Welcome And Missed Release

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Hello and welcome to Running with Problems. My name is John Eisen.

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And I'm Miranda Williamson.

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Running with Problems is a podcast about the problems that runners face during a life in running. I'm having trouble with the intros today, babe.

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This is our second time recording, listeners. That short little piece.

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Today on the podcast, we've got Bill Stahl, host of the We Are Superman podcast, race director of the American Heroes Run in Longmont, Colorado.

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And he's a coach and he is writing a book.

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It's all pretty exciting. But before we get into that, Miranda, how are you doing?

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Wow. We've had a rough go of it.

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It's been a minute. By the way, we missed a release date. You guys aren't you guys aren't uh, you know, wrong. We did miss a release date.

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We did miss a release date last week.

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But I think we all told you that that this year we were gonna be a little bit more okay with that. Cause, you know, it's year four of the podcast.

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Right. We were gonna be a little more lax. That's our way of uh keeping this sustainable.

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Keeping this sustainable. And this week we needed a bit of wiggle

Summit’s Emergency Vet Scare

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room.

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Oh my gosh. What happened before Summit got sick.

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Summit did get sick.

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So um, to kick us off first, I had a great run on Pontibu Cannon, my last big training run on Saturday. Came home.

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I mean, that was that's after a week after High Lonesome, where you paced McKinsey for 18 miles across the divide.

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Yes. Oh my gosh. High Lonesome happened. We'll have to check in. I'll have to check in with you about that. But let me finish this summit story. This is gonna be a long intro.

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Yeah.

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Um so it had a bit of diarrhea, which was worsening. I thought was maybe a touch of giardia, and was like, okay, well, if it's bad tomorrow, I'll take him to the emergency vet. If it's not, then I'll just take him to his regular vet on Monday. Well, he threw up and was not doing well on Sunday morning. So we called the vet. I took him in, and they basically kind of sent us home, right? They were like just like they gave us some meds. Here's here's some probiotics and some like sickening anti-diarrhea situation.

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Anti-nause.

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Yeah, anti-nause.

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But the moment we got home.

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Should we even say this is very graphic. I think the listener should know.

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Uh trigger warning if the if this is uh you know if you're triggered by bloody diarrhea, you'll be triggered by this story. Go ahead.

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So had uh shooting blood out of his butt.

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Yes.

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It was very scary.

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It was Yeah, it was graphic.

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We were barely home, and I was like, back to the emergency.

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Right back.

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Right back to the emergency.

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And we were there all day for like twelve hours.

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All day. They kept him overnight on IV, which I think was really helping him. We did all the things that MRI. MRI No, no, not an MRI.

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X-ray, ultrasound.

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Yeah, ultrasound, that's it.

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GR we did some blood testing.

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Oof, yeah.

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Yeah.

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Anyways.

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I stayed with him this morning for three hours in his kennel, just sitting with him.

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And then I swe we switched off. We had like an hour break in between, and then I came and stayed with him. And they said if he ate well, then he could go home.

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So so far, so good. He is home. And we are he is we're hoping he continues to improve.

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Yeah.

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But it has been a whirlwind of two days spent mostly in an animal hospital.

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Ugh. I guess I should preface for new listeners, Summit is our pit bull German Shepherd, nine-year-old Mutt.

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He's amazing. He's got floppy ears. And he's a quirky personality. And he's neurotic and he's scared of garbage trucks. And he's not an adventurer, despite both of us wanting to adventure.

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And him having the name Summit.

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Yeah. He might never climb a summit again.

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No, but he is home with us. He just got a bath because he stunk really badly. And yeah. So we're very hopeful that we're on the up and up. But how was Hilo?

Hardrock Volunteering Highlights

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Well, before Hilo, I left the week before I left for Hard Rock.

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That's right.

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We recorded our last intro just before I left for Hard Rock. Hard Rock was amazing. I volunteered at the Maggie Gulch Aid Station. I saw all but two runners come through our aid station, uh, both of whom came through between the hours of like 2 a.m. and 5 a.m. where I was sleeping. The last runner was our friend Kat, but I actually we actually had a problem with like there wasn't a driver just in case she needed to get off Maggie Gulch, which is at like 11, well, she was time cut. Oh. But it's like a it's out of like 11,000 feet. It's up a rough road. You don't know if their crew can get up there. So um we needed a driver. We usually have one, but there was some situation. So I went to bed so that I would be I would have enough sleep to be able to drive her off in case she needed it. But she had a crew that drove her off. So it the whole the whole hard rock was amazing. We I I saw Courtney come through. She like threw up outside our aid station. She was like puking for like two minutes. High honor. And then she comes on down and she's like, I'm sorry about that, guys. It's really funny. Uh, we saw Ludo, he was like silent, and his his crew took care of him. Uh, I saw all the top runners, all the back-a-packer runners. Um I saw uh Jameel, he was not talking to anybody when he came through. I saw Dom Grossman, he just wanted to play on his phone. I saw Andy Pearson, Andy Pearson uh was a little bit more chit-chatty. Uh and yeah, I saw my my coach Mark Marzon finish the Hard Rock Western States double. Uh, and he he that that second race pushed him to the edge. Like he was pretty rough. I have a good photo of him looking like very distressed. And it's funny because I have a photo of his wife, Ellen, looking very distressed at her first hundred at Leadville. So I kind of want to, you know, put them together and frame it and just give it to them. I think that would be really cute.

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That would be, I like that. So then off to Hilo.

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So

High Lonesome Race Week Chaos

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yeah, after Hard Rock, uh coming out, it was about a 40-hour shift up on Maggie with a couple three-hour naps. Uh, I drove over to Caleb and Kelsey's house and I spent the week preparing for High Lonesome, basically doing all the tasks that needed to be done, as well as my own task preparing for our first RFID timed race and uh distributing the most comms equipment we've ever had for High Lonesome. I probably worked about in preparation for the race about 80 hours in four days, and then uh and then the race happened, and then I worked like 40 hours in two days, and it was uh awesome and a whirlwind. It, you know, you do so much work to prepare for the race, and then the race happens, and all you're doing is like problem solving and then resting in between problem solving. Because, you know, we we have a lot of things dialed pretty well. We have like 400 or 300 volunteers that have come out, and this some and most of the time the systems work really well. I will say the last few hours, the golden hour, everything broke in all the ways that it could. I I know that none of the none of the participants or spectators really could see any of that, but um I was like running around with my hair on fire. Uh, there was a microphone and nobody was on it, so I decided to play announcer, but then systems were breaking, so I would have to like run around and like I was running across the field with batteries. I mean, it was it was a lot. Timing system worked great.

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Uh as a spectator, no one noticed any of that.

SPEAKER_01 8:25

Yeah, well, you know, I I I lived it. Uh timing system worked really well. We got 98.5% read rate. Um, I think the only reason that isn't 99.8 was some antenna placement issues. And then we also had battery failures. So I'm working on replacing my batteries with better batteries and internalizing my cases so they can they can be deployed without being open and be protected from water and dust and bugs and such. So that's all pretty good stuff. I'm really happy with the progress. Um, and I think I know enough to have like a really good timing gear next year. So I'm looking forward to the 50Ks. But yeah, I I basically came home and just zero out. Like I was dead.

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And I was out there too.

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Yeah, you you paced Mac.

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I was pacing McKinsey Schumer, friend of the pot. She's been a guest, and I talk about her often. She was running her first hundred. She got in at the last minute.

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Wednesday evening at 11:30. I sent her a text saying, check your email. The race started Friday morning.

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And she got in off the wait list.

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She's the last person to get off the wait list.

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She had a house booked, she had everything ready, she had her pacers lined up, she had trained, she had done all the things and was still on the wait list. But wow, she got off and I got to send her off, and we went and um I got to experience Hilalton from the other side as a crew and a pacer and not a runner. So I didn't realize how um amazing it is to get to Cottonwood. It is quite treacherous. That road getting to Cottonwood, which is a first aid station at a 50K. Yeah. You ride these Jeeps on in there. It poured rain on us the whole time.

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Yeah, and you don't really have a car to hide in because you have to take a shuttle.

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No, you shuttle in on jeeps on these really rickety roads. It was so cool. Um, I talked to the our Jeep driver about the zombie apocalypse and you know, using his Jeep to survive the zombie apocalypse. It was nice, nice conversation.

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As if you could have gas lasting that long.

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Well, you know.

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I want to give a shout out to the listeners and that came up to me and said hi during the race. Uh, there's uh runner Chet who finished the race, came up and said hi. And then there was another person. Devin. Devin. Yes.

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In the beginning, uh check-in and was like, You're running with problems. Got a selfie with us.

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Yes, that's right. Uh, I'm probably forgetting one or two of you, so I do apologize. I don't create memories well during High Lonesome because I'm working so hard.

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But um Erica, who also finished this year. She came up and chatted with me. Um, she became a listener in our John Fagavarasi episode. She works with John.

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Yeah, she's been an aid station captain for us. Um, we had another aid station captain to finish Hard Rock, and I also saw Katie Grossman who's been on the pod, but did not get a chance to talk to her.

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Oh, bummer.

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At uh at Hard Rock. So just big shout out to all the listeners and thank you for listening. Thank you for supporting us.

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And we've been getting great feedback on our Christine Reed episode.

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So great. That was I mean, it was moving to me, but like I have pots, so like it of course it's moving to me. If you hear that sound, that is summit of dreaming in his sleep next to the podcast.

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I was very happy to hear that sound. Um should we get into the episode? This is a long intro already.

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Yeah, let's get into

Why Bill Stahl Reached Out

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it. Uh Bill Stahl, he contacted us. He does this We Are Superman podcast. Actually, interesting story. You take, he took the podcast over for the from the founder, David Clark, who tragically took his life. He David Clark had founded the, he's written like three books. He's found he founded this uh We Are Superman podcast, he founded this um American Heroes Run, uh supporting like the 9-11 first responders. Uh big on supporting 9-11.

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And um and now Bill is big on supporting suicide prevention for veterans because of how this touched him.

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Yeah, and I thought it was really cool to talk to him and learn more about his story. He does a lot of fun runs around the world and uh, you know, hat works to support and heal people who need it and and bring runners together from the veteran community, which I think is really cool. There's a lot of really strong veteran running groups. You guys see the RWB shirts, that's a veteran group. There's a there's a there's a whole bunch of them out there. Right. And I think I mean running is obviously an amazing sport and really great for people who have general trauma. But if you have specific trauma from uh from time in the armed forces, I think it can be especially helpful. So I would love to do more interviews with people who support veterans in running.

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Right. And I love Bill's stance because he's just very much like this is something we can all get behind across political differences.

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Yeah, we definitely stayed apolitical in the podcast. And I think anytime you talk about the American military these days, uh it can be politically charged. Um, there's a lot of different sides to everything. But, you know, Bill is just focused on supporting runners and veterans, regardless of political affiliation.

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Yeah, so we'll link to all the places where you can find Bill in the show notes so you can go support his cause.

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Yeah, and without further ado, Bill, enjoy.

Bill’s Running Origin Story

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Welcome to our in-home studio, Bill. You are the first in-person guest we've had in quite some time.

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Oh wow. Well, no, thank you so much. I mean, I love this part of Boulder for one thing. I mean, it's all the runners on the way here, so kind of help fire me up.

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So, how long have you lived in the area in Colorado?

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I moved here in 1981.

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Oh, before I was born.

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That's the way it is with most things we do. You know, like uh everything I everybody I've coached, whatever. It's like, oh yeah, you like graduated college before I was born. And you you've been coaching since before I was born. So I hear that a lot.

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Where were you before that?

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I grew up in New York and uh went to college in Philly and lived a little bit in Minnesota, California, and came here. And the company I was working for once moved me back to California. I said, nope, stay in here.

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I I I feel it. I feel that.

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I totally get that. I have spent my whole career trying to avoid living in California. Yes. Stop.

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I'm from I'm from California.

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Really whereabouts.

SPEAKER_02 15:34

Um I'm from Northern California originally, but then I lived the past 15 years in San Diego and then the past five years here. All right. Yeah. Well, cool. It was a good move for me too. Now, did you must have gotten into running in Colorado then?

SPEAKER_00 15:50

Uh no, I actually started before. Really? Yeah. Back uh my I don't know, I was about 18 or so. Basically, I was um uh you know, I was playing other sports and somehow decided found out that I should be a runner. And so uh I started running when I was uh 17, 18 years old and ran my first marathon within a year, which was really stupid. But I who knew? You know, there was nothing written back then. Um in fact my first marathon uh was the Penn Relays marathon, because I w I went to Penn. They used to have a marathon with that, and um I wore what today you'd call cross trainers. Uh there were no running shoes then, and basically. And um you you wore cotton because there was no performance fabric, so uh I really suffered badly, but you know, that that's that's what you had back then. Was that what everyone was doing? Yeah. Yeah, but back in the old days, yeah. Oh yeah, no, the chafing would be like well, the nipple chafer. Oh, I mean it was so bad. I couldn't get in a shower for three days. Hot, cold didn't matter. So always wear number eleven.

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Yeah. There you go.

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But but I mean, I didn't even know about putting band-aids on or something. Oh man. I mean, you couldn't go to the internet, it didn't exist.

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So you just had to ask other runners. Were you did you have like a community of runners at Penn?

unknown 17:07

No.

SPEAKER_00 17:08

No, not at all.

unknown 17:09

No. No.

SPEAKER_00 17:11

In fact, my training consisted of uh probably five weeks of training, and one of those weeks was spring break in Fort Lauderdale. So yeah, not uh not ideal by today's standards, but who knew?

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And what about your progression to ultra running?

Early Leadville And Old-School Ultras

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So uh I moved to Colorado, and I guess you might consider the first ultra I ran was Pike's Peak.

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Oh yeah.

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The marathon. Yeah. Well, I couldn't understand the point behind running up and not running down.

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I could not either.

SPEAKER_00 17:39

Yeah. So um but back then it was 28 miles, actually. Okay. So it was longer. So I ran in 84, 86, and 88. And then um uh by 92 I ran my first Leadville. So I mean Leadville 100. Right. Oh.

unknown 17:56

Wow.

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Oh, that's exciting.

SPEAKER_01 17:58

Yeah, and like why did you 75 of us in the race? At level 100. Yeah.

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The race that starts like 900 people now. Right.

SPEAKER_01 18:05

Oh man.

SPEAKER_00 18:06

No, you could literally sign up like you know, a few weeks before I may have signed up that day. I don't know. The day of registration. Yeah. I mean, yeah, it was no demand.

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What was the community like here in Colorado at that time? You know, how did you find out about Leadville that it was even there and that you wanted to run it?

SPEAKER_00 18:24

You know, back in the 80s, I just I'd started running and I ran a lot of races. Uh my my training philosophy was every other year, as I said, it ran Pike's Peak in 84, 86, and 88. So I kind of ran long and even numbered years, and I trained for like 5K's, 10Ks in the odd numbered years. Yeah. Just kind of you know, mixing it up. And then in 91, some one of my friends said, Hey, you know, I I know this guy running this race up in Leadville. You want to come up and watch it? Never heard of this. Went up there in 91. And as I tell people, don't go up there to watch the Leadville 100 because you're gonna want to run it next year. Well, that's what happened with me. And I actually I was a uh high school basketball coach. I was coaching track by then, but um our scoreboard broke. And so I decided to run in '92 as a fundraiser so I could raise funds for a new scoreboard. And I did all these stunts, like um at halftime of basketball games, I would run laps around the gym and have people wager how many laps I could run in my suit. Yeah, we're prepare running, she was in the suit, how many laps I could run. It was a Catholic school, they're always into gambling there, you know, bingo and everything. And um and so uh I ended up raising like five grand for new scoreboards, and uh, you know, I had everybody come up there and you know, it was it was really cool. Uh I I didn't finish um as I found out you shouldn't spend so much time in the aid station. I, you know, again, no, I didn't know about training for ultras back then. And so um I was so happy to see everybody from the school. In fact, there were pictures of me. Uh you've done Leadville or you've been up there.

SPEAKER_01 19:52

I I crewed it for the first time last year. But I mean I I've run the heavy half and I've been to the 50 miler. Have you been to the races at all? I haven't. No. But yeah, we've been to other races around the area too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:04

So in any case, back then um Twin Lakes wasn't the big party that it is, but it's huge now. No, it's it's crazy, but uh but the aid station back then was actually outside the fire station. Just you know, just outside.

SPEAKER_01 20:16

Just like right next to that fire station. Yeah. And now that's an like for perspective, if you haven't been there, now that's like the opening of like a parade route of aid station, basically.

SPEAKER_00 20:27

Yeah, yeah, totally. But yeah, now like all the food and everything is inside the fire station. But back then, um, it was not. So there are actually pictures of me that first Leadville. Um, they had a they had a basketball hoop inside there, and I was shooting hoops.

SPEAKER_03 20:40

No, what during your race?

SPEAKER_00 20:43

Well, when I got cut.

SPEAKER_03 20:44

Oh, when you got cut.

SPEAKER_00 20:48

Because yeah, I just wasted too much time, you know. And but I felt so good that I, you know, I was shooting hoops. I was great. And so um I came back in '94 and then finished it. That was my first Leadville finish.

SPEAKER_01 20:59

Yeah, that's not a race where you can waste a lot of time. No. No, it's you you kind of got to be efficient in order to do what.

SPEAKER_02 21:07

And for your second one, did you train for it then?

SPEAKER_00 21:10

Well, I trained for both of them. But I just I trained uh obviously I started learning more about ultrasound. And also I learned just don't waste so much stinking time. So that worked out. But um yeah, when I finished in '94, I think there were maybe 175 finishers. Total. And you know, seriously, you would just like sign up. My rule actually is I would sign up for the race the day after the state track meet, which is always the weekend before Memorial Day. And that's when I would even find my lodging and everything. I mean now, I mean I mean, th they're booked out even a year ahead of time. You can't find anything. And of course, you know, you gotta sign up and go through the lottery and everything. Right. Back in those days, you would run through the night and you wouldn't I you wouldn't see anybody for twenty or thirty minutes at a time. I mean, you you were truly by yourself. And these days it's just a conga line the whole time.

SPEAKER_01 22:04

That's that's crazy. Did you uh do you value having like gotten into the sport when it was just nascent and early in this area?

SPEAKER_02 22:14

And raw and wild.

unknown 22:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:17

Um, you know, it it's really kind of funny you ask that, John, because um I don't think I ever put any importance into it whatsoever. You know, now you hear all sorts of stories, everybody's got a got a why and everything. Back then, I have no idea if I had a why or not, except for I was raising funds for a scoreboard the first time. Sure. I knew I liked it, and you know, I'd entered that race and then I'd enter other races and such. But I had a why.

SPEAKER_01 22:42

You didn't didn't like consider why you were running it.

SPEAKER_00 22:44

You were just doing it. Yeah. I just I I just liked it. And um Yeah, there were there was something of a community, but I I think the community's gotten stronger over the years. Definitely.

SPEAKER_01 22:54

Yeah. Or well, I mean, not necessarily stronger. Some areas have gotten stronger, and then other areas it's more fractured because there's just so many more people running these races that you know it's not there there's probably a group of people who was like that runs Leadville every year. And now no one can do that because they can't enter it every year. Right. And those communities get fractured.

SPEAKER_00 23:13

Oh, yeah. No, I get people who ask me all the time, like, oh, do you know so-and-so who ran the Leadville 100? It's like, nope. I mean, there's just too many people to know anymore. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:22

Bill, we touched on a little bit in our phone conversation some of these running adventures that you've been on, or like we we like to call them runcations.

SPEAKER_00 23:30

Yeah, I love that term.

SPEAKER_02 23:32

I I like talking about that because it really inspires people, like what what adventures they can do. Because not everyone can do the Leadville marathon. It's not like in the cards for them time-wise, the the uh cutoffs are a little aggressive, but they can go on these big run adventures. Oh, sure. So I'd love to hear about some of

Run Travel And Runcations Mindset

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those.

SPEAKER_00 23:53

Yeah, I mean, um I I just to me it I don't even really want to travel unless I can run. So last year when I had two foot surgeries, I just didn't didn't travel. So uh yeah, no, I've I've had some real I mean, seriously, we could take up the next three hours talking about some of these. I've got so many crazy stories. One time um I flew to London and I made the mistake of going to sleep when I got there, you know, after the red eye. You know, they now I know you're supposed to like stay awake, get on their clock.

SPEAKER_01 24:23

Oh, yeah, especially the overnight one where you lay in the morning.

SPEAKER_00 24:25

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so I get to my hotel room, I went to sleep. And so um I woke up at two or three in the afternoon, and I am like, oh God, I'm I'm it's like my head was velcro to the pillow. So I said, I'm gonna just go for a run and I'm gonna run until I'm awake. Well, I ended up running for about 14 miles, which was great. I saw a lot of London. Yeah. Kind of got my bearings and everything. But you know that big boulevard in front of Buckingham Palace?

SPEAKER_01 24:49

Never been.

SPEAKER_00 24:50

Oh, okay. I mean you've been you've probably seen it in pictures of some picture. It's a big wide boulevard.

SPEAKER_01 24:55

And it's where the the people with the with the funny hats. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:05

I don't know what it connects to, but any case, I'm standing on the corner, they're waiting for the light to change, and all of a sudden I see all these flashing lights coming, and here comes this whole motorcade. And I'm standing in the corner, and there goes the Queen and Prince Philip and Prince Charles and his wife and Vladimir Putin. Yeah. And actually, I should have mentioned before, when I looked down the boulevard, the whole boulevard was lined by Russian flags. And I'm thinking, oh my God, am I so groggy that I landed in Moscow and didn't realize it? Um it turns out Vladimir Putin was on a state visit. Uh first one since Tsar Alexander in 1883 or some crazy thing. The reason why I learned all this was because I kept running into Vladimir Putin the next three days. Everywhere you'd run. Yeah, I mean, I tried to go to the Tower of London. Can't go in. Vladimir Putin's in there. And you can see him in the distance. They do this whole thing, and then he's ruining your vacation. Yeah, totally. Was he wearing a shirt?

SPEAKER_04 25:58

Yeah, he was.

SPEAKER_00 26:00

Yeah, yeah, I think uh that's required garb at back Buckingham Palace for state dinners and such. Yeah, and then a couple weeks later, I was up in Edinburgh, and um, I'm running on the Royal Mile on Sunday morning, and here comes the motorcade. And this time here was the Queen and Prince Philip going to church. And I'm like, oh my God, they're gonna think I'm like like tailing them and like you know, Oh yeah, the Secret Service is gonna be like that guy has been around. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:26

So um American. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:28

So then when I was in London, um I I was looking for a race, and so I found on the internet this race that said, half off your first pint. I said, okay, that's my kind of race there, you know. So I go to this uh clubhouse of the South London Harriers and hatch. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:47

Yeah. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:49

Well, it was just a regular cross-country and they have like leagues over there. It's it's a really cool concept that they all have in the U.S. So every other week they have like leagues against other clubs, and it's just like, you know, softball leagues, you know, volleyball leagues, whatever that we have here.

SPEAKER_01 27:03

But they have amateur cross-country.

SPEAKER_00 27:05

Yeah, and they run they run against other clubs and they keep scores, you know, for the whole summer kind of thing. But the week I was there was just kind of their um uh pub run or whatever. So basically you go into this first it's a two-story clubhouse. The first floor is like an old basketball court, like something you'd see like out of Hoosiers, you know, something really old. Go and sign up, and then this race was a bitch. I mean, first of all, I was still kind of jet-legged, and it was hot and humid, and it just goes straight uphill. And you know, so I'm going up there, and I get up there, and now you're going down this like forested lane, and eventually it's like there's no course markings. I'm just like, I had to stand around and wait for somebody to catch up to me to let me know where to go. And um, and then at one point, like we're running across this like plowed farm field. It was like you know, you like the curl corduray, like a furrowed thing. I mean, uh, it was all you know, soft and it was like crazy to run through that. And then you had like this screaming downhill at the end. And uh, you know, I survived the race. It was all really cool. And then afterward, like they had showers there and you shower, and then you go up to the second floor, which is a pub in their clubhouse. Oh, that's fun. Yeah, and I go up there, and you know, the pub probably was big enough for about 50 people, but um, they had about a hundred people jammed in there. Yeah, and so I was just drinking with these people, and it was a Thursday night. I mean, I'm like, I just have to stumble back to a hotel room. You guys probably have to go to work tomorrow or something, and and I'm used to it. Yeah, and I'm looking on the walls there, and turns out this club is 130 years old. Whoa, and they had pictures on the wall of like former members. I'm like, you have Gordon Peary up there, and you may not know that name, but he was a famous British Olympian from the 1950s, 60s, and they go, Oh yeah, good, good old Gordon, he was a good guy, you know. And and it's like he was an Olympian for God's sake, you know, and just and um they were getting such a kick, they they ordered fish and chips for the Yank, and they um and they got such a kick because like I couldn't eat this thing. It was this big greasy plank of fish, and it was like after that run and everything, and they were just having so much fun with me, like the Yank can't handle this. Um but yeah, we were drinking till like 12 30 in the morning there, and they gave me one of their uh singlets too that I still have South London Harriers. So yeah, just super cool. Just went out and found a found a club and ran with them and drank with them all night.

SPEAKER_02 29:24

So have you ever done a beer mile?

SPEAKER_00 29:27

No. No, I haven't done a beer mile. I've done a milk mile. A milk mile. Yeah. I um uh the kids on my cross-country team, I actually had them do a marshmallow mile last year, which is kind of fun. Wait, how many marshmallows to a mile? Well, I took a cup and just filled it with mini marshmallows and they had to chug the cup of mini marshmallows every lap. Uh that was a pretty fun thing to do.

SPEAKER_02 29:52

Preparing them for the beer mile.

SPEAKER_00 29:56

I think kids say, Coach, why are you training to run run the Leadville 100? It's a lot easier to train for a beer mile when it's like Well, yeah, but I don't know. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 30:05

I'd rather train for Leadville.

SPEAKER_02 30:08

Um this um throwing races and events for charity is something you and I have in common, Bill. I used to do a beer mile for charity.

SPEAKER_04 30:16

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_02 30:17

Yeah, it was for the Emilio Nairs Foundation. This was a charity in San Diego that um provided transportation to and from cancer treatments for kids.

SPEAKER_04 30:26

Oh, neat.

SPEAKER_02 30:27

And I would do a beer mile every year, and it became one of the most popular events. We got sponsored by PBR two years in a row.

SPEAKER_04 30:34

Nice.

SPEAKER_02 30:35

And then Loganitas, which was a local brewery, took over after PBR had to withdraw their sponsorship.

SPEAKER_00 30:42

They decided you uh were too sketchy for them. You want a local brewery.

SPEAKER_02 30:48

Yeah, but the Loganitas was rough because they were like um six and seven percent.

SPEAKER_01 30:53

Wait, they're they're ID. You don't want to do that at a beer mile.

SPEAKER_02 30:58

The PBR was great because it was it didn't even meet the official rules. It was just below the five percent, which is the minimum for official rules.

SPEAKER_01 31:07

Yeah, there's a there's a governing body.

SPEAKER_00 31:10

There's a little bit of a serious, yeah. There were always accusations about you know whether people really set records or not.

SPEAKER_02 31:18

Yeah, so I had um uh an elite marathoner that would win with the PBR. He would train for it specifically with the PBR and he'd win and take the trophy. Um, but then when we upped it to the six and seven percent, he went down by the Scottish ultra runner.

SPEAKER_03 31:36

Took him down.

SPEAKER_01 31:38

Nice. Wow. The Scottish You hear they they ran out of beer in Boston because the Scottish team was playing? Yeah. FIFA Scott?

SPEAKER_00 31:47

And it's pretty funny. Well, now they've invaded Miami.

SPEAKER_01 31:50

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:50

Yeah, they're playing right now as we speak.

SPEAKER_01 31:52

Oh, I wanted to watch that game.

SPEAKER_00 31:54

Stupend.

SPEAKER_02 31:54

Yeah, well, what other runcations have you been on, Bill?

Island Running From Cruise Excursions

SPEAKER_00 31:58

Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_02 31:58

So um I want like tell the top three at least.

SPEAKER_00 32:01

Yeah, I was gonna say it's tough to pare it down. I mean, um I have run in the Canary Islands. I you know, heard your podcast.

SPEAKER_01 32:09

Yeah, where'd you run there?

SPEAKER_00 32:10

Uh I was on three different islands. So I was on Grant Gran Canaria, which I think is where you're raised. That's where we yeah, that's where we were at. Yeah, I've run on Aracife and Tenerife. Oh, and Tenerife's the big one. Yeah. So in Tenerife, um I was running, so there's a huge mountain there, uh T T T I don't know how to say T-E-I-D-E National Park. And it's like a 10,000 foot peak up there. Oh wow. They've got this really cool area to run on that looks really prehistoric and uh cool rock formations and everything. So I I got to run up there, but um just that was um i i it so i uh what uh how how would I put it? Uh I had to do a lot of impromptu running there. So basically um a lot of my runcations, whatever, have been, you know, specifically like me traveling around. Like um when I was in um I was in France and northern Spain and Andorra a couple of years ago, and I was just driving. And so I could just basically run every morning, go see these places, and then move on to the next city, and you know, it was really freestyle. But when I was over in the Canaries and Madeira, which is another volcanic island, it's a Portuguese possession, uh, we were on a cruise. So my parents are in their 90s, so the way for the best way for them to travel is by cruise. So what would happen is we would go on these excursions and I would tell the bus driver to leave me off 10 to 12 kilometers from the port. And they all looked at me like I was crazy. And I would literally I would change in the back of the bus. You know, I'd have my clothes and I would say to somebody on there here, What room are you in? I'll just come get my clothes from you later on. And so I would just literally get out of the bus and go run. And by definition, I'm gonna end up with a net downhill because the ship's always at sea level there. So um, so yeah, so in all these places, you know, I would like Tenerife was just absolutely gorgeous. I started at this like um convent and ran down this this certain trail, and it got really weird. I got lost a couple times, and next thing you know, I was in the middle of a goat farm. I believe it. Cool goats there. Yeah. And then um I did you guys get to any any of the other islands around? We think we were just on Gran Canaria, yeah. Okay, that trip. Yeah. I'd like to go back though. Yeah, the um the great um Tenerife is just beautiful. They got this huge like opera house there. But yeah, I just it'd be 10 to 12 kilometers, but then I just zigzag all over and end up, you know, and just see everything, which was super cool. That's a fun way to do it. Yeah. Um, when I was in Gran Canaria, um, I you know, I was listening to your podcast. Yeah, I think I ran in that canyon you were in. And you know, I'll have to show you the picture later on. I mean, I was I was in some interesting places there on some runs there, but it's a big island. I mean, there's a lot of it changes a lot from side to side.

SPEAKER_01 34:56

I can uh it is 77 miles to cross it. Yeah. Is it really okay? That's how long the race is. Because you start on start on the beach of uh what's the city? La Palma? Uh yeah. Uh Las Palmas. Las Palmas. And then you run all the way to the other side of Mas Palomas. And you end on the beach on Mas Palomas. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. That is the beast of a race. Gosh, that was fun. Miranda doesn't feel the same way.

SPEAKER_02 35:22

No, it was the hardest 50s, still the hardest 50 miler I've ever done in my life.

SPEAKER_00 35:28

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 35:28

And I've done San Juan Solstice twice.

SPEAKER_00 35:33

Wow. Yeah, and you know, I I've I've seen that race and I was tempted to want to go do it, but uh, to think about that. The other one I want to do, I've been to the Azores, which um uh the Azores for people don't know, I sound like the Azores Chamber of Commerce all the time. It's just like Hawaii. It's got nine volcanic islands. Um, it's always between 70 and 80 degrees. It's um and it's only a four-hour flight from JFK or Boston. It's really easy to get there, and nobody knows about it. But it's not as crazy as Hawaii, and it's got Portuguese culture, it's got great seafood and whale watching. We did some just amazing snorkeling there, but they've got like a three-day stage race there that just looks beastly that I want to go back and do some.

SPEAKER_04 36:15

That sounds fun.

SPEAKER_00 36:16

Yeah, the island um it's covered with blue hydrangeas, and um the the hydrangeas are brought in to be hedgerows between uh cow farms, basically, and so they've got cheese like crazy there, and they have like street bullfights going on, and it's just it's just it's such a cool place, and it's right there and much cheaper than going to Hawaii.

SPEAKER_01 36:37

Yeah, I I love how different the European culture is, and like the running is is amazing, especially on those islands, but and then the culture you come back and it's just the food's like super good and super local, and like a whole everything that they that you can like buy in the market is mostly made locally, and it's I don't know, it's a big change from America to style.

SPEAKER_00 37:02

No, you don't have to process food over there.

SPEAKER_04 37:05

It's great.

SPEAKER_00 37:06

Yeah, no, it's uh it's a great culture over there. I mean, I love Spain, I love Portugal, and and those islands are amazing. But um here some other great stories, uh Bruncation stories here.

South Africa Runs And Safety Lessons

SPEAKER_00 37:16

We were on another cruise, it was my dad's 90th birthday, and this one we went to South Africa and Namibia. Oh and South Africa running is sketchy beyond belief.

SPEAKER_01 37:26

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:26

This is what makes higher ratings for your podcast here with stories like this. Um South Africa supposedly has like the third highest crime rate in the world, and so you you see it there. Um when I ran in Cape Town, Cape Town is absolutely beautiful, but part of it looks like the French Riviera, and part of it is the worst poverty you've ever seen in your life. And you run along the waterfront there, uh it's just the w the ocean is wild and it's just absolutely stunning. But if it's very, very noticeable that all the runners out there seem to be white. And you know, for a country that is like 80% black, it just seemed very out of place. And then um we we moved on, and one of the runs I did was in um uh it's it's uh by Port Elizabeth, which has a new indigenous name that begins with like a GS something. But we were there on I think it was Boxing Day. So that's a holiday there. And so um they told me, Oh yeah, this is a really nice beach you can go run on and everything. Well, I couldn't find it, but I'd seen these like Victorian buildings up on the hill there. And I said, Oh, that would be like a cool place to go run to. But to get there, I had to cross these railroad tracks and then go under this crazy highway viaduct that was there, super highway there. Well, to get across the railroad tracks, um, there's no way across except they had this pedestrian bridge, and I come up to it and there's it's gated off. It's locked. And I'm like, ah crap, what are you? And the security guard comes out and says, You know, what are you doing? And I'm like, Well, I just want to get to the other side. And he looks at me like, Are you sure? And I'm like, Yeah. So um I I go to the he look he opens up the gate and I go to the other side and I get under this viaduct, and it is like the apocalypse under there. I mean, you just look around and there's like you know, needles and you know passed out bodies around there kind of thing. And I still remember there was a sign on the um pillar of the viaduct that said, um, abortions, penis enlargements, don't lose your lover, and a phone number. I'm like, they got it all covered here, man. So um I got through the viaduct and I go up the hill. And by the way, I'm looking for an ATM. I I wanted to get some South African cash when I was there. So I go up this hill towards these buildings there, and it doesn't get any better. I mean, it's just sketchy, sketchy, sketchy. And I get up to where the buildings are, there's a beautiful square there. There's the library, the city hall, there's a statue of Queen Victoria there, and like you literally, like there's just like papers blowing through, like you know, like the apocalypse happened. There's no human beings there. It's a holiday. I'm like, where is everybody, you know? So um I there's a big fort there. I ran to that, but it was closed because of the holiday. And then I ran, finally found a part of the city where there were like people out there drinking beers and you know, having, you know, a holiday. And um, and there was this row of ATMs there, uh like five of them all in a row. And I'd heard stories that there are gangs of teenagers who will like surround tourists at the ATMs and offer to help them. Yes. Yeah. Well, help you pull out some money. Yeah, yeah. So um my card wouldn't work in the first two, and then I get to the third one, and by then here's the gang of teenagers. Oh no. Fortunately, some other some it's a local guy pulled up his car and basically stood sentry over me while I was working the ATM and kept the teenagers at bay. Well, I was hoping to get, I forget, a couple thousand Rand or whatever, I forget the conversion rate, but um, yeah, I figured, okay, give me two thousand Rand bills, and I had one of those, you know, uh arm pad or arm sleeves, you know, to carry my phone. Oh, yeah, for the phone. And my card was in there. So I figured I just shoved a couple bills in there. Well, no, what does it spit out like all small bills? So I had a wad of bills like an inch thick. Oh yeah. And it's on my arm. So now I'm like running back down to where the ship is. You know, I'm like, you know, that always gets your heart pumping. Yeah. And so the ship leaves at like 6 30. And so yeah, I got plenty of time. I'm running down there. And um, I know there's this road that goes to the ship, and yeah, I get there, I'll have plenty of time. Well, I I'm running up the road, and there's a huge fence across the road with barbed wire on top, and I'm looking at this like, God, can I burrow under here or something? You know, we runners, you know, trespassing. Sure, yeah, yeah. Everything's about trespassing. A little bit of trespassing, never hurt anybody. Yeah. Well, there's just no way through this thing. So I'm like, ah crap. I gotta turn around and go right back under that viaduct again. Well, now you got a lot of cash on you. With a lot of cash, yeah. It's great. Well, as I'm going back, there's a security guard literally pulling a fence closed across the road. If I had been like two minutes later, I would have been trapped. I would have seen the ship just pull away from the dock, and I for and he just looked at me like, what the hell are you doing here, you know? And so fortunately, and and then I just like sprinted through the viaduct and managed to get back to the ship in time there.

SPEAKER_01 42:10

So um you really get to know a place when you run through it. One of the things I love about it. This reminds me of when we were in Jamaica.

SPEAKER_04 42:19

And yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:21

I was training for Barclay at the time. So I was like super serious. I'm gonna give my runs in, doesn't matter what else. And we were in this very fancy like house with like uh a chef and service. Like and maids and butlers and all that. But like you step out the door and it's just this tiny little hamlet on the corner of Jamaica, and it's yeah, it is pretty rough. Like there's like a dead dog like a hundred yards from the villa. But they don't expect the people staying at the villa to leave. Right, right. They expect them to stay in this nice little cushy place. But I'm like, no, I need to get I need to do 20 miles. Right. And they're like, like, what the fuck is this kid doing? And yeah, every day I was out there running on these tiny little roads with car that cars would like brush me like within inches of me because I'm there's no shoulder, and I'm running up these hills, and you just see just the real Jamaican people living there. Like, not the tourist side. No, you know, you see the you see the the wild dogs and cats, you see the you see dead animals, you see people going to work, and some people just sitting down on their porch, just like, look, what is that white dude doing?

SPEAKER_04 43:34

Right.

SPEAKER_01 43:35

Um, but yeah, I I love I love how intimate you can learn about a place by running through it.

SPEAKER_00 43:42

Oh no. Yeah, I mean, you know, even my mom would see pictures, you saw so much more than we did, and it's like, yeah, but I saw like the real areas like you're talking about, Jeff. I mean, it's it it is interesting. Um I got to run in the Copper Canyon.

SPEAKER_01 43:54

Oh, down in Mexico.

SPEAKER_00 43:56

Yeah, before Born's Run came out. Um Yeah, well so before before ultra running was popular. Yeah, yeah. So so I'd seen the Tarahomaras. You know, really? They ran the in 92 and 94, so I saw them there.

SPEAKER_01 44:08

So I at Leadville, because you you you're going back to Leadville every year now or most years.

SPEAKER_00 44:13

Yeah, not everyone, because I was having knee surgeries, but that's why another story.

SPEAKER_02 44:17

Oh yeah, we'll get to that. Yeah. We wanna we wanna talk to we want to talk about that.

SPEAKER_00 44:20

Yeah, but no, I so I went down to the Copper Canyon and like I I ran down there and um you know, so when I read the book later on, it's like yeah, I know all those places, which is super cool. But um so the people don't know the Copper Canyon's like the Grand Canyon, but four times the size. And you go down there and there's no like trail signs like you have here. I mean, uh I was staying in a hotel that was literally built into the wall of the canyon. Wow. It it hung over the canyon. It was cool as hell. But I had to keep that, that was like my North Star. I had to keep that in sight because otherwise I could have gotten totally lost. And um I probably never would have seen any Tower Homara's there, except I was I was running on this trail, and all of a sudden out of the corner of my eye, I saw a goat. I kind of looked at the goat, and there's a whole Tower Homara cave settlement right there.

SPEAKER_01 45:09

And um but yeah, they wrestled near the trail, but not been supervisible.

SPEAKER_00 45:14

Yeah, and you know that's part of the reason why it never got conquered. You know, conquistadors could never find them, basically. Uh that's why they're the only pure tribe left down in Mexico. But they um uh very you know, very shy people, they're very tiny. Um you'd see them at all the uh bus stations and train stations there. They're they're selling blankets and these little woven baskets. Uh super cool. But um the the railway to get in there is incredible. And if you you've probably read about it in Born to Run, where I mean it took the Mexican government like 90 years to build this rail, narrow gauge rail line and went over like 120 trestles and 90 bridges, and um it was uh tunnels, I should say, but it just insane. But so cool running down there. But it's like, yeah, you got to know this place here. You're like nobody else can.

SPEAKER_01 46:00

You know, it's I mean, standing on that in that hotel looking over the canyon is not the same as going down there, totally seeing it from the bottom and then climbing back up. Right. Right? You just get you just get a more unique perspective for sure.

Copper Canyon And Tarahumara Sightings

SPEAKER_01 46:15

It's closer to the action. I'm wondering what the experience was like when the Tarumarans came to Leadville. Like, did you hear were people like talking about them in whispers? Was it like a big show? Like, how did how did that happen?

SPEAKER_00 46:28

Yeah, no, it was a big deal. Um and so um I mean, Chris McChristopher McDougall did a good job of describing what it was like. He did miss one important detail, I always thought. So basically in '92, um, they crapped out. They did not finish. And part of it was that in their culture, they only accept food that's handed to them. So they got to the eight stations, they see all these all this food laid out, and they just, well, it must be for somebody else because nobody's giving it to them. Oh. And so they completely dehydrated and starved. And so I passed. Um and this is part of the trail that uh is not part of the race anymore, but on uh the kind of the face of Mount Elbert, they were just sitting on the side of the trail, they were done. And um they were wearing those colorful tunics and their hirachis. I mean, I mean, they were striking, you know, it was just amazing. And then in '94, um, you know, when they actually did finish and they came in first, third, and fifth, um, I was going up hope, and they were coming back, and they were just like bounding like jackrabbits, you know, coming down the hill there. It was just insane watching them. It kind of reminded me of seeing David Roach a couple of years ago when I mean I was going down into Twin Lakes and he was already coming up, and I'm like, nobody can be this fast here. And I mean, he's just like crushing it going uphill. And that's what the Tower Humaras looked like. Of course, back then, um, though, Ann Trayson was actually ahead of them at that point.

SPEAKER_04 47:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 47:51

Yeah. And so uh yeah, I saw her and then I saw these Tower Humaras in pursuit in pursuit. And again, they're just like amazing how they could just hop, hop, hop. And um, I I talked to one guy who was pacing them. Again, I don't think this was in the book. He said, like the her one of them, their hirachi, broke while he was crossing the Arkansas River. And he said, the guy reached down, fixed this thing, and put it back on without ever breaking stride, basically.

SPEAKER_01 48:14

So I think it's impressive when I can take off my jacket while still walking. Right. Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_02 48:23

So that's amazing. I listened to your uh podcast on Anne Trayson with Anne Trace. She's something. Yeah, what a legend.

SPEAKER_00 48:32

Totally. Yeah, that was a lot of fun. And she says she's gonna come to the American Heroes Run. So I I'm excited to see if she'll make it there. Trevor Burrus, Jr. What is the American Heroes

American Heroes Run Explained

SPEAKER_00 48:41

Run?

unknown 48:41

Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00 48:41

So uh David Clark started the race in what, 16, 17 years ago. It honors first responders, military veterans, and service people, and the lives lost in 9-11. And so it's a very heavily 9-11-themed race. David had a very fertile mind. So um we've got 5K, 9.11 miles, half marathon, marathon, nine hours and eleven minutes, 24 hours and 100 miles. Okay. And uh one race starts when the first plane hit the first tower of the World Trade Center, another one when the second plane hit, another one when the plane hit the Pentagon. So we're we're all in on the connection. Oh, yes. No, it's it's interesting when when I put it on ultrasign up every year, I have to write to them and say, could you change the time of this to nine thirty-seven? Because that just doesn't exist in their system.

SPEAKER_01 49:27

Oh, they only accept like nine thirty.

SPEAKER_00 49:30

Every like ten or fifteen minutes, whatever. So I've I've got to have them go in and change to nine oh three and nine.

SPEAKER_02 49:35

And where does it where does it take place at?

SPEAKER_01 49:37

It's in Longmont, at Rogers Grove Park. Aaron Powell I've seen I've seen this race happening like on Ultra Sign up. I'm like, oh, there's a there's a little like looped hundred up there. I wonder what that's about. Well, I never knew I never knew the story behind it. Yeah, come on out. Yeah, we should. Yeah. No, maybe when I can run again.

unknown 49:56

Right.

SPEAKER_00 49:57

Well, the good news is that you can go as far as you want, and you know, because it's a 1.05 mile loop, you can quit any time you want if you have to. Is it fully paved on the loop or no? It's it's half paved and half crushed gravel. Oh, it's nice. So it is a very fast course. Uh I've had wheelchair athletes do it. Um the course record in the hundred until uh a couple till last year was held by Jason Romero, who is legally blind. So navigate it uh very well. So it is a welcoming race for everybody. Aaron Ross Powell That's cool.

SPEAKER_01 50:29

And you you direct it? Yep. So you took over uh David Clark's podcast and the race?

SPEAKER_00 50:35

Yep. When David passed away. And he passed away in May of 2020, and the race is in in September. So it was uh uh kind of a catapult into okay, we're gonna keep this race going.

SPEAKER_04 50:46

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 50:46

And fortunately, Mike Melton, who's our timer, he knew everything I needed to know, and we uh continue it on in both David's honor and as well as all the other people, and David's uh motto is patriotism without politics. So I think everybody can get behind that one. Yeah, especially these days. Yeah. Yep, totally.

SPEAKER_02 51:06

I like that. Yeah. That's great. Um You're no stranger to navigating injury as a runner.

Injuries Surgery And Coming Back

SPEAKER_02 51:14

When did your journey with the medical system and injury begin? Well, um, we're running with problems we have to talk about.

SPEAKER_00 51:25

Yes, yes, that's really I've had a lot of problems while traveling, but no. Um so I ruptured my quad tendon back um about 1995. And my left knee. Quad tendon is the one that holds your quadricep to your knee, basically. Uh back then doctors didn't have very I mean it's amazing because I've ruptured it twice, and it's interesting to see how the surgery has changed over the years. Yeah. Um I ended up having four surgeries to four surgeries, I guess, to fix that one initially. Um, maybe three, because I had another one to fix it the second time. But I I've had five surgeries total on that knee, and I've ruptured the quad tendon in the other knee as well. But in any case, so back in 95, so yeah, I 95 to 2000 were to 2002 really kind of lost years for me in terms of running. I mean um you know, they they they first they injected cortisone in there, which now we know you shouldn't do that. They did a partial lateral release, as they called it, and now we know you shouldn't do that. So um so yeah, I thought basically the first surgery is you know, they drill a hole through your knee and they take the tendon and they kind of thread it through and they tie a knot on the other side.

SPEAKER_04 52:37

Oof.

SPEAKER_00 52:38

Um the last surgery I had on there, now they drill four holes through your through there and they tie four little knots, if you would, but now they say it's bulletproof. Can't can't rupture that again. Good. We'll see. Yeah. So um Yeah, so it was interesting. When I had the last surgery, well, the the the next last, whatever, in 2000. It was literally January 2nd, 2000, so I remember it well. That's how I started the millennium. Um it was a two-year rehab. And yeah, so it was pretty insane.

SPEAKER_02 53:12

And uh And what do you what do you tell your doctors? Do you tell them I want to run a hundred miles again?

SPEAKER_00 53:19

Oh hell yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:22

What are their reactions? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:24

Uh they've come to accept me. Um my current surgeon who's who's fixed my Achilles that I ruptured, and he's fixed um he he's the guy who put the plate in my foot that is gonna come out on July 7th, that'll take out. Um he he kind of knows the way I am. And uh I I've had some very interesting conversations with him. You know, when I ruptured my Achilles, um you're supposed to be out for nine to twelve months. And after 11 weeks, I said to him, like, I think it feels really good. I think I can start running on this. And he's like, Yeah, yeah, I know what the way you are. So I said, Okay, so you can start running, you know, and obviously, you know, you would they want you to start really ginger. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:00

Half ten minutes or whatever, five minutes.

SPEAKER_00 54:02

Yeah, not even, you know, but but then I said, What about skiing? Because I'd be in a boot anyway. And he goes, Yeah, okay. And I said, Well, good, because I did last week.

SPEAKER_02 54:13

Oh my Bill is uh Bill's had Sammy on the pot his podcast.

SPEAKER_01 54:17

Oh, Sammy, I love Sammy.

SPEAKER_02 54:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 54:19

His stories just remind me of some of uh like Sammy and Chris McBride.

SPEAKER_01 54:24

Oh, just like yeah, just like constant dealing with the medical system that doesn't understand you. No, right? No, totally I feel the same way. Like recently I've been dealing with this um, you know, this high heart rate uh pos pot stuff. Yeah. Uh this orthostatic postural orthostatic tachycard. I can't get it out of my mouth. Um, and it's just been like, how do I tell that it just prevents me from running? It doesn't prevent me from living, doesn't prevent me from getting up out of bed, doesn't prevent me from doing anything normal in life. I can even climb stairs. I mean, I don't get I get a little light-headedness doing that, but very little, right? So normal life stuff. If I wasn't a runner, I wouldn't even know I was sick.

SPEAKER_00 55:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:04

But I can't run. Like a the heart rate just goes crazy. And I go into a doctor and I'm like, you know, this is these are my symptoms. And like, well, I mean, I've seen people that are worse than you. I don't know what to do with you, you know. You just can't run. You gotta see, you know, somebody else. Like it's hard to find a good somebody who cares about those simp that symptom set, about how like I just want to get back to running. And I think uh it's for me at least it's been tough to find the right doctor. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:32

I mean, you know, the first thing you said, John, was like, you yeah, sure, you're living, but I disagree in a way in that, you know, to me, r running is part of living. If you can't run, I mean Yeah. Oh, don't tell me that. No, no, I know, but no, but totally but but what I'm saying is when these docs tell you, oh yeah, you you're living, just don't run.

SPEAKER_02 55:52

Yeah, just don't run.

SPEAKER_00 55:52

No, yeah. It's like, no, screw that. I mean, yeah, I've told doctors.

SPEAKER_01 55:55

I grew up in a Jewish household, so it's like, oh, doctor, it hurts when I do this. And they'd obviously say, well, so don't do it anymore, right?

SPEAKER_00 56:04

Yeah, you can't really listen to that. Well, so so my Jewish parents are like, um they've never wanted me running.

SPEAKER_01 56:10

Really?

SPEAKER_00 56:11

Oh, yeah. No, they've always thought this whole thing was nuts. And if I've said to my dad, like, well, dad says, Have you been running? And he I go, well, no, I've been injured, he goes, good.

SPEAKER_01 56:21

My dad would say the same thing. Yeah. My dad would call, he would, he would say things like, I was like, Oh, do you want to go for a walk? He's like, No, I'm not stupid. Like, like he would he would call like exercise and like running stupid.

SPEAKER_00 56:35

And I really disliked that word. Well, uh, that must be a Jewish word that we didn't know about. My mom will not use the word Leadville. She just says, Are you going to do that stupid race again?

SPEAKER_03 56:44

Oh what is oh don't that is hilarious.

SPEAKER_01 56:52

But you are willing to make compromises to vacation with them to go on their cruises, and you have you do it in your way so that you can enjoy it and you can spend time with them. And I think that yeah, finding those compromises, obviously, maybe it's not as much of a two-way street, but it's a good you have to do it as a as a son, as a child, right? Like you kind of connect with your parents.

SPEAKER_00 57:15

Oh, yeah. No, you know, that like I say, they like to travel and the cruises work. But you know, so um uh as I mentioned, I've had two foot surgeries on my foot the last year. Um I I got a bunion and the bone didn't heal. It was an old story. But when I I've been talking to my dad about it, he's like, well, yeah, on vacation when you were doing all that running, that's what caused this. Yeah. Great. Well, yes. Well, yes, but also.

SPEAKER_01 57:41

I would have been running at home anyway. All right. I wouldn't have any injuries if I wasn't running, but I also wouldn't be having any fun.

SPEAKER_00 57:47

Right.

SPEAKER_01 57:48

You know?

SPEAKER_00 57:49

Yeah, no, it it is funny how uh you know, if they they're on a cruise, you know, they wake up at 10 o'clock or whatever, and I've already been out running and you know, had all these adventures. You know, I remember we were in Alaska one time, and um I I had a couple bear encounters on this run, and they're like, Oh yeah, sure you did. And so I've got visual evidence right here. I was the idiot standing there taking snapping pictures of the bear. Actually, they're two bear cubs, but yeah. Oh, not smart.

SPEAKER_01 58:17

No, of course not. No. No. No. I probably wouldn't have done that.

SPEAKER_03 58:21

Oh no, no, no, no, no. I would have uh gotten out of there.

SPEAKER_00 58:25

No, no, but like I said, I'm not averse to sketchy runs. Another one, Miranda, I actually just thought of. I know I'm changing the subject. Yeah, I was in we were in we were in Durban, South Africa. Um where the comrades start some years and ends up their years. Yep. Uh lovely waterfront, as I found out, but I didn't find that out at first. When I was on the ship, I said, Oh, look, here's this nice sounding road called Mahatma Gandhi Boulevard. Gotta be great, you know? And she takes you right to downtown Durban, which is where I wanted to go.

SPEAKER_01 58:53

It's like MLK. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:55

Well, Mahatma Gandhi Boulevard was so sketchy. And first first of all, it's it's five lanes one direction to downtown. Okay. Very long. It was so sketchy that I ran right in the middle of the road. Um, the I could I thought this it was too dangerous to run on the sidewalks with what was going on over there. So I ran right in the middle of the road with traffic coming from behind me. But it was like, that just seems safer. And then later on, I found I happened to see a runner at the corner of my eye. It's like, oh, I see, that's where I should have been running, up on the waterfront there, and everybody's out there, you know, like having a great day. And so a lot of black runners out there, too. It's like, okay, this is what it's supposed to be here. But have you ever run Comrades? No. It it was always on my bucket list, and then they moved it to the same time as Leadville. Oh, is it the same time now? Yeah. So maybe, maybe now's the time because I'm not going to do Leadville the hundred anymore. But um Why not? I'm not fast enough. Yeah. Yeah. You know what? The the uh it's it's I I was in such great shape the last couple times, and I just can't get to the cutoffs anymore.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:00

Those cutoffs are cutoffs are tight. When was your last finish?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:04

2015. 2015. Yeah. In a minute. And that one, by the way, I had had um I'd ruptured my quad tendon on on my other leg. And um I was not supposed to be running until May. And I was running, started running in January and finished Leadville that summer. And I was the last ass. You were the last person to finish. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:28

Well, what an honor. Oh, that is such an honor.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:31

You know, I don't know why I ever went back, because it doesn't get any better than that. I mean, I had I had 15 kids from my cross-country team all running out there. And um and I didn't know about the last ass thing. I thought that everybody's gone home. Everybody's finished and they're they've gone to the city.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:44

No.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:45

And I had no idea everybody's gonna be waiting for me. It's one of the best things about the sport. Oh, it is. Now I don't miss it. I'm there every year for it. But I had no idea back then because you went through and it's like almost deserted, and and I just assumed, okay, you know, Ken and Merrill Lee will be there at the finish, and that's about it. And and um, yeah, and people kept joining this group of 15 kids, you know, who knew my name, and and then you know, I'm getting close, and it's like, okay, I got four minutes to do like 200 yards, I can walk this in, and it's like, no crap, I gotta run. People are gonna everyone's there. Yeah, yeah, it was so cool. So that's fun. I mean oh go ahead. No, no, this is it was like I got to go on stage with um Ian Sharman had won the men's, I forget who won the women's, and then and me. It's like, what the hell? It's like it was so funny.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:31

Oh, that's great. We uh we help out. Well, I guess I mostly I help out with um doing this race uh Highlandsome down in uh Buna Vista on the communications and runner tracking director. So and we have a great uh golden hour. It's a great finish because the the awards aren't until after the race ends.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:51

Which is that's so everyone's already back.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:53

If you're ever if you ever are putting on 100, you put the awards an hour after the race ends, and then everyone sort of comes back to that last hour of the race. Nice and uh and it's just it's just incredible to have all the runners and all their crew there cheering those last people in. And I'm the and I'm in charge of runner tracking. So for me, my job doesn't end until everyone's off the course safely. Right. And so like I am, I'm very tired. I've been up for like 40 hours, and and I'm just like, I know this person's getting evacued off this section, this person dropped here, and we got two more on the road, and I'm just counting down runners because like once once they either drop or they finish, like I don't have to care anymore. But um, and so like it's really it's a big release for me when the last runner comes in, but the whole everyone's out there cheering them in. It's been really fun last few years. So yeah, I certainly think that the fact that we cheer more for the last people than the first people, like the leaders get almost an underwhelming amount of cheering.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:57

It's dark when they're finishing, everyone's in bed.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:01

Yeah, well, yeah. I went out there when David Roach was finishing last year in Leadville, and it's like, yeah, just nobody here. It's dark. Yeah, right. What time did he finish? Oh god, it was still daylight. I mean, it was ridiculous.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:15

He misses the fun of running overnight.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:17

This is the problem, right? Like um, I think Jim Walmsley experienced this when he went to UT and B. Because he had only really run the hundreds in the states that start in the morning. And he's so fast he never had to go into the night. He had never had to wear a hydration pack. So he goes to UTMB, a race that starts at 6 p.m., that is hard enough that you'll have to go like almost to, you know, to 20 hours for him, which would be a long run for him, you know, about seven hours longer than it takes him to finish uh Western. And he had to wear a hydration pack because it's so much more mountainous there. Right. And like he had to learn all these new skills that like we have to do just for these races. Oh, which is pretty funny.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:58

Yeah, that's what always gets me seeing like David Roach. I've seen him a couple of times at Leadville passing the other way. And it's like, wait a second, did I he didn't even have a handheld? I mean uh maybe he had a handheld, I don't know, but that's about it. And it's like, oh yeah, that's right. It's only an hour and a half between aid stations for the other.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:12

Yeah, for him. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:13

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:14

He he's uh he's also running on the edge there, you know. Like he's he's he's making a bet, right? That his that he can make it in between, he can hydrate enough in the aid. Maybe he holds like a little water bottle to go up hope. That's about it.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:28

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:28

Yeah. It's just a different type thing. Totally. Um at least from a planning perspective.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:36

Well, Bill, we have to talk about your podcast.

Keeping We Are Superman Alive

SPEAKER_01 1:04:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:39

So let's chat a little bit about what inspired you to take over this podcast. And we'll let's tell the listeners what the theme is too.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:48

Yeah, so um David Clark started the We Are Superman podcast, and um, yeah, it kind of went into all different directions. I mean, a lot of it was running, but a lot of it was kind of bad kind of related to his own history, which f po people have probably heard this, but he's a three hundred he was a 320-pound drug-addicted, fast food junkie alcoholic who um changed his life on basically after Christmas Eve one year when he couldn't wrap his kids pr Christmas presents. He realized what a piece of crap he was and uh decided to change. And he had actually um he was very successful in the furniture business. He he founded one of these uh mattress chains that you see advertising to this day and made millions, used to go on these fishing trips off Baja with you know, polishing off a bottle of uh uh Johnny Walker blue every every day kind of thing. And but he realized um yeah, he needed to change himself to be a decent father to his kids and be a decent person for the rest of the world. So turned himself into this hundred and sixty pound crazy endurance powerhouse, did just amazing, amazing things and was hugely informed. Influential. He wrote several books. He was on social media. He was on TV. Just developed a huge following because he had just amazing wisdom. And he was willing to put himself out there. I mean, on the 10th anniversary of his sobriety, he did like 10 epic things, including running Badwater, including he did um 383 laps on the track at Monarch High School over here to um for the 383 firefighters who died in the World Trade Center. He ran 48 hours straight on a treadmill. Um just all sorts of like amazing things. So uh yeah, he developed a real following because, like you say, he was he was out there. He was also extremely honest. You know, people always appreciated the fact that he was very honest about his own shortcomings and what he needed to change. And um he was just an amazing person, and he was a great friend to me. He was a huge um, you know, Yankees, Rangers, Giants, Knicks fan like I am. And I was thinking of him recently when the Knicks won the championship, how how he's probably just ecstatic, you know, over this happening. Finally. I mean, finally. It's I mean it didn't happen in his lifetime. Oh yeah. New York needed another championship, that's for sure. We needed any championship. I mean, we haven't had any in so long, you know. You know, it's it's like the scumbags in Boston or you know. And the Rockies beat them today, so you know, I hope all those Scumsox fans really And the Rockies are bad. Rockies are the worst team in baseball. And they lost. And the and the the Red Sox lost a series to them, so you know. Well, cheers to that. Heck yeah. Those scummy fans. But you know, in any case. So um in any case, David um in May of 2020, he he was having really bad back pain. And um we actually had just finished doing the audio book at a um uh a studio here in Boulder um recording the audio. Uh it was uh it was the third one, it's not the one of the ones. It was called Eat Shit and Die. Eat shit and die. So I I I edited the book and then we spent three days in the studio recording that, and and uh he could barely sit in a chair while we were recording it. And then the next week I drove him to an MRI and the doc said, You need to have surgery right away. And his uh he had a vertebrae uh pushing up against his spinal cord or something, but it should have been fairly routine back surgery, and he never came out of the hospital. Oh my god. It was uh one of the most screwed-up things I've ever seen.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:22

So um it was terrible.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:24

Yeah, so yeah, I wanted to keep David's legacy alive. So two of the things were um the American Heroes run, and the other was keeping his podcasts going. And we find people with similar stories to his, people who are coming back from adversities, and it could be any one of those things. It could be people with eating disorders or obesity or addictions or serious injuries or illnesses who go on and do run ultramarathons, they make Olympic teams, set national records, FKTs, or even start businesses that help people. And so um there's no shortage of people out there doing amazing things. And uh through the podcast, I meet so many amazing people. I mean, just jaw-dropping inspirational people all the time. And so um, yeah, so I I keep this going in David's honor, and the American Heroes Are On is definitely something in his honor. And and currently I'm working on a project. I have been talking about it for years, but I'm going to write what I'm calling his fourth book.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:22

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:23

And so I have asked all sorts of people who found themselves influenced by David to send me their stories, and I'm compiling those in one book so that I can go ahead and share that with everybody out there. They can they can learn from these amazing lessons that and you know, people who've gone through the kinds of addiction and the recovery that that he did have amazing insights. Um, you know, we were talking before about you know with the most popular podcast episodes. Well, the one that is the most popular one every year I have is with a guy named Gary Stawer. I don't know him.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:56

Yeah, I don't either.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:57

Yeah, Gary Um he's a really enigmatic kind of guy. He's super cool, but he once weighed 400 pounds. Oh, was very addicted. He ran Leadville um while drunk.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:09

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:10

Yeah. Oh he talks about going up Hope Pass with bottles of fireball in his hydration vest. Truly taking that fireball to a new level. Yeah, and you and that's what I said to him, and he goes, Yeah, but my alcoholic mind made perfect sense. And uh, you know, he eventually got sober, and then um he was gonna break 25 hours, get the big buckle one year, and he got within a few miles and just like I don't care anymore. And kind of walked it in and finished in 25 and change. Um yeah, just interesting guy, but he had such amazing, he has amazing insights. Um and I think when you go through those kind of life events, and and David did too. I mean, David had such amazing insights. So that's what I'm gonna share with people in the book. Um, I signed a contract with an editor. I'm a book editor myself. But um, yeah, like you know, we coaches, we we runners sometimes, we want to coach ourselves, and so sometimes it's better to have a coach help you. In this case, I've hired a book editor to help me actually write this book.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:08

Being an editor yourself doesn't mean you can edit yourself well. Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:12

Exactly. Yeah. Outside perspective always helps. Yeah.

unknown 1:11:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:16

Totally. No, she's got me doing things already. It's like, uh, I never thought of doing that before. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:20

Well, we'll definitely plug it when it comes out. You'll have to let us know so we can let our listeners know.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:26

I appreciate that so much. And we'll and if you guys are interested, the podcast is named We Are Superman. Correct. We'll uh we'll send a link in the show notes.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:36

It's on Spotify, right? It's on Spotify, Apple, Amazon, Podcast Addicts, you name it, every every platform. All the platforms. All the places. So I will just make it easy.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:45

I will link to it in the show notes so you all can find it. Yeah. I've listened to some episodes.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:50

And I'm interested, just a little topic change about your coaching. So you coach a uh high school cross-country

Coaching Gifted High School Runners

SPEAKER_01 1:11:59

team?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:59

I coach high school cross-country and track.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:01

So I'm the head coach at a school called Stargate. So it's over like a I-25 and 144th. It is a uh charter school for gifted learners. So I've got the uh nerds of the nerds. They're the ones going to a school named Stargate. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know what the name's all about, but whatever. So there's there was a television show, I assume.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:24

I guess. I don't know. I'm just there to coach. Do you enjoy coaching high schoolers?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:30

I've been coaching high school since 1989. Wow. So uh yeah, no, it it's always interesting. It's that the kids are great. Um anybody ever become an ultrarunner? Yes. As a matter of fact, just in the last couple days, I had a former runner of mine who I wasn't really sure he was going to continue running beyond high school kind of thing. Finished a 50 mile or anytime he was planning to do the Bryce Canyon 100 coming up. Um I've got another kid I used to coach who's been doing ultras and does a lot of crazy mountaineering stuff in South America and such. So um I had a girl I used to coach who um I coached her to uh finish her first marathon recently down, and she ended up winning it.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:11

Oh what?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:12

Yeah. And um she she finished about five minutes slower than what I anticipated. And she said, Oh God, I felt terrible the whole time. I said, Well, yeah, the weather was really bad for the marathon. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:23

Do you expect it to feel good? Yeah. Who ever feels good running a road marathon? Yeah. Nobody ever.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:30

And the weather was terrible. So I said, Yeah, of course you ran, you know, didn't feel great, whatever. And then we found out later on she was actually three weeks pregnant at the time. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:38

So maybe that accounted for stuff that's pregnancy has a strong effect on the body. You know.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:46

From my personal experience.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:50

But yeah, no, so I've had kids who are going on and doing cool things, which is great. I mean, that's that's why you're in this uh the coaching game, basically. Um, I I tell every kid who tells me, Coach, I'm never gonna run past high school, I'm done with this. I said, You'll see, you'll be coming back to me somewhere between that freshman 15 and freshman 25. And you'll be saying, Coach, I feel out of shape. And they always do it. I'm out of shape. Could you send me a half-marathon training program? I'm like, aha, I got you. I told you. So so it so it is cool when you see that. So and then, you know, uh I mean, uh it always amazes me when uh if I'm running a race and how many former athletes will come out and be my crew. You know, when I ran Leadville uh the last two years ago, I had one girl came out from Kansas City and another uh um God, where'd they come from? But you know, again, they come from out of town just to help crew me and everything, which is so cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:43

Your cross-country team has like been your crew through the years? Oh, yeah. So they were there the first time at Leadville.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:49

No, I I I remember in 2010, my uh crew was a high school team, and I mean I was, you know, the usual Krabby and moving, you know, the whole words. And they have to be like, that was the best time ever. We had, are you kidding? I mean, like, how could that be fun? But they they had a ball, these kids. So, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:06

It can be fun. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:08

What was funny though was like one of them opened up the trunk of their car, and you know, at the end of the uh race, you know, the eight stations closed down, and a lot of times they're saying to people, yeah, just take the food kind of thing. Yeah, because they can't keep it. Oh my god, this one kid, he opened up the trunk of his car, and I swear to God, it looked like he chopped at Sam's Club that day. I mean, it's like just half-open Oreos and and chips and weren't open, they were like you know, unopened stuff. There was like a like one of these giant bags of pretzels there and everything. I'm like, what the hell are you gonna do with that? Yeah. I actually confiscated a lot of it. We're gonna be using this at our home across country meets to feed the other kids there kind of thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:43

For the rest of the year.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:44

Yeah, they thought young was like, eh, let's just take everything. That's you know, it it's fun. But yeah, they're uh they're interesting. When I ran Leadville in 2015, I was the last asked. Part of the problem was that they gave me the wrong headlamp. And so at the time I was losing my night vision out. Oh, yeah. I had to have surgeries to basically be able to see well at night again. In fact, I still have trouble. That's why I kind of wear hat indoors because lights like this kind of drive me crazy. Oh, I could have turned those off. No, that's what that's what the hat's for. But uh in any case, the um kid gives me the wrong headlamp, and uh I had to like the kid who was pacing me literally narrated my way down Hope Pass. Like you know, tree on the left or going right, rock on the right, we're going to the left. And and so uh I'm just literally tippy-toeing my way down Hope Pass. Got into Twin Lakes within four minutes of the cutoff, and I was within four minutes of the cutoff every aid station the rest of the way, all the way in. But you made it. I made it. Ah, it was super, super stressful.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:41

That's yeah, that's it.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:45

I think 30 minutes ahead of the cutoff at Twin Lakes 2. Yeah. And then just couldn't keep it going with the altitude overnight, you know. Yeah, usually if you make it to Twin Lakes with that kind of cushion. That's what we're usually okay. That's what we say, but then you know, especially for people maybe who aren't used to the altitude or or the the you know the dust, there's a lot of other things that can still impact you past Twin Lakes, right? Sure. Uh one question I wanted to ask, I know Miranda's itching to close, but is you've been in the sport for so long. What

How Ultrarunning Has Changed

SPEAKER_01 1:17:19

what changes do you have you seen? I know we talk a lot we talk a lot about the changes in the sport, right? Yeah, a lot more money, a lot more people, but like what's something people don't think about? Like, what's the changes you you notice that are most impactful to you?

SPEAKER_00 1:17:34

You know, gear and nutrition, I guess. Um you know, I was I was telling some folks uh in my adult running group recently how um when I used to do long runs, I used to go out to the Highline Canal in Denver and I drive out there early and put water bottles under all the bridges so I'd be able to, you know, because we didn't have hydration vests or belts even. And so um, and then I'd do the run, then I have to go drive back out there and pick up my bottles again. And um you know, so now and then they had the belts, and you I had the you know, the big bottle in the back, I had the fuel belts, which had like six little seven-ounce bottles all the way around. Yeah, but that's all we had. That's all you had. Yeah, and then you see the hydration vests, and then even like the nutritional aspect, um, and I could go back and tell you stories about my old I had an old uncle who ran in the uh he was on the Olympic team in the twenties and thirties. Oh really? And tell you about the nutrition then, which was just like salted lemonade. Oh no, they didn't eat. They just didn't eat no, they didn't eat. In fact, they all the marathons back then started at noon. And so you're supposed to get like a good breakfast. Yeah, so they ate a steak for breakfast.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:43

That was what they did. And they did not drink. It was believed that that would give you cramps. I mean, I had a high school soccer coach tell me the same thing back in those old days when we used to have leather shin guards and everything. Um he once told me, like, well, Stahl, if it's it's really hot out and you drink cold water, said, What happens if you pour cold water in the hot radiator of your car? And I go, Well, it cracks. He goes, There you go.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:07

Oh, that won't take. You are not a radiator. You are a human body.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:14

Yeah. So but so nutritionally, like I kind of grew up um eating real food in races because there weren't all I'm I still remember the first time they had power bars. That was like the first stuff. And so I'm running a pike feed marathon, and somebody had taken all these power bars out of the wrappers and made them into like a huge it was like the size of a globe you see in a classroom. And you'd literally go up and claw power bar off of this, and that's that's your, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:39

Oh, power bars.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:40

Yeah, that's all that but but back, but like I say, I so even to this day, I still typically rely on real food. I uh I'll eat the gels and such now and then, but I I've done entire 24-hour races eating nothing but fruit, the like the the bowls of cut-up fruit you get from the supermarket. Um, because I just kind of grew up eating that kind of food. So um and then just even like you know, things you put in your water bottle. I mean, we never had stuff like that. And now I've also learned that because of the cramping issues, I've had muscle cramping issues, how I've got to really salt things up, but we just suffered with muscle cramps and never really kind of knew why.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:16

Oh my god. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:18

I mean, obviously the atmosphere's changed. I mean, everything, you know, the timing and the people. Um I I think the coolest change I've seen is when I start first started running ultras, it was a response to the fact that as you get older, you get slower.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:30

So you can't do the marathon, you go longer. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:33

And for the longest time, it was just nothing but a bunch of old white guys out there. And now you see more women, you see more people of color, you see people all shapes and sizes out there. I mean, sometimes in Leadville, I've looked and said, this looks like the start of a community 5K. You know, these people don't look like they can finish 100 miles. But I mean they do. Most of them don't. Yeah, no, true. But but but they're out there putting themselves out there, which is awesome. They're all they're all attempting it. Yeah. That that that to me is one of the most um noticeable changes, is just the different complexion to bad pun there of the people who are out there running these races now, which is super, super cool.

unknown 1:21:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:15

Well, Bill, this has been a great conversation.

Travel Advice And Closing Thoughts

SPEAKER_02 1:21:17

And we like to close our podcast by having our guests give our listeners a piece of advice. And it doesn't have to be running related, but just sharing a piece of advice. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:29

Fair enough. Um I would say challenge yourself with travel. Um I've had such great travel experiences. And I look like it. I mean, traveling is challenging, especially these days, but you know, just you know, organizing everything. But you know, um, I've taken so many trips where I have had no plan. I've just gotten on a plane basically, and like literally, like when I was doing that drive across Spain, Andorra, and France, literally that morning, I was like, okay, I'm gonna go to this city, I'm gonna book a hotel right here on either Hopper or Hotels.com. I'm gonna drive to that city, I'll go explore, and then I'll, you know, go go take go wake up the next morning, take a run, sit in the hotel with breakfast, and be picking the next spot I'm gonna go. Um it's a challenge and it's kind of scary. I mean, especially I mean I've traveled with other people, but I've you know, I've I've gone a lot of trips with 20-year-olds, which is always interesting. We've had we've had great trips. Okay, fantastic. I'd spent three and a half weeks in Asia with two 24-year-olds with nothing but a backpack. Um, you know, and you know, expand your comfort level. You know, it doesn't have to be a an all-inclusive cruise. It doesn't have to be, you know, all everything figured out, but go challenge yourself. And you know, it's it's amazing experiences you have. Something will screw up almost every time, and you know what? It all works out. You have to figure them out. Yeah, it all works out.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:49

Great advice. I did a backpacking trip across Europe with a couple of my girlfriends when I was 21, like that. Cool. No plans, just let's go.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:58

I love it. Yeah. Well, thank you, Bill. This was really nice. Thank you for having me. I love this. This is great. Yeah. And I hope everyone checks out your podcast, uh We Are Superman, and um we'll have it in the show notes.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:11

Well, likewise, everybody who listened to this on the We Are Superman podcast, please check out running with problems. Yeah. Um, you know, I I knew I had some problems. So, you know, some of it's mental, of course, but you know. I mean, so do we.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:22

I mean, honestly, like this podcast is about as a runner, you just encounter all these problems. And so many of the podcasts that I listen to are just about they're all the amazing things. There's they're the the winners, the people who train well, the you know, everybody who's doing great. And along that way, there's people who aren't posting on Instagram because they're not running right now, or there's somebody who's a little injured and they just can't run their best. And they're we always put together out this good face, this public persona. Right. And I think that in this podcast, I wanted to make sure that we talked about how there are everyone is out there dealing with something. And if you can admit to it and you can talk about it, you can be on this podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:09

So that's that's what we're here for. Yep. Well, we all have our problems with physical, mental, what have you. But no, you guys are doing a great job. And uh, yeah, I've I've loved listening to some of your episodes. Thank you. I mean, not just the uh Grand Canaria. But even no, do you guys dive into some different areas too? I mean, I kind of enjoyed that whole back and forth you guys had between Sage Canada and um, the doping debacles.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:32

We just dropped, we got a lot of uh feedback from our community about that one. So we just dropped uh intro to another podcast today that will uh address some of the feedback.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:44

Oh, okay. That should be interesting. Yeah, because there's no winning position in there, so yeah, everybody. Definitely not. No. It's a gray area, right? Oh, yeah. No, I I can I could send us all from JEG with that, but I'll let you do that in your own.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:01

You bet. Thanks. Thanks all for listening. See you next time.