Welcome And Why POTS Matters

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Hello and welcome to Running with Problems. My name is John Eisen.

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I'm Miranda Williamson.

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Running with Problems is a podcast that explores the problems encountered during life in running. Today on the podcast, we have Christine Reed, a runner with long-term chronic POTS, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome, which is the same thing that I have been dealing with.

SPEAKER_04 0:35

Yes, this is an exciting episode.

SPEAKER_01 0:39

Very exciting. I was really, really looking forward to this. We had to reschedule once, but I I mean the entire episode, the entire interview was very cathartic for me because I just want to find out how do people run with this fucking disorder.

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And do you feel like you found that out?

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I did find that out. I don't know if I love the answer, but I I do love that I have one. And throughout this episode, you'll hear uh Christine's answer to all these questions about what pots is, how she's lived with it, um, and how she's thrived and flourished as a runner who deals

John Experiments With High Heart Rate

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with it.

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Yes. This is a very exciting episode. But before we get into that, John, how are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Oh, I am doing pretty well. I have actually gone running four times in the last week. I after we recorded with Christine, I got encouraged to just go out there and just suffer the high heart rate. The rest of my symptoms, you know, I don't want to experience those, you know, uh lightheadedness, um, vision symptoms. Don't experience those, but uh I'm willing to deal with a bit of slowness and a high heart rate. So I've been out there running. I ran four times, three to five miles each. And um, yeah, always in zone four. My my heart rate has been in zone four and five the whole time.

SPEAKER_04 2:07

Well, you were running well this morning.

SPEAKER_01 2:08

Yeah, yeah. I felt good, but you looked good. I mean, my heart rate was between 163 and 168, and I run a max of like 178. So yeah, that's pretty high heart rate for running the 10-minute miles we were running.

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And how do you feel afterwards with your heart rate being so high?

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I feel tired.

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Um Christine talked about that too.

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Yeah, and she'll talk about it in the episode. I mean, I feel like I have to put my legs up, or I've been putting my legs up after the runs, like above my head, to try and let the blood return so that my heart rate will come down. But I I kind of have a sustained higher heart rate after the run. Like we went for a rock walk with the dog, and my heart rate was still over 150 on a walk, which was pretty high. But, you know, if my heart's been cleared by all these cardio doctors, then there's really no downside to have to running a super high heart rate. It's just about whether my body's energy stores and my mind can push through the discomfort. The feeling of, hey, you shouldn't be there. So I'm working on it. But it's been really nice to get back to running.

SPEAKER_04 3:16

That's awesome. Um, and must be challenging as an ultrarunner where you have done the opposite. You've trained yourself to run in a low heart rate for long periods of periods of time and to listen to your body in that way.

SPEAKER_01 3:30

Yeah. I mean, as an ultrarunner, you know, being in zone two, three is that's where you always want to be.

unknown 3:36

Yeah.

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I found that challenging when I first started doing track workouts.

SPEAKER_01 3:41

Yeah.

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My as soon as I clicked into those like higher heart rate zones, my body naturally wanted to pull back.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

Yeah, it's very natural. That's how your body works, right? When you get into fight or flight, your your mind wants you to get out of fight or flight, to back off. Like, yeah, what is creating this situation that has your heart pumping that much? It's obviously not good for you. But I don't know. Uh, as an ultra runner, I've learned to deal with discomfort and to do things my mind doesn't want me to do. And this is just one more thing I have to learn along the way.

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One more challenge.

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I'm I feel like I'm relearning

Miranda Runs Through Colorado Smoke

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to run. Well, Miranda, how are you? Where did you get that raspy voice?

SPEAKER_04 4:26

Oh my goodness. Yes. Listeners, I don't normally sound like this, you'll know. Um I think, I think I got it from running this weekend in the smoke. So we have a lot of wildfires here in Colorado, and I went out to Aspen to run um a very epic run. There's this loop out there called the four-pass loop. We've mentioned it before on the pod.

SPEAKER_02 4:51

Yep.

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And me and my girlfriends and Brendan added an extra two passes. So it ends up being 33 miles, uh, over 10,000 feet of gain. All these mountain passes are above 12,000 feet, and you run six of them.

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It's pretty epic.

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Six mountain passes, and it is brutal and epic. And the first two were really freaking smoky.

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It the AQI has been pretty high lately out there.

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And I think I got really irritated from that. And, listeners, I did um push myself a bit on this run, um, which was really a lot of fun and pretty amazing to see what shape my body is in that that I could still uh chomp down some miles at the end of a 33-mile run after all of that climbing and descending.

SPEAKER_01 5:51

You're so fit. It's really fun to watch. I can't wait for your race in a few weeks.

SPEAKER_04 5:55

Yes, but let's hope this uh setback.

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A little cold-like symptoms.

SPEAKER_04 6:01

Yeah, I got two bloody noses. Oh, I never get bloody noses.

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Sniffles.

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Sniffles. I feel just congested, and I skip my track workout on Tuesday to try to like stay indoors because it was still smoky out.

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Yeah, the wildfires have been a challenge.

Race Weekends And Community Meetups

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I'm heading out to Hard Rock this weekend to work at Maggie Goldshade Station, My Lady5, and then I'm staying in the mountains to prepare for High Lonesome the following weekend. Shout out to anybody going out to High Lonesome. If you see me, uh come say hi.

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I'll be out there too.

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I wear a Wicker Cowboy hat at High Lonesome.

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I'll be on pacing and crewing duties.

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Yeah, come say hi to us if you see us. Love to hear from you uh at Hard Rock or High Lonesome. Uh, it'll be pretty fun.

SPEAKER_04 6:49

Yeah. So, Christine, should we get into Christine? What else should we say about her? Um, she has the podcast, an outdoorsy women book pod, um, which they interview um authors of outdoor adventure books.

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She's very findable on socials.

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And I will link to all the places you can find her in the show notes. She has a whole media kit to support this. She's very prolific in the podcast and substack world.

SPEAKER_01 7:20

Yeah, she's a writer. Her writing's pretty good. I I I actually found her by reading her article in Like the Wind magazine. We opened the interview with that story. Uh, but I actually bought the magazine because of her article. I wanted to find out more about this runner with pots.

SPEAKER_04 7:36

I love that she's really um she's made it one of her goals to put it out there, how to run with pots.

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I appreciate it so much.

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I know. Um, I think it's really amazing, and I'm glad that we can share this with our community.

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Absolutely. So without further ado, Christine

Introducing Christine Reed

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Reed.

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Enjoy. Hi,

From Indoorsy Kid To Runner

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Christine. Welcome to Running with Problems.

SPEAKER_03 8:10

Hi, thanks so much for having me. I'm super excited to talk today.

SPEAKER_01 8:14

Yeah, I I I saw one of my friends texted um me and they were like, Oh, there's this article about about this runner with pots in like the win magazine, which I had never heard of the magazine. So I went on and I looked at it and it was paywalled. And then I was like, okay, well, I really so I recently was diagnosed with POTS um just like a couple months ago, been really dealing with a lot of the issues there.

SPEAKER_00 8:37

Yeah, recently.

SPEAKER_01 8:38

Yeah, very recent. I've I've probably had it for around a year and a half in a post-COVID situation, and uh, ran a bunch of ultras last year and then was training for Coca-Dona, and eventually it came to the point where I had to admit that running was not tenable anymore, uh, at least in the current state of my body. And so yeah. So I've been dealing with that for about four months now. So I'm just looking for other experiences out there. So I found so I was texted, it was like, hey, there's this other runner. Like it feels very lonely when you're diagnosed with a new yeah, like it's like you get the syndrome, you don't know what it means, you never heard of it, heal from it. Doctors are like, Well, you know, you don't have heart problems, so hey, you're fine, you're fine. I mean, you can get off the stairs, so what do you what do you what do you need?

SPEAKER_04 9:28

Um, but let's not get ahead of ourselves. I'd love to know a little bit about you, Christine, before we dive into your story with hot. So, where are you from?

SPEAKER_03 9:39

Yeah, um, gosh, I'm a I was a military brat, so I don't really have like a homeland, but I live in Taos, New Mexico now. Oh just for the last year and a half.

SPEAKER_04 9:48

That's like pretty new, but and have you always been an active person?

SPEAKER_03 9:53

Not at all, no. Um, I lovingly refer to my parents as indoors-y people. Um I I was a book reader and an excellent student as a child. Um, was not athletic. I was a cheerleader in high school, um, which is athletic. I don't want people to think that I'm discounting the athletic uh ability of cheerleaders, but that was my only um kind of sport until I was in my mid-20s. Mid-20s. Yeah, that's when I got into hiking.

SPEAKER_04 10:24

So backpacking or hiking was your first love.

SPEAKER_03 10:28

Yes, yes. And my segue to running came after a 650-mile through hike attempt on the Appalachian Trail.

SPEAKER_02 10:36

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 10:38

Yeah. So after hiking, you know, anywhere from six to 12 hours a day for 70 days, I got home and was like, my legs feel like they're going to jump up and run away, like if I don't move. So um, running became sort of a like a way for me to move my legs a little bit every day without having to do something all day long.

SPEAKER_04 11:00

I feel like we skipped a step. What led you from being an indoorsy person to suddenly I'm gonna hike the Appalachian Trail?

SPEAKER_03 11:10

At least half of it. Yeah. Gosh, yeah, it's it's kind of a long story, but I will say I I graduated from college in 2013. And um, it turns out if all you ever did was everything you were told to do as a child, then you graduate from college and you get a job, and suddenly there's no one telling you what to do with your life anymore. And I was sort of standing around going, like, what's next after this? Like, what am I supposed to be doing right now? Um, and so I was feeling really aimless. And I just happened to upon a blog about the AT, and I thought that sounds wild. And even though I'd only hiked maybe five times in my life and thoroughly did not enjoy any of those experiences, I something about it just kind of captured me. And I was like, I think I need to do this. I can't, I mean, I was 23, I was a baby, but I just felt compelled in a way.

unknown 12:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 12:08

And my parents remind me of that book, Wild by Cheryl. Yeah, I mean, I had some dark stuff in my past, and I was definitely looking for like new, new, new self, new life, new ideas

Appalachian Trail Struggle Before Diagnosis

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of what it is to be a person. And um, and my parents hated the idea. So perfect. Bye.

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And how and how did that journey feel?

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Did that inspire you? Um, gosh, when I look back on my two and a half months on the AT, I don't remember being happy at all. I feel like I was I was cold, I was uncomfortable, my body was in absolute revolt, um, and you know, not to like jump ahead, but I was undiagnosed at that time. And so I was not taking care of my body in the way that it requires. And so things were just falling apart, like the wheels were coming off, as they say.

SPEAKER_01 13:03

Um stayed out there like two and a half months.

SPEAKER_03 13:07

Like you just, I definitely got out there and was like, oh shit, like what did I, what did I sign up for here? But of course, I told all these people, and everyone had been like, that's crazy. Like, you'll never, you know, like people expressing doubt is like my greatest fuel. So I was like, I have to do this. Um and and I had spent a year kind of quote unquote preparing for the AT. I didn't I didn't hike in preparation, I didn't do any blackpacking. I prepared by researching and buying things. Oh yes, that's my favorite way. That's how I ran right. You're 100% ready once you've researched and bought things. Exactly. I read about it and then I bought things. Oh my god. Um, and so so when I got out there, like the physicality of it, I was completely unprepared for. Um, but I had spent a year telling everyone I was doing it, and so then of course, like I had to do, I had to do it.

SPEAKER_01 14:05

Do you get better at it in two months?

SPEAKER_03 14:08

I think that was one of the things that was the hardest for me is like watching everybody else get their trail eggs and really like get better, get faster, get stronger, get less pain along the way. And I just didn't, honestly, like my body changed and and my ability to go a little further, like I could go a little further, but I just was not keeping up with the people around me. And people who had started with me and were as slow as I was at when we started, would just eventually leave me behind. And I think that was really mentally difficult. Um because I just wasn't, I didn't feel like I was experiencing the same progress other people were.

unknown 14:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:52

Cause some people like I remember one story where they're like you start out completely unfit, and then by the time you finish the trail, you're doing like 30 mile days.

SPEAKER_03 15:00

Totally. Yeah.

unknown 15:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:02

And then there were tons of people when I started, like, I didn't do a 10-mile day in the first like month. Like I was doing like seven miles, eight miles, and like dying, like I was dragging myself seven or eight miles. It was taking me the entire day. I was, you know, just in so much pain and like very determined to do it. But the, you know, the first time I did like a 12-mile, I was like, I think I have to chop my legs off now. You know, and I remember nights in my tent just like writhing in pain. My legs were so sore. Um, yeah. And it feels like other people who also started with seven and eight mile days eventually were like, okay, bye. Doing 15s, doing 20s, like never saw them again.

SPEAKER_04 15:44

So you return from this trip and you're like, that's it. I'm gonna get fit.

SPEAKER_03 15:50

Sort of, yeah. I came back and I was like, man, I guess I'm not trying hard enough, which is just like kind of a wild thing to think.

SPEAKER_01 15:58

I think that's what everyone thinks, or like at least everyone I know.

SPEAKER_03 16:02

I've heard this a lot from people, especially people who suffered with POTS undiagnosed for a long period of time or like me their entire life. Um, where once I started trying to do things and I I really struggled more than people around me, and then I I was like, I just have to do more. I just have to do more. So I didn't end up getting diagnosed until five years after the AT when I was training for a 50K. And I still kept telling myself I just have to do more. Like I had run a half marathon, I had done three or four other long hikes, like I had just done things that like normal people will never do, and people who are much fitter and much more capable than me without ever doing that kind of thing. And I just thought I just haven't done

Early Training And Constant Overexertion

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enough.

SPEAKER_04 16:45

And what so what did training look like for you in the beginning before you were diagnosed?

SPEAKER_03 16:52

Um, I mean, I did two couch to 5K programs after the AT. I did one immediately afterwards, and then I took a few months off, and then I did a second one. Um, and I will say for people with pots, I think a couch to 5k is a great place to start because it is so regulated and so like you really start running like 20 seconds at a time, which for like most people feels ridiculous. But for people with pots, it's like, no, this is like right at my level.

SPEAKER_01 17:19

Like speaking directly to anybody, you know. Went running this morning and I was running for like two minutes at a time. And I was like, oh my god, hell yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:29

Yeah. I mean, I remember the 22nd, and like let me tell you, my running is like a 12-minute pace. And it's like back then, it was definitely like a 12-minute pace, and I was running that for 20 seconds and like heaving of like I'm gonna die. You know, it was also, I will say, I was training in August in Arkansas. Um, so I was having to go running at like 4:30 in the morning to be even bearable, and it was still awful.

SPEAKER_01 17:54

Is this flat Arkansas or hilly Arkansas?

SPEAKER_03 17:57

Um, you know, I was since I was doing a couch to five K program and running like a quarter mile, um, I was in my dad's neighborhood, so it was a pre-flat.

unknown 18:06

Pre-flat.

SPEAKER_03 18:06

But there are, I mean, there are he's in the Little Rock area, which

What POTS Feels Like While Running

SPEAKER_03 18:10

does have hills. And yeah, I was just sidewalk.

SPEAKER_04 18:13

Describe to us like what this feeling is like, like when you start to feel like you have POTS symptoms.

SPEAKER_03 18:21

Yeah. So um POTS is a form of dysautonomia, which is dysfunction of the autonomic nervous system, which I basically think of as like my computer doesn't know what it's supposed to do when it's supposed to do it. And so it's just always doing the wrong thing, is kind of how I think of it. Um, and so, you know, there's all kinds of different mechanisms at play, but essentially, like any type of exercise, the main symptom is gonna be like super elevated heart rate. And so I try to explain it to people like, you know, when you're sprinting as fast as you possibly can for like 15 seconds, I feel like that no matter what level of exercise I'm doing. It's like the the like running so hard you're choking on your lungs and you can't breathe. Yes is just that's how I feel when I'm jogging.

SPEAKER_01 19:08

You feel it in your lungs, in your throat.

SPEAKER_03 19:10

I have a very yes, a throat feeling. Yeah. What? Yeah. It does get better. That gets better. Um like and when I say it gets better, what I mean is you learn to tolerate it better. It does it feels the same, I think. Um, when my cardiologist, when I got diagnosed, I like I said, I was training for a 50k. Um, and my cardiologist was like, People with pots don't run. And I was like, Well, I do, and I have been, and like, should I not be? And she was like, It's not that you shouldn't be, it's that I don't understand how you are. Because I would show her, I showed her my Garmin data, which is like how I finally decided to go to the cardiologist. Yeah. So that story.

SPEAKER_04 19:53

Let's take a step back. Let's

Getting Diagnosed With Garmin Clues

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not skip ahead. So, what led you to go and get this diagnosis?

SPEAKER_03 20:01

So, yeah, so the couch to five Ks were like 2015 after the AT. Then I took a little break, then I trained for a half marathon. I used a really basic half marathon training program where you're just running. Like it wasn't like weightlifting and all that other stuff. Um, it was just like getting to be able to run to that distance. Um, and then after that, I was like, guess I haven't done enough. And so then I was like, I'm gonna run a 50K. Um what 50K did you choose? I had signed up for the Zion 50K, the vacation races one. It was in April of 2020. So Shocker didn't end up running that race. Devastating, let me tell you. Um, tragic. Um, but I had I had been through winter, was was training in Denver through through the 50K. And my boyfriend at the time um was not a runner before we met, but he's a real gear junkie kind of guy. And when we started dating, he was like, ooh, running watch, cool data. And so he bought a running watch um and was getting into like heart rate data and just like we, you know, just like geeking out on that, which I do not do. And so we were going for like a two-mile run together. Uh I was probably eight weeks into my training program. I was running, you know, four or five hour runs on the weekends. But he was like, I'm gonna go run like two or three miles with you on the Cherry Creek Trail, paved path. We were going like an 1140 pace, and I was breathing like I do, which is harder than a normal person breathes ever. And he was like, Why are you breathing like that? I was like, What are you talking about? Imagine living this way your entire life and being like a self-conscious, like non-athlete person, and then having the person you love turn to you and be like, Why are you breathing like that?

SPEAKER_01 21:46

It's uh just to validate you, like I mean, I've always had higher rates than everyone else around me. I mean, I don't think I've always had pots, or at least I'm not ready to admit that that's always been true. But the like You can train as much or as many hours as an elite athlete and still run half as fast.

SPEAKER_03 22:06

Yes. And look like you're struggling. It's visible. It's really obvious I'm struggling.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

Nobody tells you, like, oh, you shouldn't be breathing that much, or you shouldn't be, or you shouldn't have as that high of a heart rate, or what like everybody's bodies are different. And if you look around and everyone's just putting in the time, and the only stories we talk about are the ones where people succeed. Yeah. And so everything you're fed is, well, if I just work harder, I can do this and I can do it at a faster pace and I can run in the top 10%, right? Or 20%, right? It's just about work. That's all we talk about, right?

SPEAKER_03 22:37

Yeah. Someday it will be as easy for me as I can see that it is easier for everyone around me.

SPEAKER_01 22:43

But then you have yeah, but then he then he makes an asshole statement about like what how hard you're breathing, and all of a sudden you're like, wait, I shouldn't be breathing this much.

SPEAKER_03 22:50

Well, and like I know I breathe loud. That's embarrassing. I am very aware that we like, you know, like in with hiking, with running, like I am very aware that my experience looks different than other people's. But most people have the decency not to point it out. Um they just judge you silently and like whatever.

SPEAKER_00 23:07

Like like like good decent.

SPEAKER_03 23:09

Like they should. But he was concerned, like he, you know, legitimately, and he was like, Why are you breathing so hard? I was like, What are you talking about? He was like, We're not even going that fast. And I was like, Go drop off and well. Like, how dare you? Um, and he was like, What's your heart rate right now? I like looked at my watch, it was like 176, and he was like, Yeah, that's really high. And I was like, You think? And he I was like, What's your heart rate right now? He's like 122. And I was like, But you're like in better shape than me. And he was like, You're literally training for 50k right now. And I was like, Yeah, but like I'm like chubby girl, you know, like just all these stories I have about myself, which is like I'm not in shape. Yeah, I'm a person who's not in shape. That's why I look this way when I'm running. Um, no matter how much exercise I do, right? Like I can run for five hours straight without stopping, but I'm still like not in shape because I'm breathing like this. Um, and so we went home, he showed me heart rate data about where your heart rate should be. And then I went back and looked at my heart rate data on all my runs. And it was just like, yeah, I'm running for five hours with my heart rate between 175 and 180.

SPEAKER_02 24:17

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 24:18

And like when you, yeah, when you were asking, like, describe what it feels like, it's like, what is what do you feel like when your heart rate is at 176?

SPEAKER_04 24:25

It's like I'm sprinting.

SPEAKER_03 24:27

Yeah. Everything in my body is like, you shouldn't be here. Right. So it's like that. I mean, the the physical body experience of that heart rate, I think, is probably pretty close to the same. And it's like you're you feel like a little bit panicky and you're like breathing as hard and as fast as you can, and it feels like I can't do this for very long.

SPEAKER_01 24:46

Right. The only thing that I would say is different about pots high heart rate versus say an earned high heart rate, um, is that it doesn't come along with the rest of the body feeling strained. It like like I my my heart goes first and then my breathing starts to come, but like I don't feel the muscles straining as much. Maybe I haven't with pots. Yeah, with pots.

SPEAKER_03 25:09

Oh, because your muscles aren't working. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_01 25:11

Exactly.

unknown 25:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:12

Like normally in order to make my heart go into anaerobic, like I'm trying to run as fast of a 50k, or sorry, not 50k, 5k as I can, right? And in order to get there, like everything in my body is working as hard as it can. And my heart definitely gets there and it it all feels like my entire body is working. Whereas with pots, it feels like the first thing is just my heart is just insanely high, and eventually my breathing catches up, and that's it. Um, and then I feel like there's something wrong.

SPEAKER_03 25:41

That's very true. And I will say, when I was younger and we would run in school and stuff, I remember people being like, My legs hurt, my legs are sore, like that was hard, my legs. And I'm like, I've never felt my legs.

SPEAKER_01 25:55

Because you never gave them enough nutrients.

SPEAKER_03 25:57

Because I actually there's no way for me to physically have pushed myself hard enough for my legs to feel something because I was always going to stop sooner than that.

SPEAKER_02 26:05

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:06

Right. Like my lungs and my my lungs and my heart have always been my limiting factor. And it wasn't until probably until I was running like 50k distance where I was like, oh, I understand, but like having legs feels like now. Like I've now experienced that, but it took me until I was like almost 30 to to experience that.

SPEAKER_04 26:24

Okay. So then you start this journey to figure out what's going on. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:28

Where did you start the medical system?

SPEAKER_03 26:31

So my partner at the time said, I think you should go have that looked at. Um, and that was around March. It was February, March of 2020. So it was like right before the pandemic started. So I said, I had read this book about somebody who had a hole in their heart and had to have heart surgery or something. And I was like, what if I have a hole in my heart and they want me to have surgery? Like, I don't want to do that until after I get to run this race because I've already done all this training. What if I had to have heart surgery? You can't take this race away.

SPEAKER_01 27:07

I had the same thoughts.

SPEAKER_03 27:09

It was gonna be my first race, and I was like, I've trained, I literally trained for eight months. And because I was still undiagnosed that whole time, training took everything I had. Like every week I would do my long run, and then I was completely useless for like 48 hours.

SPEAKER_01 27:25

Like so exhausted from it. Because your your hurry's been running at anaerobic levels.

SPEAKER_03 27:29

Yeah. So I was I sacrificed a lot to be ready for this race. And so I said, I'm not going until after the race. I'm not going to the doctor. If whatever it is was going to kill me because of me doing this race, it would have happened already because I've trained like all this. Like I was, I very much talked to myself, like, I'm not doing that until after. So I waited and then the race got canceled because of COVID. And then it was COVID. And then I was like, I'm not going to a doctor right now. Like, I don't need to be in a doctor's office. And also, like, partly because I don't want to go be exposed to things and partly because I don't need to be taking up a doctor's time when there's all this going on.

SPEAKER_00 28:02

You wasn't the right move. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:05

Yeah. So I was like, there's no need. I'll also why I'm gonna have a heart surgery. I was like so sure I was gonna need heart surgery. Um, so I waited until August, August of 2020. I went to a cardiologist. Luckily, I had decent um insurance access where I could just go to a cardiologist and I didn't have to go through like 20 other appointments first. So I went to a cardiologist. Um the nurse for the cardiologist took my intake survey, took my information, took my heart rate, blah, blah, blah, talked to me a bunch, left. And then she came back with the cardiologist, and she just the the nurse had this like look on her face. Um, like she was like so excited to see what the cardiologist was gonna tell me. And then we went through all the stuff again, and the cardiologist said, You have thoughts. And she handed me a pamphlet, and the nurse said, Yes, because she guessed that that's what it was. Um, and I will say, like, compared to other people's diagnosis journeys, that part of it was very easy. However, I was 30 years old, I've been this way my whole life. So there were a hundred doctors' appointments before that where I could have gotten this figured out. And I was going to the doctor for several variations of different symptoms that had to do with POTS and never got diagnosed until I went in with this is my heart rate data, these are my symptoms. Basically, I like read them the list of POTS symptoms, which I had not researched, I did not know.

SPEAKER_01 29:34

Did you come in with that Garmin data?

SPEAKER_03 29:36

I did. I did the same thing. I said, I said, here's my watch data. Um, and I said, My boyfriend said, This is not normal. You know, so I had, you know, I had all that.

SPEAKER_01 29:48

When a man says it, I mean you gotta give a diagnosis.

SPEAKER_03 29:51

He knew stuff. Um, yeah, I was well, you know, you know, when you you're a woman and you go to the doctor and you're like, let me let me remind you that there's a man who cares about my health so that you make sure to give a shit.

SPEAKER_01 30:03

It's unfortunately true.

SPEAKER_03 30:06

So um, yeah, so my diagnosis in that framework was quite direct. Um, and the pamphlet she handed, she handed me a trifold pamphlet, and it was like, here's the symptoms. Um, the last symptom on the list was exercise intolerance.

SPEAKER_00 30:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:21

And I just like laughed because it was, you know, all of the symptoms. I was like, uh excessive sweating, heart rate, breathing, dizzy spells, like, you know, just all of the things. And I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:38

Lack of altitude adaptation.

SPEAKER_03 30:40

Poor temperature regulation is a huge one.

SPEAKER_01 30:42

Um lightheadedness when exercising, uh, vision symptoms, which is like uh after images that don't go away, or blurried vision, blurred vision.

SPEAKER_03 30:53

Migraines, uh, digestive issues. Oh. Um, I mean, it's really everything. Like your autonomic nervous system controls everything. And the crazy thing about POTS specifically is that it's almost never diagnosed alone. It always like people always get it. Either the this post-viral load thing is pretty common, but it's also super common with a lot of chronic illnesses, a lot of autoimmune stuff. Um, I have scoliosis, I have endometriosis. Like I've had all these other health issues. I was born with gastrosches. Um what is that? It's when the tissue of the stomach doesn't like stretch and expand correctly, and so it rips open. So like my stomach was ripped open and all my intestines were hanging out when I was born. And so they just like shoved everything back again. Um, it's not as uncommon as you would think about one in 5,000 babies has this. Um, sometimes it's pretty minor, but um so there's a you know, it's also pretty common to get pots after having surgery, like waking up from anesthesia. And you had surgery as a baby. The day I was born.

SPEAKER_02 32:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:02

Um, so there's just there's all these things that are like, oh, I wonder if I was born this way, or if it happened just when I was so young that I don't remember a time before that. Um but yeah, the just yeah, she handed me the sheep.

SPEAKER_01 32:18

I mean, and how much does that pamphlet

Relief And Grief After The Name

SPEAKER_01 32:20

help?

SPEAKER_03 32:21

I mean, it did, honestly. It changed my life. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:24

Did it it just like what is your feeling after you get validation, right? Like you have something. Like, what is does that feel good?

SPEAKER_03 32:32

Um, yeah, I mean, in the office I laughed because I was just like, oh my, like, this is just explains everything that I've been in my entire life. Like, I'm reading this pamphlet, like, yes, yes, yes. Like, why did anyone tell me this? Um, you know, and then I went out to my car and I cried. Um, because I think that there's a really quite a large grief that comes with knowing that like no amount of work is ever gonna fix this. Like, yeah, don't cry, John, don't cry on the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 33:02

Yeah, no, I mean it's like it's like validating because you don't have to feel like you have an answer, you have like a name for it. Before it's just like this mythical thing that exists within you that you have no idea, you don't really know understand why you're good enough anymore, like why you can't do the things you used to do. Then then at the same time, you also understand that it's not something that you could fix, at least not easily, at least not simply, you know, you can mitigate, you can maybe manage.

SPEAKER_03 33:33

And there was, you know, I had this vision after five years of hiking and running of the person that I was someday going to be. Right? There's like the what you're working towards kind of thing, and I just realized like that person doesn't exist and they never will. And unfortunately, the point that I was at, as you might imagine, a person who's training to run a 50k, probably in the best shape they're gonna be to a certain degree. Like that, I mean, for my body, I was in remarkably good shape. And to like reconcile that understanding with like where I thought I was going was a journey. It took a couple years. But I will say the knowledge and the information that is available to me now that I do have a name for it, like has allowed me to progress further than I had at that point because managing your symptoms and managing your body and taking care of your body, I think like being in partnership with your body does allow for more availability of progress than just running it into the ground.

SPEAKER_04 34:43

I'd love to hear about your journey with learning how to take care of your body now that you knew what was going on where you had more information at your fingertips.

SPEAKER_03 34:53

Yeah. Yeah. I think

Salt Hydration Compression And Daily Management

SPEAKER_03 34:55

you know, the recommendations that they make for people with pots are things like wear compression socks, which ew I hate.

SPEAKER_01 35:01

Who wears compression socks? Fucking hybrid athletes?

SPEAKER_03 35:04

They're terrible. Um, and I really wanted to pretend for a long time, like they didn't, that didn't help. Um, but if I do put them on post-run, um, or if I'm backpacking, I try to sleep in them. Um, but I cannot run with them on because they it constricts my ability to move and it's so uncomfortable. I hate them. Um, but yeah, so the recommendations are like compression socks, electrolytes, hydration. They talk about sleep hygiene. There's like food allergy possibilities that come along with that. Um, and it's like no alcohol, no caffeine. Um just a lot of things that people are like, what? Like, luckily, I intuitively intuitively over the years before getting diagnosed, I had already given up alcohol and I never had caffeine because it makes me feel so crazy. Um, and it was one of those things like this just doesn't work for me. And then I found out why later, right? Um, they recommended that I eat 6,000 milligrams of salt a day, um, which I love the absolute arbitrary numbers that they they're like, here's a number, and I'm like, okay, like I'm 5'11, I weigh 170 pounds. Like, is that factored into this? I'm a woman, does that matter? Like, I'm an athlete, does that matter? You just give me a random number. Um, so just for kicks, I went home and I measured 6,000 milligrams of salt into a bowl to see how much it was. A revolting amount. There's a lot of salt. Disgusting. Um, and I I thought, you know, I think I'm pretty intuitive with my salt. Like I'm a person who sometimes things don't taste salty. I dump more salt on, good, great. Um, and I think that my body brain receptor, whatever, kind of can tell how much salt I need. And so when I need more salt, it makes things taste less salty. And so then I dump more. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_04 37:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:06

Do you feel like you have an intuition about that, John?

SPEAKER_01 37:09

I mean, I love always loved salt. Okay. So, like when I got this diagnosis, you know what I did? I just added like two, I added two element packets a day in addition to already overeating salt. I was like, here's two more grams on top of what's probably already four or five grams a day. Yeah, I would I'll like dry um like dry rub a steak with like all the salt, and then I won't even take it off before I grill it. Just eat a ton of salt.

SPEAKER_03 37:40

Amazing.

SPEAKER_01 37:41

But I know I've always been a salty sweater, so I've always had the taste for it, I guess. Bodies always needed it.

SPEAKER_03 37:48

Yeah. Yeah. And I don't think I was like a super heavy salt eater before. Um, and I will say when I was on the AT, like way back, I was one of those people who was like, electrolytes, I'm not an athlete. I don't need that. And that is one of the reasons I was sick on the AT. Yeah, really dehydrated. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:08

I mean, even if you're not, even if you don't have pots, you kind of need electrolytes.

SPEAKER_03 38:12

Yes, yes. And I was just so new to like that world that it just seemed like unnecessary to me. I was like, I don't really know what this whole electrolyte business is, but like I'm sure I don't need that. Um, and so now, yeah, now I do like an electrolyte drink every day. And then I also chew saltick tablets, um, the chewable ones, which I like those. Love, cannot recommend those enough. Um, that was also something I remember. Almost all of them. Yeah, yeah. They have a lot of good ones, like watermelon's great. They have a peach that's really good. Um, lemon lemon. Do you know they have a second brand called Vitassium for people with pots?

SPEAKER_01 38:54

Do they? And does it like actually contain real amounts of salt, not just like it's hundreds of double the tablet? It's double the tablets. Okay, that's better. Maybe I'll check that out.

SPEAKER_03 39:03

Yeah, and they do like a discount, I think, for don't quote me on that, but I think they I think they have a discount code for people with dysautonomia specifically. Oh, sweet. Um, yeah, that's and that's a funny thing. It's something that I discovered not long before getting diagnosed when I was doing my training for the 50K. I actually ran, I ran 18 miles on a like sidewalk uh river path in Arizona um in January, and I felt pretty decent while I was doing it. And I got in my car and I drove to Sprouts and I was like, I'm gonna get a bubbly water, like gonna treat myself. I got out of the car, walked into the store, and then almost threw up on the floor in the middle of sprouts, and then I was like, I'm gonna pass out, I'm woozy, I'm dizzy, just having a spell in the sprouts. Um, and so I left there, went to the running store in Phoenix, and I was like, I need help. Like, this is what happened. And they were like, Did you take any electrolytes? And I was like, No, and they were like, here's these salt pills, chew those. And I started using them and I was like, This is amazing. Like, do you guys know about this salt? So I had just gotten on the salt chewable train right before getting diagnosed, and then I was like, sweet, perfect. So now I know, like, I know when I start to feel a certain way and I like need those things. But I feel like the biggest, the biggest management, I'm like, gosh, I've just gone way off track. Come back to what we're talking about.

SPEAKER_01 40:28

We're doing great here.

SPEAKER_03 40:29

Yeah. Um, the things that I do to like manage manage symptoms are really, it has a lot to do with like learning my body, which took a couple of years, but it was like knowing when I need water, knowing when I need salt, um, doing the little things like the compression stockings after after exercise or after when I'm backpacking.

Feet Up Recovery And Racing With POTS

SPEAKER_03 40:50

Um I also have pretty recently started being really religious about putting my feet up a wall um after exercise. So when I get back to my car from trail running, I will uh I keep a blanket in the back of my car and I like lay it in the parking lot and then I lay with my feet up on the deck of the bumper for like five minutes. Um, and when I'm doing longer distances, like I ran a 25-mile trail race last fall. And at two of the aid stations mid-race, I laid down with my feet up for three minutes at a time.

SPEAKER_01 41:21

Noticeably improved symptoms for period after that?

SPEAKER_03 41:25

I have really bad neuropathy pain in my feet if I'm on my feet too long. And I think it's from all of the blood going down and like the I don't know if it's like a swelling issue or what, but do you get that like tingly, painful bottoms of your feet?

SPEAKER_01 41:40

Tingly, tingly. I mean No, I wouldn't say I get I mean, I wouldn't say I get tingly uh bottoms of my feet. I do get a lot of feet swelling. Yeah, I will typically oversize my shoes for ultras, and I've just always done that. And I will grow by at least a size um within the first around 20 miles of a race. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 42:03

Yeah, it helps a lot for me with the pain. Um, and I would be curious to know when you get back up to doing longer distances now with dealing with the pots, if that pain is something you experience.

SPEAKER_01 42:15

But I mean, I've always had foot pain, but I mean it's ultra.

SPEAKER_03 42:19

Sure, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:20

How much do I just group into oh the everyone feels this?

SPEAKER_03 42:23

We call it hamburger meat feet. Um the no, the putting my feet up does help and it's like worth it in terms of pacing. Um, for me to stop for three to five minutes. I feel like it then I'm better to able to maintain my pace. Like I may I make up the time later.

SPEAKER_00 42:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:41

If I stop. Um, people give you crazy looks though, stopping like eight miles into her face. Um so yeah, things like that. And then like clothes, you know, as I I'll be curious to hear about your experience with this, but like as a woman, um, a lot of exercise clothes and things are like tight spandex, um, they're kind of compression-y anyway. Um, and I before getting diagnosed, like I wear Fabletics leggings, um, which are pretty compression-y. And there's just certain days where I'm like, I need that compression on. And it's like a very instinctual thing where I hadn't really like noticed that. And then there's also days where I'm like, literally, I don't want anything touching me. Like, I want to be wearing the loosest moo moo that I can find. And I feel like that's also like an instinctual, like, it's just something that I was just doing before getting diagnosed that now I can do with more intention, or I can like recognize why

Food Inflammation And Gut Symptoms

SPEAKER_03 43:40

I might be feeling that way.

SPEAKER_04 43:41

Um what else in your diet? Has anything else in your diet changed or supplements?

SPEAKER_03 43:47

Um, I had given up dairy in my early 20s, um, like lactose intolerant kind of thing. And then uh I don't do gluten anymore. Gluten is an inflammatory. Food, um, inflammation, not good for the nervous system. So that's like the main thing I avoid. And then I do try to like minimize other inflammatory foods. I can't really do any oil. Um I know people think this is like a conspiracy thing, but like the seed oil thing. Um I I'm I'm very serious. Like, I can eat olive oil, avocado oil, coconut oil. Anything else will give me gall butter pain. Well, those are good oils to stick to. Yeah, those are yeah. So, and but people have this whole like seed oils are like this big discussion of whether seed oils are things.

SPEAKER_04 44:37

People are making apps to discover if restaurants in your area use seed oil or not, you know. Trust me, they do.

SPEAKER_01 44:44

I mean, most fad diets are just to avoid uh processed foods, but I do believe that some people actually benefit from them.

SPEAKER_03 44:52

Yeah. And I do, you know, I had the less processed foods. We all would benefit from less processed foods. Um yeah, so you know, and I'm like, is the gallbladder thing also related to POTS? Because I have a good friend who has POTS and mass mass cell activation syndrome, which is commonly co-diagnosed. And she had her gallbladder out when she was 14. Oh wow. Um, which is wild. Yeah. And I've had gallbladder pain at least that long. Like I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 45:19

You don't even know where that's located. Where where is your how what tell me about gallbladder pain? Where is it located?

SPEAKER_03 45:26

Your gallbladder is under your ribs on the right hand side, kind of like right where your ribs meet your soft gushy parts. Um, and then commonly gallbladder pain is there localized, but also referred to your right shoulder.

SPEAKER_04 45:40

And is it sharp or is it like adult sharp?

SPEAKER_03 45:43

Like a stabbing. It's very painful. Um, and I can remember having such pain that I like couldn't stand up straight as a teenager. Um and then when I stopped eating fried foods, it got better. And now it's like pretty rare. It's definitely gallbladder.

SPEAKER_04 45:57

I've had two friends and a sister with gallbladders that had to be removed, and it was very much related to when they would eat fried foods.

SPEAKER_03 46:06

Yep. So I gave up fried foods a long, long time ago. Um, and now it's just like if I eat something that's like weirdly processed, sometimes I'll get pain there.

SPEAKER_01 46:16

I find you're I'm learning. There's some things I'm learning from you, which is very great, and we're doing it live. Uh, but I'm learning like, okay, so I've always had like a lot of stomach like GERD or like acid reflux, like a lot of stomach just discomfort on a pretty regular basis. And some days it's very bad, and like to the point where I'm like burping so much I can't run, at least not well. Uh because you're already struggling to breathe. Yeah, just because oh my gosh, so so much gas is coming up. But I it's interesting to learn, okay, so there could be a lot more that's related in my body to this lack of you know good bud blood flow, right? It's not just I can't run, it could be affecting other systems in my body that I've always just dealt with. And it's like, okay, that's just always been my body. It's how I how it's always been.

SPEAKER_03 47:10

Do you one of the other things that's commonly co-diagnosed that is also like part of autonomic nervous system is um gastroparesis, which is paralysis of the gastrointestinal system. Um, because when you think about all the things your brain, your your body controls without you thinking about it, digestion is one of those things. And digestion is a system of like muscular movements and like your intestines are like boop boop boop, like making stuff move through, and that's something it's automatically doing. Um, and so if your computer is not directing it to do that correctly, like some people have it to the point where like their intestines aren't doing anything, and they have to like either be on a feeding tube or like have, I don't know, there's different therapies. It's not but it's something I've wondered if I have like a very mild version of because I feel like my digestion is very slow. Um, and if I eat meat or dairy, like basically I went vegan for a long time, and that was one of the first things that I did before being diagnosed that I was like, wow, this really changed my quality of life because animal products slow down your digestion.

SPEAKER_01 48:17

Right, they take longer to decompose to process.

SPEAKER_03 48:21

So, and for for normal people with normal digestion, that's not necessarily a problematic thing. Um, but if your digestion's slow, then it like now it's really slow. Um, and so when I quit eating animal products, I was like, oh my gosh, does this sound like normal people poop every day? Like what? Like that kind of, you know, just like, oh, this is like a totally different experience of my body. Um, and now I'm not I'm not vegan anymore, but I still eat very minimal animal products, and it's definitely one of those things that when I do, I can tell my digestion has slowed. Um so yeah, if you have digestive issues, there could definitely be links there.

SPEAKER_01 48:58

Prior to when I think I developed POTS, which would be January last year, I I could eat like a 3,000 calorie diet pretty regularly to support, you know, 20 hours a week of training. Yeah. And after I had that COVID and I had the significant slowdown that associated with the post-COVID time, I found it very difficult to continue eating at that level. I would just feel full all day. Like as if I, you know, my breakfast just wasn't moving through my body. I would get to lunch and I'd be like, I just don't feel like eating much. I would get to dinner and be like not very hungry. And I'd end up eating about half of what I used to, despite the same training level.

SPEAKER_03 49:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:43

And I I think that kind of contributed to everything getting worse.

SPEAKER_03 49:47

Possibly. Yeah. I do feel like also if I'm not active, if my if I don't get my heart rate up every day, my digestion also slows way down. So I like there's like processing signals that happen from exercise that I think are like really critical from my experience at least. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:04

Well,

Flares Brain Fog And Working Life

SPEAKER_01 50:05

let's uh let's talk about you know, what inspired you to, you know, you're doing all this pot, you're you're you're figuring out to how to deal with it, right? How to manage it. But like what inspired you to continue running to to start going on, you know, keep going on these long adventures? I mean, I read about in the magazine you wrote about doing the Taos Traverse, which is this giant traverse of 13ers around Taos. So, you know, what inspired you to keep running? You just got this like signal like, hey, you shouldn't be running. You know, why did you continue?

SPEAKER_03 50:39

I mean, I definitely I did ask my cardiologist, is it safe for me to do this? And she said, if you can tolerate it, you can do whatever you want. Which, thank you to her, lady whose name I do not remember. Because the number of POTS patients I have spoken to who have reached out to me on social media and said, like, how do you do what you're doing? Also, my doctor told me not to. Um, is crazy because I haven't heard a single person with POTS say, I exercised and my heart exploded and I died. Like, I haven't heard of that. And so it's like, I don't know why doctors would recommend to people that they not do something if they are able to and want to. And honestly, like my quality of life is so much better because I do the things that I do, even though I do like I gosh, sometimes feel like I'm just like in a cycle of like being sick and then getting better and being sick and getting better and having to start over over and over. And it's exhausting, it's emotionally exhausting. Um, but still, I would say my baseline experience of being in this body and my baseline mental health and all of those things is on average better because I do the things that I do. And I think even though it sucks when I'm going through a flare and I have to like stop or slow down or do, you know, all the things.

SPEAKER_04 51:59

Um a flair is what you call flair like when you're in the moment, in the movement, and you feel like the symptoms come on.

SPEAKER_03 52:08

No, that's just existing. Um a flare. A flair would be when um my my normal day-to-day gets worse. So sometimes I mean anytime I run, it feels like I described earlier, but like when sometimes it'll be like worse, and then like just functioning on a day-to-day basis gets really hard. And so in 2023, I was mo mostly bedridden for about two months. Um just randomly. Like, I don't know. I had gotten like fatigue. Fatigue, like fatigue is definitely part of it. Um, it almost feels like fatigue is like not enough of a word to like describe what it is when you can't get out of bed, or when getting out of bed and feeding yourself is like so much that you have to then go back and get back in bed. Um and yeah, that's and it was like two months where it was like, I can't, I can't run, I can't barely grocery shop, like I'm I'm just doing the absolute bare minimum to like get day to day. Um and then I kept thinking, I think I feel a little bit better. And so then I would try to go run or try to go do something, and it'd be like, no, like I would run half a mile and be like, I have to go get back in bed now. And then it would be like three, four days, and then I'd be like, okay, maybe I can do something. And so it was just this cycle. And I think it's really easy when you get a diagnosis, especially one like this, that kind of says like you shouldn't be able to do these things, to think like, I guess I shouldn't do those things, and then to stop trying. Um, but I think you can only do something if you do it.

SPEAKER_02 53:59

So I mean the body responds to stress, right?

SPEAKER_03 54:03

It does. It's yeah, and it's like, does it does it does it respond to stress by getting stronger, or does it respond to stress by being stressed? Um, and I feel like with pots, it's like both, and you never know which one you're gonna get, kind of thing. It's a little bit of a gamble. Interesting description, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:23

Like some days you get the I feel good after a run, and some days you don't.

SPEAKER_03 54:29

Yeah. And some days you run and then you progress, and the next day you run a little longer, or the next week you run a little longer, and some days you run, and then the body says, I'm going to sleep now for two weeks. Um, and it is it really is a gamble. And I think um the emotional experience of that and the mental experience of that can be really exhausting. And especially for people who have full-time jobs or they have responsibilities, they have kids, they have people looking at them to do things. Like, I'm really fortunate in that I really make my own schedule mostly. Um, and so if I burn myself out and make myself sick, like I can lay in bed for a day. I mean, gosh, not right now. I'm not in a season for that, but in the course of in the course of the last five years, there's been a lot of times where it's like, I'm kind of sick right now, so I'm gonna like work from bed or, you know, take a break. Um and it it can it can be really hard if you don't have that option to want to push yourself physically for recreation or even for your health when there's a chance that could make you not be able to go to work tomorrow or do the thing that you need to do. Um, and so I can understand, like I honestly I've been working two days a week, um, like a day job in Taos since I moved here in January of 2025. And then just a couple months ago, I picked up a third day a week, and I have really been feeling like I don't understand how people work full-time because to balance those three days a week, and to be fair, I do also work, I have a business, and so I work that um other hours. So I'm definitely working more than 40 hours a week, but I don't have to show up somewhere 40 hours a week and have people kind of like breathing down my neck, making sure I do things. Uh, and I don't, I don't think with my body and the amount of time and effort I put into taking care of my body that I could also work full-time and like do that justice. And the thing that the thing that would suffer would be my body, right? And I think for a lot of people that is the choice they have to make, right? Like they're like, I have to work 40 hours a week because I have bills and kids and responsibilities and debt and all the other stuff. And so my body just gonna be what it is.

SPEAKER_01 56:42

I definitely felt that over the last year of like runs in the morning not providing a boost to the day, not making it better me feel better. I would come home, I would not have that same endorphin rush, I would uh feel a little bit of depression, you know, the emotional downturn of like knowing that that was harder than it should have been, or but then also this physical weight of my heart rate being so high for so long that the day, you know, my my performance at work or my my engagement at work would suffer, but I still you know did it and kept going. And it I don't know, it wears on you because running is I got into the sport because it it made me feel better.

SPEAKER_03 57:29

Right. Do you experience brain fog? Yeah, yeah. That one's a hard one for me. With like my, you know, my work that I do for myself that I choose to do is writing. And if I run, it's hard for me to write. Like I do often feel I have to choose between running and writing.

SPEAKER_01 57:48

Well, that's a hard decision. Especially when some of your writing is about running.

SPEAKER_04 57:54

And I'd love to

Writing Publicly And Long COVID Research

SPEAKER_04 57:55

hear a little bit more about your writing. You've made this decision to be very public about your pots and what you're going through. And one of the ways that you get it out there is through your writing. Why is that important to you?

SPEAKER_03 58:09

Yeah, I think I actually didn't, I wasn't really public about it for the first couple of years because, like I said, like it was quite a journey for me to kind of come to terms and to figure out how to take care of myself. And I just didn't feel like I wanted chronic illness to be the first thing that people knew about me. Um, and I also, you know, there's a lot of spaces online available for people with chronic illness to find community and to find each other. And there are a lot of people creating content where chronic illness is very much like the identity that they are putting forward. And I think I just didn't want to see myself as a sick person. Um, I felt like identifying with it too much would make it too big to me, where I was really trying to like overcome in some ways and like be more than that. Um but I also think that chronic illness is not something you overcome, it is something you live with forever. And it's not it's not like like we were talking about, it's not like someday I'm gonna be better. Like I'm not gonna be better. So it is, it is a part of my identity. It's something I deal with every single day. It's something that affects every single thing I do. Um, and so once I came to a better place within myself about what that means, um, and felt like a bit more prepared to talk about it, I did start to put that out there a little bit. Um, and I think right now we are at an interesting moment in time for people with POTS because suddenly there's a lot of research being done about it because people are getting it from COVID. Yes, right. Like there was a huge wave of people suddenly getting sick with this. And so now there's more interest in doing research because it's affecting more people. And it's making a lot of people not able to work, which means suddenly that uh there's value economically in us researching this so we can get those people back to work. Um capitalism. Yay. So I think, you know, but I do think it's interesting, and I think I think it's great that we are finally doing research and giving a shit about this, especially because it's also something that's mostly affecting women statistically. Um, and so that also made it something that was not very researched because we don't care about women's health in this country.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:23

At least we're from research.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:25

Nope. So um, so yeah, I think it's I think it's really unfortunate that a lot of people are suddenly getting sick. I think for people like me who've been this way forever, it's a great opportunity for new information to come out and for like things to to be happening there. Um but yeah, sorry we got there this way.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:44

That's okay. How about that touse traverse?

Taos Traverse And Ridgeline Survival

SPEAKER_01 1:00:48

What made you want to run that?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:49

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:52

Let's talk about running on this running podcast.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:55

Sweet. Um, yeah, so I got pretty interested in the fastest known time world um over the course of the last probably five years, um, from like meeting other athletes, and I crewed some people's attempts on different things and um really got to see it up close and was like, this is pretty cool. And I think um I'm gonna like name drop a little bit here, but I uh I crewed Tara Dower on her Colorado Trail um attempt in 2022.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:29

Were you legally obligated to wear speed glitter when you crewed her?

SPEAKER_03 1:01:34

You know, this was pre-glitter?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:36

Pre-glitter, Tara Dower?

SPEAKER_03 1:01:38

Tara was not glittered on the Colorado Trail. This was pre pre that. Um, but yeah, I just remember her coming in for pit stops and like plopping in the chair and us taking her shoes and socks off and like doctoring her feet and someone shoving food in her mouth and doing all the things and getting the shoes back on. And just immediately as soon as the shoes were back on, she was like, gotta go, got up and left. And I was just like, Man, you would have to peel me out of this chair. Somebody's entire job would have to be telling me to get the out of this chair and go if I was doing that. And I think there was something about seeing somebody who was like clearly, I mean, her feet were so bad on that attempt because she had not sized up her shoes. And we ended up getting her bigger shoes, but it was after her feet were already quite it was gnarly. Like we were taping, we were taping ruptured things up so she could just go. Can talk about that in more detail somewhere else. Um, but there, I mean, like when I looked at her feet and I was like, this girl is just about to get up and keep going. Um, there was something about that that I was like, wow, like I've never seen someone suffer in such a way and like be so determined to keep going. And I think, and like without prompting, like she was just like, I'm just going to keep going.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:03

Like it was internally motivated.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:05

Yeah. Yeah, very I was just so impressed by that.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:10

Yeah. And I think something about that just kind of it stuck with me a little bit. And I think over the course of the next year or two after that, I thought, like, there's a lot of fastest known time records that don't have women's times on them. And somebody wouldn't have to be as fast as Tara Dower to set a time on these on these trails. And the more I thought about it, the more I thought, like, man, I'm suffering all the time.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:43

I wonder if I can have that motivation. Is that like a determination?

SPEAKER_03 1:03:48

I think like as far as like people who are pretty good at suffering, I think someone whose body is like always fighting them just to function. It's like, I know what it's like to like be uncomfortable and just like do the things I have to do every day. And so I think I just there was something about it that was curious to me. And I was like, I wonder if I could do that. So I got into um fastest known times and and the culture of it and the experience of it. And I I set a couple of records on trails in Arkansas um in 2024 because those are trails nobody's heard of and women haven't done. Um, and my dad lives there, and so I was like, I'm gonna go visit him and do this. Um, and so I had a couple year span where I was like working on a few things out there. And then when I moved to Taos, I was just like, I'm just gonna get on the website and like see what's around, um, if there's any routes that women haven't done. And the Tause Traverse popped up, which is right in my backyard. And it is a 32-mile almost loop that goes over four peaks. Um, three of them are 12,000 plus, and then Wheeler is 13, is over 13. Um, and I looked at the route and I was like, 32. I've done 32 miles in a day. I could do that. It has like 11,000 feet of gain. I was like, I see. You know, there was things about it that were gonna be new for me, which was like being at altitude for such a long time because you're really only coming down from the peaks and going back up.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:14

Especially with pots, right? Like altitude adaptation.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:17

Yeah. And I don't necessarily, I haven't really had much problem with altitude sickness, but altitude slows me down like so much. Like I feel like I'm crawling above 12,000 feet. So I was like, that'll be a challenge for sure. Um, and yeah, the distance, I was like, I've done this distance, but I haven't done this distance with this much gain and at this altitude. So there were things about it that would be new for me. Um, but I was like, I mean, I could do it in 24 hours and still like there's no women's time. I could do it in any amount of time and just put it on the thing. So I thought this would be a cool thing to do. And I reached out to um some people in the local running group here, the guy who established. The route is local and hangs out in the running group. And so I got his number from somebody and I sent him a message and was like, hey, I'm like looking at doing this. And he sent me some beta, basically, just like, you know, turn right here, like follow the ridge line, etc. Um, he did not tell me it's like class three and class four scrambling for like miles, miles of class four scrambling.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:23

Is it route finding? Is it is it or is it obvious?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:26

It's, you know, everybody just said uh if in doubt, stay high. Like that, just stay at the top.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:33

Stay on the ridge. Because if you get off, like it gets tricky, it gets loose, that sort of thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:37

It's really loose, it's really steep. Um, and I just I just did not realize what I was getting myself into. So I broke I broke the route into four segments and I worked backwards. So from the end of the route, I did like the last section first and then the next section middle, and then the first because I knew the first section was going to be the hardest. That's going to be.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:57

These are scouting missions?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:58

Yes, I went on four scouting missions. So I had done the first three. The last section was a little bit trickier than I expected, or like the first section I scouted. I was like, oh, that was harder than I thought. And then the second one easy, third one easy. Um, and then the fourth one is like a 5,000-foot climb, and then you summit Vallasito, and then you take the ridgeline from Vecito to Wheeler, and it's like four to five miles of ridgeline. And I thought the 5,000 foot climb was gonna be the hard part. And I started at 5 a.m., made it up the climb in like three hours, and I was like crushing it. I'm having the best day ever. Like I was feeling good, going like a reasonable pace, get out to the top. Um, I'm like, cool, take a 10-minute break. And then I'm like, gonna cruise this ridgeline. That'll be easy. And then I get out there and I was like, this is the absolute scariest thing I've ever done. Um, being up on the top of the ridgeline, I mean, the ridgeline is narrow and it is really steep down both sides, and you're looking down into like a bowl of scree a thousand plus feet below you, thinking I would be lucky if I slid down into that. And this is probably not what that's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:11

This is not when you want uh any lightheadedness to hit.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:16

Well, and I had been I had been doing a really good job managing my body on the uphill, hydrating, snacks, etc. Um, as soon as I got up on that ridgeline, I didn't want to stop because I was scared and I'm holding on for my life, and there's nowhere to take breaks. Um, and so then I wasn't drinking, I wasn't eating. Um, it was four miles each one over an hour because that's how technical the movement was for me. Like holding on with both hands, moving my feet. I mean, there was a point where my feet were on like a one-inch ledge, and I was like towing across a one-inch ledge with my heels hanging off, and I slammed my knee into a rock because I was looking so hard at my feet. I did not see the rock where my knee was that I almost knocked myself off. And the whole time, I mean, I had my Garmin inreach with me only because it was my last scouting mission before I was gonna go on the full attempt when I would need to record. And so I was testing my inreach to make sure that it was recording properly. Otherwise, I wouldn't have had it with me. I don't normally carry it. And I have never thought so seriously about pushing the SOS button. But the calculus in my mind was oh, there was also a storm threatening the whole time. So that was the other thing. It's like I'm at elevation, I'm on a ridgeline, there's absolutely nowhere to get off or hide. Um, the weather is doing like a high-altitude mountain thing, um, and where it was like threatening, but it was like, is it gonna happen? Is it gonna rain? I'm looking at these rocks, going, if these rocks were wet, there's no way I could be doing what I'm doing right now. Um, if a storm came, there's no way for me to get off the ridgeline. Like I'm up high and there's no way down, there's nowhere to take cover. There's also nowhere for rescue to come. So it's like, what do I push this button? They're not gonna be able to do anything. They'd have to come the same way I came to get responsible.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:03

And it might take them hours.

unknown 1:10:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:05

No, it would definitely take them hours.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:08

And then I was like, I'm waiting there. When do you push the rescue button when there's about to be an emergency or when the emergency already happened? Or like, do I wait till I'm down there with a broken leg? If I'm lucky, or do I just keep like I have never had such crazy thoughts go through my mind as during this like four and a half hour period.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:32

You needed total focus to get through that.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:35

And I was, I mean, I'm my my mentality was like, just keep moving, just keep going forward.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:41

There's only one person that's gonna get you off that mountain.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:44

Yes. And I was almost grateful that I was by myself because I feel like if someone else had been there, I would have cried. And because I was alone, I had no business crying.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:53

No one to cry to. What's the point?

SPEAKER_03 1:10:55

No one's gonna give you a couple of things. Crying will do nothing. Crying will do absolutely nothing. So I just I just kept moving forward. And then there wasn't, it was also one of those things where it'd be like really scary ridgeline for like 150 yards, and then you'd like get off the ridgeline, you're like, oh my god, it's over. And then there'd be like another one like 20 feet later. So like I kept thinking like this has to be over. It can't get the like it can't get any worse. And I just kept thinking like it can't keep being like this. And so I just kept going forward. Like there was a point at which it would have made sense to turn around, but I didn't know how much further. I just kept thinking like it's almost over. And then every time I would get off, I would be like, oh thank god. And then it'd just be more. Um, and there was a point right at the very also, you can see Wheeler the whole time. And I was like, as soon as I get to Wheeler, I know the route down and it's like breezy. And so I just kept being like, I'm almost there, I'm almost there, it's right there. And then you know how it is sometimes in the mountains where it's like it's right there, but then it's just like it looks like it's right there. You just never get there. And I was just like, I like the mental mind games that I was experiencing were just the most intense I've ever experienced. And there was a point very close in the end, right before probably the very last section of like Scary Ridgeline, where I did sit down and cry and just like said, like, I just want to go home. I want to go home so bad. Released. Released at that point. Yeah. I was so hungry. I was so like, I just hadn't breathed in like hours and hours. And then I got down and my boyfriend came and picked me up, and I was just like traumatized, like shell-shocked. And he was like, What happened out there? And I was like, uh, I just please just take me out. I just like went, laid on the couch, like stared into middle distance for like two hours, and he was like, This is really concerning me. And I'm like, Well, I didn't die, so we're good.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:40

I'm alive now.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:42

But to bring this full circle, the article that I wrote about it in Like the Wind is really about sort of what are we seeking when we do these things? Because I had an I had a moment out there of realization that like you can't just do harder things forever because eventually there is like a line of like, is this of value to me? And I think I had a moment out there where I was like, this is beyond what I am looking to get out of running, which is joy, beautiful places, and like loving my body better, and like learning to be in relationship with my body better. Like running for me a lot is about my relationship to my body. And I don't need to be on a scary bridge line for five hours to love my body better. That's it, it's unrelated. Like, I do not need to do that. I'm not a thrill seeker, I'm not out there for adrenaline. Like, I have plenty of adrenaline. Like my body, my body acts like I'm having an adrenaline rush all the time. I don't need that. And so that was very much like a realization of like, what am I searching for when I'm running? And like, what where's the line of like that's not something I need to do?

SPEAKER_01 1:13:49

It's amazing you had the ability to make that decision. I feel like most runners don't. It's just like once you set your sight on a goal, most runners just go for it.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:00

I mean, I did finish that day, like I didn't have a choice, but well, I mean, you had to get off the mountain. I did have to do that. Um, yes. But then my the goal was then to go back and link these four routes to create, like to do the full traverse as one. And I decided not to do that.

Where To Find Christine And Final Advice

SPEAKER_04 1:14:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:20

Probably smart.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:21

Yeah. Well, Christine, where can our listeners find you? Um, rumor has it, you have a podcast.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:27

Yes. Let me plug all my things really quick. Yes. Um I have a memoir called Alone in Wonderland about my through hike on the Wonderland Trail pre-diagnosis. Um, I don't talk about pots in it, but if you know pots, you can see that I have it based on my descriptions of my body. Um, I also put together a short story collection called Blood, Sweat, Tears. That's all hiking, backpacking, trail running, and mountaineering stories by women, all around relationship to body. So many of the same themes that we just talked about. Um, so you can get those anywhere books are sold. Uh, I'm on Instagram, TikTok, and Substack at Rugged Outdoors Woman. I'm extremely accessible. If you want to chit chat with me or talk about pots or ask questions, I will answer you. Um, and then I have a website, ruggedoutdoorswoman.com. And we'll link to all of these in the show notes. Yes, don't try to remember them. A long list of links. Um, and then yeah, I just recently launched a podcast called The Outdoors and Women Plus Book Pod, where I interview the authors of outdoor adventure books by women and gender expansive folks. This is exciting.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:34

I'm gonna start listening, start following. Amazing. And Christine, we like to end our podcast by letting our um interviewee give a piece of unsolicited advice to our audience. What advice do you have today? Literally anything. Literally anything.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:55

Okay. One time I saw a article that I think was on like runner's world or something, and it was like, if you can run a 5k, you can run a 10K. Um, and I thought, you know what? If you can run a mile, you can run a hundred miles. Yes. So that is my that is my my unsolicited advice is just like don't sell yourself short. Love it.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:18

Love it. Exponential growth will take you a long way.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:20

I think Andrea Kuiman gave a very similar piece of advice in our last podcast. And one of our listeners was like, just no, just no.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:31

He doesn't run. Yeah, he's not related to me. Christine, this was an amazing. I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation and meeting you. And you know, I'm at that stage where validation is important and hearing other experiences, and just it was amazing to learn about yours. So thank you for coming on the podcast.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:52

Yeah, this was great. Thank you so much.