 42:35

Very short. And um, you know, really my my goal was to finish because with the Grand Slam, I just, you know, need to finish. But they were only awarding belt buckles to people that finished under 24 hours. So I don't know if that rule still stands, but then you could only get a buckle if you finished in under 24 hours. So I was like, it would be great if I could finish in under 24 hours.

SPEAKER_04 42:57

I mean, it's not a grand slam unless you have four belt buckles.

SPEAKER_00 42:59

Right. Well, I mean, it would be nice, right? It would be nice. But you do get a trophy at the end, but it would be nice to have all four belt buckles. So um I didn't, I didn't have um any pacers, and I just threw it out there on social media, like, hey, is you know, on the gram, like, is anybody out in this area and want to pace? And um, and someone answered, and I'm totally blanking on her name right now. I cannot even believe that I'm blanking. I'm gonna blame menopause on this. But she showed up at like mile 70 and ran 30 miles with me. And she and I had the best time. I mean, we just like laughed and giggled and talked the whole time, and then all of a sudden, this massive rainstorm hits. I mean, it's like thunder and lightning, like gnarly stuff. And I'm like, look, I'm doing the slam, so I'm gonna get struck by lightning if need be. I'm going for this. You don't need to put yourself in danger. She's like, I'm in it, let's go. And we just, I mean, I never had any cramping. I didn't have any stomach issues, I didn't throw up, which I always even in even in the East Coast.

SPEAKER_04 44:00

Like heat and humor. Nothing.

SPEAKER_00 44:01

I had increased incredible moments with the horses. Like it was just amazing. Finished in dumping rain and finished in 22 hours. Finished in 2023 hours. That is so fast. Yeah. So under the 24 hours. So I got the belt buckle, and I think I was like 10th female or something. So it was just like the best race. But it I didn't care about any of that. I was just having so much fun.

SPEAKER_06 44:26

So how did you turn your mindset around for the hundred-mile distance with these early DNFs for your start? Oh, we're skipping some stories.

SPEAKER_00 44:38

I I hadn't I hadn't DNF'd before I ran a hundred. Like I finished two, I finished two 50Ks, I finished the 50 miler, and then I was running another marathon with a friend.

Signing Up For A First 100

SPEAKER_00 44:51

And I was now my brain is thinking about the hundred. Yeah. You know, it's like, oh, well, maybe I could do that. And then I had just finished a marathon with a friend that was running his hundredth marathon. And he's like, oh, this is so great. And it was a Sunday. And he said, I hope I'm recovered by Saturday. I'm like, well, what's Saturday? And he said, Oh, I'm running the nanny goat. I'm like, what's the nanny goat? And he goes, It's a hundred mile race in Riverside, where you run a one mile loop over and over until you finish a hundred miles. And I said, Who the fuck would ever want to do that?

SPEAKER_04 45:20

100-mile race in Riverside.

SPEAKER_00 45:22

I said, That sounds really fucking stupid. And who would ever want to do that? Like, that's what I said to him. Agreed. Right?

SPEAKER_05 45:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:29

And he's like, I don't know. It's it sounds seems good. Like you're all you're near your stuff, no worries, whatever. And um, and so anyway, that night I get home and someone else posted something about six days to Nanny Goat. And I was like, okay, now I've heard about it twice. What is this? So I look it up online, it shows up on Ultra Sign Up and it says one spot left. So I'm I'm upstairs on the computer, my husband's downstairs. I'm all babe! What do you think about me running a hundred miles on Saturday? And he goes, What? And I go, there's one spot left. And he goes, Let's do it.

SPEAKER_04 46:06

Okay. You got a good husband.

SPEAKER_06 46:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 46:09

Support him. Good husband.

SPEAKER_00 46:10

So I clicked the button. I registered. No training cycle have you, like, at all. Like it was.

SPEAKER_04 46:16

I mean, you would just run a marathon, right?

SPEAKER_00 46:18

I just run a marathon. I mean, at this point, I was a multi-weekend offender at marathoning. You know, like I'd run a marathon on Saturday or on Sunday, and then, you know, run another one the next weekend. That was not uncommon. You know, two in a weekend. I had done that.

SPEAKER_04 46:31

So your long runs were up to 25 miles. That's about that's about what a hundred mile training looks like.

SPEAKER_00 46:37

And well, and and I thought, and uh, it's a one mile loop over and over. So, you know, it's not like I had to worry about it, it was relatively flat. I didn't have to worry about if you're getting lost, or you know, right? I was near my take a nap. Yeah. And so I registered, and then and then once I did, I was like, okay, I better figure out what I'm doing. So I started asking questions like, does anybody have any advice? And I asked people that I knew that were into ultra running what their advice was. And, you know, people told me things like, you know, start slow and go slower, and then, you know, take care of your hydration, take care of your nutrition, like those kind of things. Um, but when I started the race, I thought you had to finish in 24 hours. I thought that was the the deal that you had 24 hours to finish this hundred miler. And I really didn't understand that doing 100 milers in 24 hours, regardless of the course, was good. Like it didn't, I didn't, I didn't know.

SPEAKER_04 47:30

You didn't know what what the expectations were, right?

SPEAKER_00 47:32

I didn't at all. I didn't know. And so once I started the race, I was like at mile 10. And this girl says to me, She's like, I just hope I get to mile 80 by 24 hours. And I was like, wait, what? You hope to get to mile 80 by 24 hours. We have to finish 100 by 24 hours. She goes, No, no, you have to get to mile 80 by 24 hours. And if you do that, then you get four more hours to complete your 100. Otherwise, there's people out there running the 24-hour race, they only have 24 hours just to do what they can. But those that want a hundred, you actually have 28 hours.

SPEAKER_03 48:02

Oh, yeah, you give mixed. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 48:04

So then I'm like, I have four hours that I didn't even know I had, because I had this little pace chart out, you know, like of all the splits I had to do, and I had dedicated one mile of every single like a mile to a different person. So every mile I'd I'd look at my list and then I'd think about that person on the loop and think about that person. So and the last loops were my my kids and my my husband. So it's like I wanted to get to the the final miles to honor them, right? But yeah, so I had this extra time I didn't even know about it, but I did end up finishing in under 24 hours. So amazing.

SPEAKER_06 48:41

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 48:42

Wow.

SPEAKER_06 48:44

That's that's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 48:45

But I mean, again, it was a very flat course. I didn't know what I was doing. I had a great support system, and I consider myself pretty lucky. But you know, I had this one section of the course that I walked every single time. I'd run, and then I get to this one section, I'd walk it. And so it was just, I don't know, it was fun. It was a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_06 49:02

And then you you what you tried to do, was it AC in Leadville within a couple of weeks of each other?

SPEAKER_00 49:09

I ran nanny goat the first year, and then I didn't do another hundred till the next year when I did nanny goat again, and that's when I started becoming obsessed with bad water.

Chasing Badwater And Learning From DNFs

SPEAKER_00 49:18

Ah and that and that's what did it for me. I was like, I knew people that were running and finishing Badwater, and I was like, you know what? I don't want to just do a hundred just for the sake of doing a hundred. Like, I want to do something really hard. And so I started reading everything I could on Badwater. I went to the Can I ask why? I I'm thinking that too.

SPEAKER_04 49:43

I mean, it's not it's not like you're in a company that disagrees. Right.

SPEAKER_00 49:47

Well, for me, I was so accustomed to road running because remember, I'm a marathoner. So Badwater is road, um, not you know, not mountainous, why elevation?

SPEAKER_04 50:00

Why one of the hardest races you've ever heard of?

unknown 50:02

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 50:04

I don't know why, other than I just thought I had done one and I knew that I'd have to do other things to get there. It to me that was gonna be like the end game.

SPEAKER_04 50:15

Did it feel like a goal? Like this is this is inachievable, but like kind of out of the reach.

SPEAKER_00 50:20

Really scary, right? Like, so I knew I'd have to run other races to qualify and get to Badwater, so I'd have to do other stuff. But in my mind, I that was like where I was kind of hanging up the shoes of ultra running or something. Like even my dad, my dad wanted me to get into triathlon. He said, Andrea, I feel very concerned about your running. I think it would be safer if you would become a triathlete.

SPEAKER_04 50:40

But more people die in the water, triathlete.

SPEAKER_00 50:43

Let me tell you, on the bike, actually.

SPEAKER_01 50:45

And so since the boulder, the boulder iron man doesn't run anymore because two people died on the bike.

SPEAKER_00 50:52

See, it's just it's it's crazy. I mean, since then I think he's happy that I've stuck with ultra running, but I told him, I said, after I checked this box of bad water off the list, and I wanted to run it by the time I turned 40. Like that was the thing. I would like to run it by the time I turned 40. And so um, so after reading everything, I started looking at, okay, I have to have three hundred milers in order to apply, but they can't be a nanny goat because they weren't accepting nanny goats. Right. They need to be other things, right? And um, so I immediately signed up to pay cruise crew and pace. So I did that, and then I st and then I started just crazy registering for a bunch of hundreds. Like I am green, I'd run two nanny goats, and now I'm signing up for AC100 and Leadville 100 two weeks apart. True to your neighbor.

SPEAKER_01 51:52

If anybody's listening, maybe like maybe don't do this until you know what you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 51:58

But you know, the thing is that I registered for AC 100 and I didn't have intention of registering for Leadville, but I won a Strava contest.

SPEAKER_05 52:08

Oh what?

SPEAKER_00 52:10

I did. I won a Strava contest, and so I got entry into Leadville through Strava.

SPEAKER_02 52:15

Okay, well, yeah, sure. Sure. Just try it, see what happens. You just you just go up to 10,000 feet and you just see what happens.

SPEAKER_00 52:22

Well, and and honestly, I was too stupid to know the difference. Like I was honestly too stupid to know I didn't know what I didn't know. I was I was smart enough to to come to races prepared. Like I definitely looked and I brought too much gear. I always overpack, even still to this day. I'm I'm an extreme overpacker. But I I definitely had the gear and nutrition and all of those things, but it just I I was too dumb to know like what the altitude would do and and to adequately train in the appropriate terrain. And you know, I just at that point I wasn't doing those things like I do now. I put myself more in such in similar situations to prepare. But I also the the other part is I didn't know how to resolve issues. I didn't know how to focus on the thing. And the problem solving aspect. That's that's the part that really got me in AC 100 and also in Leadville is I didn't know how to overcome those things. I also didn't know that when you have an issue, it doesn't last the whole rest of the race.

SPEAKER_04 53:24

Right. The whole uh was it David Horton doesn't always get worse.

SPEAKER_00 53:28

Exactly. It's just it doesn't always get worse. And so, you know, when when you're in that mindset so early, you know, you're only 50 miles in and you're throwing up and feeling so terrible, and you're thinking, I'm going to feel this way for 50 more miles, and how could I possibly feel this way for 50 more miles? Right, you it's it was a very easy, you know. I just I in both cases I missed the cutoff. However, the first time I realized later when I was trying to write my race report that I had self-sabotaged myself. Like I had I was sitting down when I shouldn't be sitting down, and I was like, I was intention, it was intentionally, unintentionally, intentionally slowing myself down to miss the cutoff. I didn't think I was at the time, but later when I sat down, I was like, oh, I really screwed myself over. I did that on purpose. I didn't think I did, but I I did. My subconscious totally threw it.

SPEAKER_04 54:19

What um what would Andrea of today do differently in those situations?

SPEAKER_00 54:26

So I still sit down sometimes, but um when I'm not in an aid station, but I do that less. I try to at least get myself to an aid station. And if you're feeling miserable, like you're gonna feel miserable while you're walking. So I I try to take like much shorter, like if I have to sit down and just kind of group regroup mentally, I'll do that. But you you feel terrible when you're walking, as terrible as you feel when you're sitting. So you may as well just be moving forward and and doing that. Um, so I was I would be like, get up, let's go, we're walking, just move.

SPEAKER_04 55:01

There was a there's a documentary, I'm trying to remember which one. I maybe I can't remember it for the life of me, but um somebody was saying, like, you can like you can eat while you're walking, you can cry while you're walking, you can pee while you're walking, you can just keep walking.

SPEAKER_00 55:17

Just keep walking.

SPEAKER_04 55:18

And I've I've internalized that a ton. Like efficiency, especially for mid-packers, is like your biggest gain.

SPEAKER_00 55:25

That's right.

SPEAKER_04 55:27

If you just don't sit down very much and you just keep moving, even if it's slow, that's you're gonna finish way better.

SPEAKER_00 55:34

You're still moving in the right direction, right? I mean, any motion, any movement forward is is inching you closer to that finish line. Sitting down is just the clock burning at that point. That's all it is. But you're so right. I mean, the mid the mid-packers, especially, like, we can't be wasting any time. Uh that's all, you know, it the clock doesn't stop because you do, so keep moving.

SPEAKER_04 55:56

I mean, sure you could put in giant training blocks, but you have a life to live. You have kids to coach, right? Like, what's your biggest gain? It's literally just like if you can do things to make sure that you're always moving forward at an average pace.

SPEAKER_06 56:10

Yep. What did you do to after these two back-to-back DNFs? You have this bad water goal insight. How did you reset your motivation and mindset?

SPEAKER_00 56:23

I mean, I so I wanted to apply in 2014 as a tester, and I had limited time to be able to get the hundreds I needed. So I couldn't, I could not sit there and dwell on it. I had to just go to the I had to get to the next race. So you had you really had your eye on this goal, and that motivation is impressive because you're because 2013 I went out and I crewed and paced to see if I even like you have this idea, and I thought I need to see it in real life, yeah, and experience it to decide if I'm like crazy talking to myself or if there's something there. And I went there. Oh my gosh. I was like hooked. I was like, this is it. I need to be back here next summer. Or, well, you know, another some summer. But really, I needed to run it by 2015, and that would have been my 40th, my 40th birthday year. And so so I just I had I just had to shift my mindset. I sat down, I tried to write a race report, and when I realized during the race report that I had self-sabotaged the first time, the second time at Leadville, I feel like I did most things right, but I wasn't um very good at altitude. I hadn't trained in that, so I was like, okay, so let's pick things that are not, you know, at altitude or like that kind of thing. I could, I could climb, I was good at at moving, but I just I was getting sick at the altitude. So we'll try to keep it you know lower than 10,000 feet. And um, and then I just really wanted to apply, just really wanted to apply. So I just I started racking them up, putting them on the books.

SPEAKER_04 58:00

And did you were you able to apply?

SPEAKER_00 58:02

I did, I I was able to apply in 2014 as as lucky. And you had to have it. I got in.

SPEAKER_04 58:07

Wait, all of your qualifiers were between like Leadville in August and then the application date for 2014.

SPEAKER_00 58:16

Back then it wasn't as hard to get in at like at it's it's much harder now to get into many of these races than it was when I first started ultra running some of these races, right?

SPEAKER_04 58:26

Even um everything's so hard to get into the colour. Well, the first thing the bear has a lottery.

SPEAKER_00 58:31

The AC when I ran AC 100 the first time, I just registered and it was only like a couple months before it. It just clicked the button and registered. There was not even a lottery or anything for that race.

SPEAKER_06 58:41

So even Avalon, you used to be able to like show up race day and sign up.

SPEAKER_00 58:44

Yeah, it's not definitely not like that anymore. But um, yeah, so my two nanny goats counted, you had to have at minimum three hundreds, but he said he didn't want a bunch of loop courses. So I did have the two nanny goats, and then I finished Chimera 100, which is no longer here, it's up in the um Santa Ana Mountains, the Cleveland National Forest, right here where I live. And it's, I mean, it's a beast. It is it, I wish that race would come back, but I really attribute that race to all of my future successes because it was so gritty and so hard. Um, and it was the very last Western States qualifier of the season. So we always had athletes flying in from like all around the world to run this race because it was the last chance race. It was in November, right before, you know. So I had that and then a race called EC 100, which was Endurance Challenge 100, and it was a point-to-point that started in Corona and ended at the Santa Monica Pier. So that, so yes, so I had 400 milers planned from because AC 100 was in August. So between August and November.

SPEAKER_02 59:50

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 59:51

As a as a rookie, like as a as a I don't know what I'm doing, just that is impressive. I told you I jump into the deep end. But now badwater, then and talk about the deep end.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:03

Badwater is the definition of the deep end. How did your first

Badwater Reality And Crew Dynamics

SPEAKER_04 1:00:08

badwater go? How did the like the crewing situation like it was great?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:13

So my first badwater was the weird year where they couldn't get the permit into Death Valley. Oh, yeah. So it started in Lone Pine. We ran up Horseshoe Meadow to Horseshoe Meadows, came back down, then we ran towards the Badwater Basin. We turned Darwin and came back, and then the the last part of oh wait, we went up to Cerro Gordo to the mining town, then went out to um Darwin, then we ran the the whole last part of the normal Badwater course.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:43

I didn't know about this.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:44

So elevation-wise, it had way more climb. That was the year, by the way, that David Goggins DNF. So shout out to the Goggs, man. I beat you that year. Woop woo.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:54

Shout out to the Goggins. We know he's listening.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:58

No, but it's cooey, man. I was like really fangirling on him back then, too. It's before he was even like super popular. But so my crew was like, oh yeah, Goggins is he's like, he's out right now. He's like laying in his hotel room. He's like regrouping. I was like, what? And they're like, yeah, you're ahead of him right now. I'm like, what? Yeah, you're ahead of Goggins. And then he passed me and I'm like, way to get back at it, you know. And then and then I heard later, like I never saw him again. Because what was cool about that year is you did go back and forth by people because you know, you had to run up to Horseshoe Meadow and back down, so you were gonna pass people there. Then you were headed um down towards Death Valley, you had to go up to Cerro Gordo and back down, so you'd pass people there, and then you'd run all the way out to down uh Darwin and back so you pass people there. So it was it was kind of neat because you got to see the other competitors that you wouldn't normally see, cheer on the front runners and things like that. But he uh Chris had put me in the middle wave, uh, which was perfect because I was like a Trimid Packer, but I was standing there before the start, and Chris looks out um and someone else said, Wait, is she the only female in this wave? And we looked around, I was the only female in that wave. So all the guys pushed me forward, and so now I'm standing in the front of all these beastly guys, you know, and I was like, Oh my gosh, like I felt so tiny and I felt so like inexperienced, but also it's like just it, I was so stoked to be there. As soon as we started running, I looked around, I'm like, I'm running bad water, you guys. Like, I'm running, I'm running bad water right now. I'm here, I made it, I'm here running badwater. I did it. I'm here.

unknown 1:02:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:30

And then the crewing was great. I mean, um, my husband, he he was on my crew, um, and then three other guys at all male crew. And um, you know, we had we had some problems, but not not too many. I ended up finishing in the top third of you know the field. It was my best body water time I had ever had, and I've run it three times.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:50

Um, and so you got to run the standard course.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:53

Yes, two more times. I did get to run the standard course, but of course, yeah, I wanted to beat my first year time, and I still haven't. And um, I the last time I ran it was 2017. So I'm thinking maybe next year, if I don't get into hard rock because I'm really trying to get back to hard rock, then I'll reapply for about I know somebody who would like to be on your crew. Would you? I'm kind of a pain in the ass. I'm just gonna be like, not kind of. I'll let you talk to people before you decide.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:23

Oh my gosh, you can't be more of a pain in an ass than uh John has been.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:28

Are you kidding me? I am a good, I am easy to crew.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:31

Are you are you that is that is every ultra rumor, and they're all wrong. They're all wrong. We're a bunch of babies.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:39

No, I am not a baby. Okay, except when I fell apart.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:43

He literally cried on the trail like a baby before.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:47

Okay, yeah, that that did happen.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:49

That did happen.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:49

Uh if you have a bad stomach and you can't handle seeing people vomit, I am not the person to crew or pace because you have a puking problem, apparently. I have a puking problem. It's terrible. Yeah, it's terrible. What do you know what it is? Well, so I do have um a condition called gastritis, so I have like uh, you know, uh some tummy issues. Um, but I it I don't really know. I think that I fuel and hydrate well, but you just puke and rally though.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:23

You've just gotten used to it. I used to.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:25

I've I've gotten used to it. When I first started ultra running and that was happening, you know, I I couldn't picture how you could keep going. Now it's like I'll throw up, I'll cry a little, wipe it off, and then just and it's crazy because you will feel better for a while, and sometimes the whole rest of the race. But um not always. Sometimes you're just in it and it's just gonna be with you, you know, on and off, like the whole time.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:48

It seems like there's some acceptance.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:51

I have definitely come to a position of acceptance of it. You know, it's kind of like I I don't love it, but if I want to keep doing these distances, which which I do, then I have to just be okay with something I don't like.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:05

At some level, all of you has done all these amazing things.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:12

What do you mean, all of me?

SPEAKER_04 1:05:13

Right, like including including the gastritis, right? Like including every like you have to like if you're going to love yourself, right? You have to love all of it. All of it. Even the bad parts.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:24

But see, I'm lucky that like I don't get really bad blistering, right? Like, I know people look at this mindset. Okay, but seriously, there are people that like have blistering that is so bad. I mean, I've seen and like the bottoms of their feet are falling apart and off and like I have you watched Running on the Sun? So years ago, I need to go back, but like we watch it like twice a year.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:50

Are you serious?

SPEAKER_04 1:05:51

Yeah, we love that. You can get it on YouTube with German subtitles. It's it's I I wish I could buy this film. I have it on DVD.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:59

I have it on DVD. DVD.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:01

But I don't have a DVD player, so I just watched it on YouTube.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:04

I do have a DVD player. I'm old school. I still have the DVD player. I should rewatch it, but I don't like I cringe when I'm seeing people's like feet and stuff like that. I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:13

Marshall Ulrich in that movie shows you his toes without toenails?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:17

No, it's terrible. It's terrible.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:19

Don't just That's worse than puking to me.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:22

It's bad. But also way more painful. Like if you think about it, when something happens like that to your feet, you're going to feel it every step. Like you're gonna feel it every step for the rest of the time. Every single step.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:33

How lucky am I that I get to just puke a bit and maybe have some nausea, you know? And it's less pain, I think, than having my feet hurt like that. And the recovery from puking is like I'm not recovering for weeks or days from it, right? Like when I finish a race, I'm usually just able to chow down right away. People that their feet are all trash, they're walking on eggshells for and nails for like weeks after.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:06

They definitely can't do the back hundreds like you.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:10

This is how I'm going to approach my pots when I return to running and be like, at least I don't have fucking pukey problems and blisters.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:20

Well, see, that's I mean, everybody, so everybody out there has something going on. We're we're not getting, I mean, until you have the one unicorn race or whatever, we're not getting out of it without some kind of issue, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:07:33

And almost every single race has a different issue or like a different way it presents.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:38

Right. So, you know, you just have to you have to be okay with not being okay for you know bits of time and then trust that it's not going to last the whole time. Trust that it will get better and keep moving until it does. And if it doesn't, you keep trusting that it's and at least if you're moving forward, you're getting closer to the finish line. So Yeah, and then it will end. And then it will end.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:00

I told my therapist at one point that's just a good way to start a start a story, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:09

So good.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:10

So I told my therapist this one time that you know I had this mantra that everything ends.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:16

And and she was like, Oh, that's so dark, John. And I was like, Well, I mean, yeah, we're not getting out of it alive, not that the good things end, but the bad things end too.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:25

That's right.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:27

And the way I usually phrase it on a race is that like everything ends, including the stupid climb. Totally. Meaning, like, even if I move as slow as I possibly can, eventually it will end. There's no I'm forgetting the guy's name, Paradox, where if you move half as fast as you moved before, then you'll never actually reach your goal. Like that that's not actually a thing. Anyone remember the paradox? No?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:52

I don't remember it, but sorry.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:53

Your good your Greek math history is all lacking.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:56

You just need to keep moving forward, is the point. Just keep moving forward. But I love that you have a therapist because I have a therapist too, and I feel like if you're ultra running, chances are you probably should have a therapist if you don't already know.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:08

There's this weird breed of like these new runners, they didn't get into it for the same reasons we did. They got into it because it's like fun or something.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:17

Cool, because social media, yeah. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:19

They don't have like deep-rooted problems. Well, we are about to fuck them up.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:26

They're not they're not getting out of this without some problems. Really? Yeah. Oh man. She's one of the lucky. No childhood trauma?

SPEAKER_04 1:09:35

Very little.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:36

Oh man.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:38

It's remarkable, actually.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:40

That's awesome.

unknown 1:09:41

I love

Barkley Obsession And Navigation Training

unknown 1:09:42

that.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:42

Barkley. Okay. Okay, okay. So let's get it.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:44

When you when you were describing running Badwater, it reminded me of my feeling. Like when, like, oh my god, I'm running Badwater. Like, it reminded me of the feeling when I ran Barkley.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:54

And so, like, let's talk about Barkley. That's where we met.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:57

That's where we met. That's right.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:59

Um, so let's talk about your story with Barkley applying and getting in and running.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:05

So you hear about the Bark. And you know, if you're a runner, especially if you're ultra running and people hear that you ultra run, if they know something about it, at some point somebody's gonna say to you, Have you heard about the Barclay? Have you heard about the Barkley? And have you run the Barkley yet? Have you run the Barclay yet? You know? And it's like, and so you know, I was like, Yes, I've heard about it. And no way, I I don't want to do it. Well, then I got to a point where I was doing so many races. I mean, I'd completed the grand slime of vulture running. I had run Mount Galagong in China, you know, I had had um, you know, some really good races. And when that happens, you know, it starts to open the realm of possibility. And so now I'm like, I think that I would like to try the Barclays. I'd like to give it a shot. And so I um started researching and figuring out what I needed to know for that. And in 2017, I went out and ran the Barclay Fall Classic. There, it's the mini-versions, baby version. I know you know what it is, John, for other people. It's for the listeners. Um, you know, it's the baby version of the Barclay. It starts um in Frozen Head, starts and ends in Frozen Head. And it's, you know, you get to run on some of the iconic trails that you've heard about or seen in the documentary, but it is nothing like, it doesn't mimic, it doesn't mirror, it is not the Barclay, but it it has a mystique and a feeling, and it and it's Laz. It's still a mind child, brainchild of Laz, and still, it's still off the wall.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:33

And in and of itself, it's probably one of the hardest 50Ks you can sign up for.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:38

Without a doubt, it is it is the hardest, one of the hardest 50Ks you can sign up for.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:42

Probably because it's 40 miles.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:44

It's definitely not a 50K, let's put it that way. And so I ran that in 2017, similar to what I did with Badwater, right? Like I want to go and I want to kind of see what it is, put myself there and see how I feel about it. And I went there and um I loved it. And I was like, this is it. So in 2017 is when I first applied. I started talking to people and I had one person. How'd you find out share? I'm not telling you how I found out, but because I will, you know, protect that person forever. And um I didn't even know if I was doing it right because you know, I I didn't know if that person was lying to me.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:25

Right. No, I it's it's such a black hole the first time I applied. You just get no response. No idea. I don't even know if I was accepted. I have no idea.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:34

No idea. No idea. So I mean I applied every single year since 2017.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:40

And so I'm finally fine now. They email you back telling you you didn't get in.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:46

This year I didn't get anything. I didn't even get a no. You didn't get you didn't get no. Maybe they're not kind. Well, they will send emails sometimes to people to encourage you to keep applying, which I have gotten some of those since my big failure at Bark. Um, but I haven't gotten those. So I I did get um this year was my last year applying, though. I've decided I I wrote, I wrote, I wrote the Barclay a Dear John letter. That was my okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:20

I I want to hear about that. But we should we should we should go a little bit chronologically. Yeah, let's talk about getting in. You you found out you're in. Yeah, what's your mindset? How do you train?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:32

Oh my gosh. So this so this was 2023.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:36

Yes, yeah, we Andrea and I ran together.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:39

2022, I got on the wait list. Yep. So 2022, I knew that I was probably going to be running in 2023 because that's kind of the progression. You get waitlisted first, and then maybe you get in the next year.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:55

And the list was going quickly in COVID.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:57

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:58

Because the international runners were barely able to attend.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:02

So, in as soon as I knew that I was in, all of a sudden panic set in because I thought of all the things I should have been doing that I hadn't done, right? Like I knew that I was strong on mountainous climbs, I know that I can suffer really well, but my navigation skills were definitely lacking. So I immediately reached out to um to Nicodemus and said, you know, hey, I'd like to hire you from some actually, I had started working with Nicodemus the year before because I said I have two goals. I want to finish, I want to get in and finish Hard Rock, and I want to get in and finish the Barclay Marathons.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:42

He's a great coach for that.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:43

Right. And so I I had been working with him when I DNF Hard Rock, and then I was, and then I continued working with him. So I was like, okay, we really I need to crank this up. We need to kick this in the high gear. And then I reached out to an orienteering coach. So I started entering some orienteering contests and doing that. Um, and I went and took some map reading classes, and um, I felt like I could hold my own but still very nervous about it. I didn't feel very good about it.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:23

I think the most important skill when it comes to map reading and orientation at Barkley is like being able to spatially represent a topology. Yes. And like map that to what you're seeing in the world. Right, like like seeing a ridge split and being able to find that on the map. And seeing a ridge split on the map and being able to find that on the world. Right, like those two.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:46

If you if you get to good ridge splits, that's the hard part about the Barclay, is I just feel like you're under tree lines so samey that there's just not there's not many places to reorient yourself. And also I need so at this point I need like readers. And for me, it was really hard to like my husband got me like clear goggles that had some, you know, magnification on it, but I was having difficulty like reading my compass because I'm not gonna run with glasses and I don't wear, you know, like I can see everything fine, but when I'm reading, I need glasses.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:25

That's a big disadvantage.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:27

It's it's weird because it's something I didn't really consider so much when all of a sudden we have those pages of turn by turn directions that you're pulling out trying to, you know, consult and like navigate by looking at the map and then looking at the compass. And that part, because I didn't train enough with like a map in my hand, and I definitely didn't train with turn by turn directions, that slowed me down. And I was in the back, I mean, I was all the way in the back of the pack from the very beginning. And so I didn't even have the luxury of being with like a veteran that knew what they were doing to kind of help f kind of follow a little bit or multiple eyes. It was me and this this other girl, and she and I, you know, Aaron, we just we were searching together. It's like an egg hunt, right? Like if there's five of you looking to the book, yeah, it's easier to find the book if there's five of you in the same spot. You're like, I got it, great. And then we all go there, but it's divide and conquer. If it's just one of you or just two of you, fewer eyes to find it. And once you know where it is, then the next loop, it should, in in theory, be easier to find, although you're coming the opposite direction. So things are.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:34

Although people get fucked up all the time. All the time.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:37

All the time. But you know, but it it just um like you said earlier, I felt like a kid in a candy store when I got there. I was sitting there in disbelief. Like I am just an everyday person. I am, you know, I've been on the PTA and I volunteer my time in class and at the library, and you'll see me at the grocery store, and you know, and I, you know, I've done, I am just the everyday housewife. In fact, I've had trucker hats that said everyday housewife, normal housewife, because really that's that's how I that's how I see myself. I'm just like every other mom that's watching their kid, you know, up on stage at a school presentation. I'm just the everyday mom. So I was able to find my way there. And the only thing that's different about me versus like maybe the mom sitting next to me watching the the kid on stage is that I choose to do things that most people wouldn't want to do. But if that mom chose to, she could get there too. Like everybody has the capability of getting to the Barclay if they choose that they want to be there, and if they continue applying and applying and trying, and everybody has the opportunity to get there. But you have to relentlessly go after that goal. I mean, look, I applied every obsessed 17. You have to be obsessed. You have to because if you're not, then you might want it, but you don't want it that bad.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:04

You you have no one will tell you how to get in until you show them how obsessed you are and how much you earned.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:11

That's right. I mean, I've had so many people, so many people ask me.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:14

As soon as somebody just emailed me like two days ago.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:17

Oh my god, so many DMs on like Instagram randomly, Randos, like, hey, I'm from here, da da da. And I and and one, I don't know you. I am sorry, but I'm never ever going to ever tell a stranger. I'm not.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:30

It is. I I I said I came up with this last time I gave a denial. Is this that like it's on us to replicate the traditions of the Berkeley?

SPEAKER_00 1:19:40

Totally.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:41

Yeah. Right?

SPEAKER_00 1:19:42

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:42

And so um we earned our way by having to email a black personality.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:48

Trial and error, trial and error.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:50

I don't even know if my first two registrations were in. Like I don't know. No idea.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:53

I really don't know. I don't know. I don't know if I was doing it at the right time. I don't know if I was going to the right place. I don't know if I was giving the right information. I really don't know.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:02

No.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:02

I don't think so.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:03

They need that ambiguity because that's the Barclay. It's ambiguity distilled into a race.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:10

It is a mind fuck from the moment you decide you want to do it.

unknown 1:20:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:15

And it is even after you finish, because you will always replay it over and over and over and over again. What do you replay? Which part of it? Oh gosh. I mean, I replay the the first uh finding of the first book and then the the first, the big ron.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:39

You mean the the what is it find the rock that looks like a VW Beetle book is is like oh like five feet away behind another rock?

SPEAKER_00 1:20:50

Where the sun shines and the tree is falling on the north side of the horizon with a fine cone that's shaded brown.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:58

Yeah, that first book.

SPEAKER_06 1:21:00

This race is not for me. That's amazing. And wasn't the start line so somber and like the energy was so nervous?

SPEAKER_04 1:21:09

It was the most anxious start line I've ever been at.

SPEAKER_06 1:21:11

I expected more of like what you described at Badwater, like, oh my god, I'm running Badwater! But that was not at Barclay. It was like beer.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:20

It's because we all know, I mean, standing there at Badwater, they have a much higher finish rate, right? I mean, all of these races have a higher finish rate. Like you, the fates are not on your side. Like the the odds are not in your favor of this race at all. Like it is, it is pending doom. Like, seriously, it is not going to turn out for you well in almost every every scenario. It's

Knowing When To Walk Away

SPEAKER_00 1:21:48

just not. And and really, when I first started applying, I really believed I could finish it. I really did. In my heart and soul, I believed I could finish the thing. Like I really believed that I could be the first female finisher. And then as I got closer to getting in, because it took so many years to get in, um, you know, the doubt started setting in. And I think by the time I lined up there, I believed that I could do three loops, but I no longer believed I could finish. And then when I didn't even finish one loop, like that really hit hard to me. And so then I had to just start reevaluating like, I'm getting older, I'm not getting faster. I don't have the same hunger that I once did. You know, I don't have that. COVID really kind of, there's like the pre-COVID Andrea runner, and then there's the post-COVID Andrea runner. And this the post-COVID Andrea runner still likes to do hard things and still likes lining up with beastly stuff, but I don't stack my races like I used to. I I uh put my time in different areas, you know. Um, I used to spend a lot more time um in the mountains. I still spend time in the mountains, but it's more focused. Like if I'm training for something, then I'm, you know, doing these things and it's more casual running versus before when I was really trying to push certain pacing and whatever. So I had to ask myself when I finally decided that I didn't want to um keep applying and when I decided I'm gonna write my final Dear John letter. Like, is it fair for the other runners that want to run this race? Is it fair to them if I apply because selfishly I want to go back and try to get better? Can I be okay with the fact that what a celebration it is that I found out how to get in? That I didn't give up on my goal, that I lined up at that race, and that I gave it my best. My best was not good enough, but but can I be okay with that? And and is it better for the future of the sport and the future for other female athletes that want to get there if I'm not taking that spot? And I decided, yeah, it was time for it was time for me to back away from that one.

unknown 1:23:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:51

How did you feel when Jasmine finished? The best.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:56

Are you kidding me? Right. It's like it was it was like a celebration for all of us, right? I mean, here's the thing about Laz, and I think what people misunderstand, and I know you know this to be true too.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:07

To the listeners.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:08

To the listeners. Well, and I know I know you know this, John, to be true, but to the listeners, Laz says things to get a reaction out of people, not because he necessarily believes that. So when he said, I don't think a woman can finish it, I I know he didn't mean that. I I know he didn't. I know he knew a woman could finish it, but I also knew that he needed to light a flame that was not just, you know, barely burning. He needed to set the hill on fire. He needed people to get pissed. He needed enough women to just rise up and be like, oh yeah, I'll show you. You know, it's like that prove prove them wrong thing, right? And and because Laz is the biggest cheerleader of anybody I've ever met, he believes in the human spirit, and he totally roots for the underdog. He loves races that even the playing field, like, look at the things that he's come up with, right? I mean, some of these formats, they they force you to like check your ego at the door. Yeah. You know, you can't you can't just be some beastly macho guy that's like, I'm gonna go power this. Like, no, some of these things you have to be a little bit more calculated and like slow it down and use your brain. You have to like really, it cannot be just all focused on athleticism. There's strategy in these races. It's not, it's it's just so much more. And and the other thing is, women haven't been on the start line as many years as men have. Like, I don't even I don't know what year the first female lined up at the Barclays. And I would and I would be and I would yeah, that's very good. And I would also, I would also be interested to know. We'll figure it out and talk about it in the intro. Yeah, and what what female lined up, like what's the female that lined up the most amount of times, right? Because I think that that's the reason why we haven't had more female finishers, is you don't see the same females there year after year after year after year after year. And and and you're not going to see it either because it's so hard to get in that early in the earlier days, you could get out there and you could run it year after year for like three or four years. Now you can't. Like I sh if I was gonna truly have success there, I would have needed to have a decent showing the first year to be able to get in the second year and the third year. Like Jasmine, she she look at she progressively, because the course changes every year, you have to be there every year.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:38

Because it's a memorization race, it's not an orienteering race.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:41

You have to memorize that course, you have to memorize the course if you want to do it efficiently. And like Nicodemus said, the course had changed so much in the years that he wasn't there, it was like so different for him. Like you have to be there. It's like watching somebody, you know, when when you see somebody after a long time and they look so different, but when you see yourself in the mirror, like you don't see the the change as much, you know, or when you're with somebody every day, like that kind of thing. Like if you're running it year after year, those changes are small and they're not as as massive. They're incremental, they're small. But like, yeah. So I just think, you know, we will see more women finish, but it's gonna take the right kind of woman that's ready to keep going there year after year after year after year. And I just feel like I don't want to say that our lives are harder, but managing families, you know, the um I'm and I'm not gonna- I mean, it's the hardest job in the world. It's beautiful. It's definitely the hardest job, and we have big goals too. Um, but you know, it's it's hard, it becomes harder to navigate.

SPEAKER_05 1:27:42

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:44

Because the responsibility falls more on the mother, and I don't, and I don't necessarily that's because I don't think that's because the men push it on us. I think that's because innately that is what we are meant to do. So we will, you know, we have that nurturing side. So it we don't want to leave.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:00

And we don't want to, you know, to And the more time you spend in the mountains, the more time you're not with your kids, right? Like and even if that's just a um like if intellectually you know okay, this is just for a short time or whatever, but there's always an emotional pull.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:14

Yeah, there's a guilt, there's a guilt.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:16

And then the same thing exists for for men as well, but it's more socially acceptable. It's more um you know, like to be to be going after these sport things, it's more accepted for men. I mean, just like socially in society.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:29

Yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:30

It's like even that small pool creates a large difference in the start line.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:35

Yeah.

Staying In Community And What’s Next

SPEAKER_00 1:28:36

But I will say when we met doing our training for Bark, it was so nice to get there and to have people that you knew.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:44

Oh my god, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:46

It calmed it made it made the experience because you you're right, you get there and there's this like I was so anxious.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:53

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:54

My gosh, it's just like these this feel like this buzz, right? Like little pokey feeling on your shoulders and up your neck, and like it just it's an energy, right? And then to have people familiar faces, that was so calming and so good, you know. So I would say if you are planning on going and doing a race that's really big and scary, you know, try try to find somebody that you know and see them before the start line and just you know, have some something familiar, something that feels not so intimidating.

SPEAKER_06 1:29:24

Well, what's next for you, Andrea? It's a group. Oh that was a good piece of advice.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:30

So let's see. I've done all my big races for the year. Um, I do have the Barclay Fall Classic coming up again because even though I've written my official breakup letter to the Big Bark, I still want to be part of the community. Well, and I just love how hard the the fall classic is. The fall classic is fun. It's just it's fun, it's hard.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:50

I have my so East Coast too. It's like so different from like, say, Avalon.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:55

It's so it's just the vibes. I love it. If if any Where do you stay?

SPEAKER_04 1:30:00

Do you sleep on that guy's lawn?

SPEAKER_00 1:30:02

No, we we get an Airbnb. We have a great Airbnb that we've been getting year after year, and it holds multiple people, and it's like it's actually right around the corner from the prison. Um, so I have the Barclay Fall Classic, and then I'm I'm going back and forth with like adding another fall hundred because I I feel like I just should. I don't know. I'm at the point now where I'm really only running like 100 a year, but I'd like to be doing more than that. I think I'd like to top out at two or three.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:32

I know you say that, but it's like Yeah, but once you do one and then you're like in that period where you're not training, it's like I could be training now. I I got the time.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:42

Yeah, I I'm more focused on my runs and at the gym when I have something, you know, scary on the counter. And not that the fall classic's not scary because it is, it's just different scary. Like I need something crazy scary.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:57

I had my like best sub-100 performance at the Barclay Fall Classic. The one time I ran it.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:05

The one see, that was your unicorn. That was yeah, so but you should go back. You should you should come back. If you put your name in the hat, you'll probably get in because the last couple weeks there.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:16

I mean, I've been in like twice and didn't run because I just couldn't make it work, or I decided to run 100 instead or something. But right. It's maybe I would I would really like to go back to the classic as well. Maybe when I start running again, hopefully cross my fingers.

SPEAKER_06 1:31:32

And we'll see you there.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:33

Well, you will.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:34

We'll do it.

SPEAKER_06 1:31:35

Yeah, Andrea, I feel like we have like not even got to all of the topics I've wanted to get rid of. You're talking about this is Brenda. That's why you're gonna have to like pace me so we could like talk about stuff on the trail because it makes it so much better when like Yeah, and I've really I really want to chat with you about how you intentionally build community around you with running. So we'll reconnect on that topic for another time.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:01

We'll have to do a part two of an'd.

Final Advice And Closing

SPEAKER_06 1:32:05

So we like to end our podcast by having you give a piece of advice to our listeners. I mean, you've sprinkled advice throughout this episode, but what piece of advice would you like to end on?

SPEAKER_00 1:32:17

Um, my biggest piece of advice is buy yourself a good pair of running shoes and just lace them up and get outside. If you've not done any kind of race yet, just register for a 5K. If you've done a marathon and you're thinking about that ultra, don't think about it, just do it. Just register for it. And just just open up the possibility to the fact that you can do it. Just be open to it. Lace up your shoes. You never know where your shoes will take you. And it's just a beautiful thing. I love that.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:50

We believe in you.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:51

I believe me too.

SPEAKER_06 1:32:53

Andrea, thank you for joining us on Running with Problems.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:57

Thank you.